Obsidian, I feel sorry for you.

Legbiter · April 4, 2015

You're all being very boring. I'm sorry your ideology is flawed and your worldview is crumbling in the face of actual social progress on issues like this, but at least try to be dignified about it.

:lol:

Longknife · April 4, 2015

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/31dr3h/re_obsidian_here_is_the_opinion_of_the_actual/cq0v55a

My argument is based on political surveys. SJWs make up a miniscule portion of the population. What is your argument (or proof) for why the opposite should be true for the gaming market.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. The sole reliance on definitive proof for any claim is irrational and clumsy.

They're quoting logical fallacies that led the US to get into a war with Iraq as a means to be mad at Obsidian.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Longknife

Shake Appeal · April 4, 2015

Dear everyone, it doesn't matter what the personal feelings and beliefs of the offended party are in this case. Facts or opinions about her are not relevant. All she did was draw attention to something that Obsidian fully admitted should have been better vetted and not allowed in the game, even if she personally never saw it or was not offended by it.

Independent of this person's tweets, the content in question could be found objectionable and hostile to people who experience hostility and prejudice every single day of their lives. Changing it was the appropriate and -- more importantly -- the kind thing to do. Obsidian made the right call. It's what any responslbe developer would have done.

You need to move on, and stop being regressive jerks living down to the worst reputation of videogame and especially "hardcore" CRPG fans. This is not a issue of free speech or "self-censorship." This is not an issue of Obsidian "caving." This is not a front in your inane culture war. (But just to be clear, you are losing ground in that war every single day. History is leaving you behind.)

This is about respecting the lived experience of humans other than you. Broaden your perspective.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Shake Appeal

Base7 · April 4, 2015

In other news, patronizing is the name of the game these days.

PrimeJunta · April 4, 2015

@Shake Appeal: Good post.

Except I disagree, this was a skirmish on the front of the culture war. We won a resounding victory, and thanks to the rage of the GG contingent surely causing Obsidian and others to be more careful in the future, the entire gaming culture shifted a little.

Observe, boys, girls, and others: this is how the culture changes.

Edited April 4, 2015 by PrimeJunta

Katarack21 · April 4, 2015

Today I ate a bowl of strawberry miniwheats in chocolate milk; it was tasty.

I say that because I feel very certain that it's about as meaningful as anything else stated in this thread.

PrimeJunta · April 4, 2015

(As own goals go, this wasn't quite up to the level of GG provoking Intel to invest $200M in a diversity program, but still pretty good as such things go. If only all the enemies of progress were as hopelessly inefficient. I was a lot more worried about gamer culture before, but since GG they've been pretty much doing our work for us.)

Emerwyn · April 4, 2015

The mistake is caring about what social media attention wh0res say. I've said in several posts that I don't like the tombstone messages because they feel OOC and immersion breaking, but if I was Obsidian I wouldn't have caved in to anyone's demands. They shouldn't have been in the game to start with, but now they are, so leave it as that, and learn from it for the next game.

Longknife · April 4, 2015

Dear everyone, it doesn't matter what the personal feelings and beliefs of the offended party are in this case. Facts or opinions about her are not relevant. All she did was draw attention to something that Obsidian fully admitted should have been better vetted and not allowed in the game, even if she personally never saw it or was not offended by it.

Independent of this person's tweets, the content in question could be found objectionable and hostile to people who experience hostility and prejudice every single day of their lives. Changing it was the appropriate and -- more importantly -- the kind thing to do. Obsidian made the right call. It's what any responslbe developer would have done.

You need to move on, and stop being regressive jerks living down to the worst reputation of videogame and especially "hardcore" CRPG fans. This is not a issue of free speech or "self-censorship." This is not an issue of Obsidian "caving." This is not a front in your inane culture war. (But just to be clear, you are losing ground in that war every single day. History is leaving you behind.)

This is about respecting the lived experience of humans other than you. Broaden your perspective.

To be fair, I don't think either side should be claiming moral superiority....which is kind of what you're doing.

However, if I can look at a situation and at least understand why they might've wanted to choose the path they chose, then I probably shouldn't act outraged if they simply didn't choose my favored means of solving the problem.

If it were my call, I would've left the limerick in as a statement about people's rights to express themselves, then planned work on a transgender companion for an expansion, as a means to show there's no transphobia going on and it's merely a matter of showing respect for both the transgender community and for those who wish to tell bolder jokes. Doesn't mean I'mma flip if they use another tact.

Kal Adan · April 4, 2015

@Shake Appeal: Good post.

Except I disagree, this was a skirmish on the front of the culture war. We won a resounding victory, and thanks to the rage of the GG contingent surely causing Obsidian and others to be more careful in the future, the entire gaming culture shifted a little.

Observe, boys, girls, and others: this is how the culture changes.

You mean badmouthing something until things are the way one likes them to be? Isn't that what kids do to get what they want?

PrimeJunta · April 4, 2015

@Longknife That would've been a really cool way to address it.

A wee bit more work than changing the text on a memorial though.

Sakai · April 4, 2015

Dear everyone, it doesn't matter what the personal feelings and beliefs of the offended party are in this case. Facts or opinions about her are not relevant. All she did was draw attention to something that Obsidian fully admitted should have been better vetted and not allowed in the game, even if she personally never saw it or was not offended by it.

Independent of this person's tweets, the content in question could be found objectionable and hostile to people who experience hostility and prejudice every single day of their lives. Changing it was the appropriate and -- more importantly -- the kind thing to do. Obsidian made the right call. It's what any responslbe developer would have done.

You need to move on, and stop being regressive jerks living down to the worst reputation of videogame and especially "hardcore" CRPG fans. This is not a issue of free speech or "self-censorship." This is not an issue of Obsidian "caving." This is not a front in your inane culture war. (But just to be clear, you are losing ground in that war every single day. History is leaving you behind.)

This is about respecting the lived experience of humans other than you. Broaden your perspective.

It's interesting that before the word "tolerance" meant being respectful of other people's opinions, even if you disagree with them or they might offend you. But now it would seem tolerance means self-censorship because there's someone, somewhere who's feelings might get hurt. People who advocate these changes say they are for inclusivity and diversity, yet all they do is trying to silence different opinions. They want the world to look exactly how they want it. You say "broaden your perspective" yet it is you who doesn't want to do that. I've seen many good arguments why that limerick was not in any way transphobic, but not a single one why it is. So who's perspective needs to be broadened?

Nosmirc · April 4, 2015

Longknife, on 04 Apr 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:
They're quoting logical fallacies that led the US to get into a war with Iraq as a means to be mad at Obsidian.

That's one person. On a sub of 32 thousand people, with wildly varying opinions on this matter, ranging from boycotting Obsidian, to supporting Obsidian over this. That doesn't seem fair to generalize that entire group over the posts of one person. There are idiots everywhere.

Longknife · April 4, 2015

@Longknife That would've been a really cool way to address it.

A wee bit more work than changing the text on a memorial though.

I only suggest it because Obsidian has an excellent track record with such things and has shown a clear desire to represent such groups in the past. Half of the normal human characters in New Vegas are gay, neither female is sexualized, many more random NPCs are also gay. It sounds like something Obsidian would legitimately be interested in doing, hence the suggestion.

It feels "better" to me than simply cutting the limerick out, because the limerick is a matter of censorship vs. a lack thereof. Pulling it already aggrivates one side of the argument, but leaving it in and appealing to the opposite side of the argument in another way sees that both parties are happy. Thus they're no longer in direct conflict with each other and everyone can fart sunshine and rainbows.

Too bad hindsight is 20/20

Kimuji · April 4, 2015

How this is still a thing after we've heard the second half of the story from Firedorn himself? All this ****storm was based on truncated facts. Now we have the whole story and yet people still haven't changed thier tune? Even better now they are turning against Firedorn... Can't people just admit that they made a mistake instead of looking for more fallacious reasons to be mad at Obisidian?

Edited April 4, 2015 by Kimuji

ChipMHazard · April 4, 2015

Observe, boys, girls, and others: this is how the culture changes.

And that culture would be? You do understand that the joke made no mention of transgender in any shape or form?

Can't people just admit that they made a mistake instead of looking for more fallacious reasons to be mad at Obisidian?

Why on earth would I admit to having made a mistake when I stand by everything I've written on the subject up to this point? Well except for that one jibe.

Edited April 4, 2015 by ChipMHazard

Longknife · April 4, 2015

Longknife, on 04 Apr 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:
They're quoting logical fallacies that led the US to get into a war with Iraq as a means to be mad at Obsidian.

That's one person. On a sub of 32 thousand people, with wildly varying opinions on this matter, ranging from boycotting Obsidian, to supporting Obsidian over this. That doesn't seem fair to generalize that entire group over the posts of one person. There are idiots everywhere.

I'm in that group of 32,000 people. I'm just not one to not be critical of my own groups. When news of this broke out? I was critical of Obsidian because I disagreed with how it was done. After Firedorn's input, that was enough for me.

Now? Now I'm critical of how GamerGate is handling it because they seem out for blood and incapable of calming down even when some evidence suggests it's time to do so. Don't get me wrong; to generalize the entire group because of the idiots I've encountered would be a terrible mistake, as it would be with any group. However, I do highlight that post because sadly this is not an anomaly at the moment. I've been getting spammed with downvotes for even suggesting everyone should calm down and try and communicate rather than just screaming about boycotts against Obsidian.

If this hurts them enough to boycott, so be it. However, I also find that a tad naive, because I truly believe any other game developer or company would've handled the situation the same. So if their plan is to boycott anyone who doesn't share their ideology enough, they're just gonna alienate a lot of companies very quickly.

Divinehammer · April 4, 2015

(As own goals go, this wasn't quite up to the level of GG provoking Intel to invest $200M in a diversity program, but still pretty good as such things go. If only all the enemies of progress were as hopelessly inefficient. I was a lot more worried about gamer culture before, but since GG they've been pretty much doing our work for us.)

What exactly is the end goal of the social justice clique?

Do all games need to represent all groups all the time? Do games have to be suitable for "everyone"?

I genuinely am curious what the end game is.

aineko · April 4, 2015

Not really. The posts here have nothing on some of the insane Twitter users out there. One of my personal favourites was the guy joking about hanging white men being used as pinatas, right after Robin Williams hung himself. Who even thinks that, let alone posts it on Twitter?

Just because someone is more insane, doens't mean it's ok to be slightly less insane. I am disappointed too with the whole thing, but if this is all it takes for some people to go ballistic on Obsidian, well then how they are better than the people who started it?

I don't think it's really just about this small thing, it's about everything else that has been happening outside Obsidian at the same time. The day before there was also a mini-scandal around Liongate, I think there was also some stuff over comic books over the past couple of weeks, and for months there has been this growing tension in the videogame industry.

Bottom line is Obsidian was screwed the moment Josh Sawyer decided to get involved in the Twitter drama. Obsidian should have ignored the nonsense, just like they do 99.9% of the other idiotic complaints people make across the internet. Instead they turned themselves into a lighting rod for people's frustrations over the amount of influence that a small group of lunatics appear to have on videogames. I love their games but they really mishandled this whole thing.

Answermancer · April 4, 2015

Not really. The posts here have nothing on some of the insane Twitter users out there. One of my personal favourites was the guy joking about hanging white men being used as pinatas, right after Robin Williams hung himself. Who even thinks that, let alone posts it on Twitter?

That's bull****, you're just falling into the same trap as everyone else in this mess and refusing to see even an inch of the other side's point while maintaining that your side is 100% free of blame.

Holy ****, I've been reading these threads all day and they are so incredibly depressing. There's nothing quite like reading pages upon pages where 80% of the people on each side seem completely ****ing insane and unreasonable to you. Jesus I swear, SJWs have no empathy for anyone who isn't 100% on point with their agenda, but many of the gamers on here and other places have no empathy for anyone they don't immediately identify with as a part of their own "hardcore gamer" tribe.

Yeah the twitter-er is a ****ty person who tweets ****ty things, I wouldn't want to be friends with her, but she's not some ****ing genocidal monster, nor a disinterested party "just looking for attention" since she's been playing the game for a while (she posted a screenshot of steam with something like 18 hours). All the "#killallmen" stuff is clearly trolling to rile up white men (I know, since I'm a white man and it riled me up) and make a "point" about the very ****ing thing people are dismissing here: the ability for words to hurt people. I think it's a ****ty thing to spew that kinda stuff out into the ether, but then I think being intentionally rude or cruel to people is a ****ty thing to do regardless of who they are.

Meanwhile Firedorn's poem was not particularly offensive, but it could certainly be read to be kinda dickish about trans people. Indeed, Firedorn says on this blog that the character of "Firedorn" is in fact a clueless homophobe, and the memorial was showing a character like that getting what he deserved. Which is fine, but that's hardly obvious when the context is 6 ****ing lines of text right? It doesn't exactly make it clear that "Firedorn" the character is an unreasonable ****, just like the twitter girl doesn't make it clear that she's just trolling to let off steam.

So yeah, "killallmen" is crazy, but also obviously not literal. But acting like "killallmen" is literal is no different than her acting like the joke is literally transphobic. They both show massive lack of self-awareness and basic empathy for other people.

And all the people screaming for Obsidian's head over this because of "censorship" or because they fear the PC police look just as bad here as the ****ty twitter-twit. They act like game devs need to cater to their every whim, and apparently if you even consider for a moment how your words might affect the feelings of different people, you're clearly just a sellout to the PC police and you must be boycotted to stop the pernicious spread of "censorship".

Even if it's not actual game content they designed.

Even if they actually took the time to talk to the backer in question, and come up with a replacement in better taste that actually is a jab at the hypersensitive crowd.

Even if the backer was okay with it.

That's insane. It is marginally less insane than the twitter SJW people being hypersensitive to the merest whiff of bigotry and treating all men like excrement, but only until the bigoted slurs come out and that didn't take long at all.

For the record I am a backer as well, and I think they handled this about as well as they could have all things considered, outside of maybe leading with the fact that they spoke to Firedorn before all this got out of hand.

If this affected in-game content I'd be concerned, but not everything needs to be a slippery slope, there's a "slippery slope fallacy" for a reason. Freaking out over this particular thing to the point of boycott campaigns and crazy people calling to "make an example" of Obsidian is bat**** crazy, and in my opinion no less bat**** crazy than SJWs acting like men are the only problem with the world.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Answermancer

Longknife · April 4, 2015

How this is still a thing after we've heard the second half of the story from Firedorn himself? All this ****storm was based on truncated facts. Now we have the whole story and yet people still haven't changed thier tune? Even better now they are turning against Firedorn... Can't people just admit that they made a mistake instead of looking for more fallacious reasons to be mad at Obisidian?

Another thing that's been going on is his posts are being picked apart and his words twisted. Take a look at this:

http://i.imgur.com/lfie3XH.jpg

The underlined is what's being focused on. It's being used to argue that he was coerced or pressured or forced in some way to remove it. You could argue that he was pressured and coerced by the people who complained about it on twitter I guess, but the problem is people are running with it and basically saying Obsidian coerced/pressured/forced him and that Obsidian's crime was approaching him about the post to begin with.

Archaven · April 4, 2015

What a sad world we lived in. Please leave Obsidian alone. They need to focus on making the best game and not a target for SJWs

Gorgon · April 4, 2015

I'm worried long term, in a general sense, that being too sensitive to who you may potentially insult is going to make everything too safe, boring and irellevant.

the first rule if you are trying to create something interesting is : don't try to please everybody.

If you need to make concessions as a game developer to avoid becoming a target for a boycot campagin then that's what you are going to do, and that's why we can't have nice things. I don't think the limerick is a big deal, in fact I don't think it's anything but this weeks soon to be forgotten drama, but since we are raising a general issues that are also relevant to other art and entertainment media.

Kimuji · April 4, 2015

@Answermancer:

Exactly, everyone is blowing this absolutely out of proportion. The truth is that the "scandal" has been hijacked by both sides.They are both using this and the people involved as a simple mean, mere tools, to fuel their own wars and interests. It is all just a excuse in order for both sides to go at each other's throat. Obsidian, we the backers, the people who love this games are all collateral damage in their stupid war and they don't give a damn about us.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Kimuji

takamorisan · April 4, 2015

Well regarding this ruckus, I keep promising myself to avoid this debacle, but I still get myself going in.

Since when Video games turned into a holligan fight? SJWxGG it sound like two retarded holligan groups decided to get themselves in a street fight, making the people that just want to watch the damn game look bad.

I just see this holier than thou behavior from both sides and makes me sick.

Yeah I'm not going to lie the PR work made by Obsidian wasn't the best, they should had put in the damn patch notes, since this thing is a PR nightmare and the CEO should had let Firedorn express himself in his main post instead of saying that it was "process" fault. It sounded like Obsidian wanted to throw him under the bus, one backer that invested 500 dollars to make this possible along with other of course.

But hell the solution for this is actually ****ting the forums and asking for boycott?Are you guys ****ing insane?

What kind of message you want to pass? I will submit you through force if you don't do our liking?

Wake the **** up.

Obsidian, I feel sorry for you.

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