Didn't realize I was paying to join late beta...

[Schakar]

 

I just see no reason to defend selling a broken product.

 

I see no reason to call a product that isn't broken broken.

 

Clearly your experience has been suboptimal and I completely support your ability to bring this issue to the attention of Obsidian. But a game that people have been able to beat, a game that people have been able to complete without a showstopping bug isn't broken (which is, I suppose, the entire gist of my point).

 

The problem is, that even if some might never find a problem it still can be there . And as long as the problem is somewhere in the air ... the product is called broken.

 

Toyota had to call back 2.27 million cars world wide as ONE custumer in Japan had problems with his airback. So 2.269.999 people had no problems but 1 had.

But you would say: "there is no problem as I'm one of the 2.269.999 who aren't effected" .

 

"I am blind and can't see the world. And as I see no world ... THERE IS NO WORLD!!" *har har har* .

[termokanden]

Yeah the old "works on my computer" is not a good argument.

 

To be fair, the reason I've not run into the game-breaking bugs is because I've been in the forums and am in the know about them.

[Amentep]

I don't even disagree that some of these bugs are game-breaking, I'm just glad they're likely fixed tomorrow.

 

I don't disagree that some of the bugs are game-breaking either.

 

That doesn't mean the game is broken though.  This may sound like semantic nonsense, but to me a game being broken implies that it is, in essence, a paper weight.  It won't play and there is no way to make it play.  Or if it does play it can never be played to completion.  I'd even call the uninstall bug of PoR2001 broken since the consequence of that bug was so very heavy.

 

But a bug can be game breaking and not break the game.  When I had my quest item eaten about 20 hours into Arcanum and I had no way to progress the essential quest, that broke my game.  Other people had completed the game.  I restarted and following tips on how not to encounter the bug got past that part (I don't recall it being fixed at that point).  It was a game breaking bug; the game itself was not broken (even if the systems were broken).

 

 

The problem is, that even if some might never find a problem it still can be there . And as long as the problem is somewhere in the air ... the product is called broken.

 

Toyota had to call back 2.27 million cars world wide as ONE custumer in Japan had problems with his airback. So 2.269.999 people had no problems but 1 had.

But you would say: "there is no problem as I'm one of the 2.269.999 who aren't effected" .

 

"I am blind and can't see the world. And as I see no world ... THERE IS NO WORLD!!" *har har har* .

A recall was issued for something that was defective (in the case of the airbags, a design that was flawed in certain environments).  It didn't mean the airbag was broken - it could work, it just didn't work properly.  It was flawed.

 

But again, I suppose we're getting into semantics arguments about how we interpret language at this point, so I'll probably bow out (barring something that I just *have* to comment on; you know how it is).

[Schakar]

Well, the car of this 1 Japanes nearly burned down. If my car nearly burns down because of an airbag ... I call it VERY broken *g* .

[Nortalud]

 

You want a bug free game? Don't play it from day one.

 

The above is the PC gaming equivalent of victim-blaming.

 

"You want a bug free game? Don't play it from day one release it without adequate QA & bug fixing." is how that should read.

[Grimreapo]

So yeah, I heard Nintendo getting mention of being bug/glich free, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TbOpNBuRbA

 

Even after 30 years they are finding new bugs:

 

Heck, even AVGN did a whole piece of bugs (NSFW):

 

And you know that most speed runs of Nintendo games are based around glitches (even modern ones, check out the majora's mask speed runs).  The only big difference between then and now is the internet as people can quickly commentate about bugs, if you play a game that is buggy and you dont *know* what is bugged you will think it then you could think its less buggy than a game which a fewer bugs but your friends noted them out to you so it seems to be more buggy... 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Grimreapo

[Nortalud]

 

Again dear Sir you come back into explaining in details successfulness of their testing procedures and I say again it is not my concern. They are a company. It is their business how the go about it. There is an infinite number of possibilities. What I expect as a costumer is the end product to be in reasonably good state. It is not. Core functionalities of an rpg are broken.

 

And again my fine fellow, I say that the core functionality isn't broken, people have beat the game without the issues you've experienced and your seeming wish for a bug free game would never be achieved unless Obsidian never released the game.  No amount of additional time with the product would cure what ills you now with respect to your game experience.

 

Are you saying that the major bugs which are apparently being fixed in a patch today could not have been identified and corrected by Obsidian pre-release, regardless of any additional time and resources they may have chosen to devote to testing and debugging?

Or are you saying that it's impossible to ever reach a point where PoE is entirely free from all bugs and errors of every magnitude and description? Or something else entirely?

[knallfix]

 

 

You want a bug free game? Don't play it from day one.

 

The above is the PC gaming equivalent of victim-blaming.

 

"You want a bug free game? Don't play it from day one release it without adequate QA & bug fixing." is how that should read.

 

Consoles aren't better

 

But yeah ... 30+ hours and one single crash and thats it.

Nothing broke my game ...

 

And as always ... as harsh as it might sound ... biggest bug often is the one with the mouse & keyboard infront of the screen.

[Guest BugsVendor]

 

 

 

You want a bug free game? Don't play it from day one.

 

The above is the PC gaming equivalent of victim-blaming.

 

"You want a bug free game? Don't play it from day one release it without adequate QA & bug fixing." is how that should read.

 

Consoles aren't better

 

But yeah ... 30+ hours and one single crash and thats it.

Nothing broke my game ...

 

And as always ... as harsh as it might sound ... biggest bug often is the one with the mouse & keyboard infront of the screen.

 

 

I was almost finished with this discussion but when I see stupidity of this magnitude I just can't resist.

 

This is my flout that I bought and played their broken product? Where does this reasoning come from?

 

What did I do wrong? Please explain.

 

I paid.

 

I downloaded it and installed it.

 

I tried to play it several times alt-tabbing constantly to check tech forum.

 

I missed Raedic's Hold

 

I am super careful not to double click on an item - it is so much fun , like a mini game adds to the whole experience...

 

I have to watch out for items like this Horn or something if you put it on a Cipher she can't gain focus.

 

I can not load in some locations so I don't get the extra stats. Again adds to the difficulty cool.

 

 

How dare I not experience nothing but happiness and relaxation. I am such an ungrateful scumbag who dares to be not content. You are right, it is clearly my flout.

[Nortalud]

 

I don't even disagree that some of these bugs are game-breaking, I'm just glad they're likely fixed tomorrow.

 

I don't disagree that some of the bugs are game-breaking either.

 

That doesn't mean the game is broken though.  This may sound like semantic nonsense, but to me a game being broken implies that it is, in essence, a paper weight.  It won't play and there is no way to make it play.  Or if it does play it can never be played to completion.  I'd even call the uninstall bug of PoR2001 broken since the consequence of that bug was so very heavy.

 

But a bug can be game breaking and not break the game.  When I had my quest item eaten about 20 hours into Arcanum and I had no way to progress the essential quest, that broke my game.  Other people had completed the game.  I restarted and following tips on how not to encounter the bug got past that part (I don't recall it being fixed at that point).  It was a game breaking bug; the game itself was not broken (even if the systems were broken).

 

 

Your definition of "game breaking" seems to me to be extraordinarily and unreasonably narrow. It sounds to me like you're saying that as long as a game is not so thoroughly awful that it in some way damages your computer and/or will not run under any circumstances whatsoever, that it is not "broken" and that it is reasonable for developers to expect players to independently research workarounds for said bugs rather than for players to expect developers to prevent such bugs from existing in the first place.

 

I'd define "game breaking" as something which significantly impairs the core functionality of said game and/or which significantly diminishes the ability of the player to derive enjoyment from it.

[Nortalud]

 

 

 

You want a bug free game? Don't play it from day one.

 

The above is the PC gaming equivalent of victim-blaming.

 

"You want a bug free game? Don't play it from day one release it without adequate QA & bug fixing." is how that should read.

 

Consoles aren't better

 

But yeah ... 30+ hours and one single crash and thats it.

Nothing broke my game ...

 

And as always ... as harsh as it might sound ... biggest bug often is the one with the mouse & keyboard infront of the screen.

 

 

I wasn't making a comparison with consoles, just clarifying that I was limiting my comment to PC/computer games.

 

And are you really saying that people who double-clicked to equip armor, or tried to have their party go up/down certain staircases in Raedric's Keep, or equipped the Horn of Whatchamacallit on a cipher were actually the ones at fault rather than Obsidian?

[Nortalud]

It's not significantly flawed.

 

I would be interested to hear some examples of what you might consider "significant" flaws.

 

 

You're just being pathetically dramatic.

 

 

Classy

[Amentep]

Are you saying that the major bugs which are apparently being fixed in a patch today could not have been identified and corrected by Obsidian pre-release, regardless of any additional time and resources they may have chosen to devote to testing and debugging?

Or are you saying that it's impossible to ever reach a point where PoE is entirely free from all bugs and errors of every magnitude and description? Or something else entirely?

I'm saying that Obsidian had 8 months of Beta and who knows how long of internal testing. If they'd not found the bugs by that point (for whatever reason - lack of computer build variety, introducing errors fixing errors that the Beta introduced) more time probably was not going to reveal the bugs that they were already not getting.

 

 

Your definition of "game breaking" seems to me to be extraordinarily and unreasonably narrow. It sounds to me like you're saying that as long as a game is not so thoroughly awful that it in some way damages your computer and/or will not run under any circumstances whatsoever, that it is not "broken" and that it is reasonable for developers to expect players to independently research workarounds for said bugs rather than for players to expect developers to prevent such bugs from existing in the first place.

 

I'd define "game breaking" as something which significantly impairs the core functionality of said game and/or which significantly diminishes the ability of the player to derive enjoyment from it.

 

Perhaps it is too narrow; can't say.  But to me at least, a game breaking bug is one in which the game can never be completed under any circumstances.

 

Your mileage may vary.  I beat Arcanum making sure I didn't re-hit the game ending bug.  I didn't consider the game broken, it could be completed.

[Nortalud]

BugsVendor, on 03 Apr 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

I don't how much time they would need but how is that my concern?

 

It is your concern because your posts seem to indicate you think that if they spent more time with the product that there would be less bugs.

My argument is that they didn't find the bugs in 8 months of Beta Testing. Of however long of internal Q&A. Another month, another two months was not going to get them to find problems they hadn't already found.

 

 

Upon what do you base that assertion? What amount of time do you think would have been required in order for these bugs to have been identified and addressed pre-release?

[kylania]

How dare I not experience nothing but happiness and relaxation. I am such an ungrateful scumbag who dares to be not content. You are right, it is clearly my flout.

 

 

To be fair, your name is BugsVendor, so it's probably expected that you'd have more bugs than others.  How else will you keep your stock levels high?

[Nortalud]

 

How dare I not experience nothing but happiness and relaxation. I am such an ungrateful scumbag who dares to be not content. You are right, it is clearly my flout.

 

 

To be fair, your name is BugsVendor, so it's probably expected that you'd have more bugs than others.  How else will you keep your stock levels high?

 

 

An excellent point which I had not pondered. I must reconsider all of my life choices. 

[Naurgalen]

So yeah, I heard Nintendo getting mention of being bug/glich free, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TbOpNBuRbA

 

Even after 30 years they are finding new bugs:

 

Heck, even AVGN did a whole piece of bugs (NSFW):

 

And you know that most speed runs of Nintendo games are based around glitches (even modern ones, check out the majora's mask speed runs).  The only big difference between then and now is the internet as people can quickly commentate about bugs, if you play a game that is buggy and you dont *know* what is bugged you will think it then you could think its less buggy than a game which a fewer bugs but your friends noted them out to you so it seems to be more buggy... 

 

 

Finally someone who knows a little of gaming. And we are talking console development (that has a very specific hardware and software) vs PC development (with and incredible amount of hardware, software and OS).

 

Now, given the amount of "game breaking" bugs (quotes are for the fact that even if its probable depending on how you play yo may never encounter them)  should Obsidian hire more testers/QA for the expansion or next game? Totally. And I think they will. People need to remember that the kickstarter money was being finished and the game cant be in development indefinitely because Obsidian -like the documentary stated- was not in a very good position. The release date was probably a necessity more than the ideal one.

 

Finally: Should the OP never buy an Obsidian title because of it?

 

OFC! It seem like a totally not overreacted position to troll fans at all.

[Nortalud]

 

Finally: Should the OP never buy an Obsidian title because of it?

 

OFC! It seem like a totally not overreacted position to troll fans at all.

 

 

My post was by no means intended as a troll (though I admit the title I used is kinda' troll-y). I am unhappy about the state this game was in when I bought it and am communicating my concerns in a manner which I think is likely to ensure Obsidian's awareness of them.

 

Things have evolved from there into a (mostly civil) debate as to the nature, implications, and, if you'll forgive my grandiosity, broader meaning of the bugs which caused my unhappiness.

[Naurgalen]

 

 

Finally: Should the OP never buy an Obsidian title because of it?

 

OFC! It seem like a totally not overreacted position to troll fans at all.

 

 

My post was by no means intended as a troll (though I admit the title I used is kinda' troll-y). I am unhappy about the state this game was in when I bought it and am communicating my concerns in a manner which I think is likely to ensure Obsidian's awareness of them.

 

Things have evolved from there into a (mostly civil) debate as to the nature, implications, and, if you'll forgive my grandiosity, broader meaning of the bugs which caused my unhappiness.

 

 

 

As I have said, (for me) your primary concern is totally valid and will be (almost certainly) adressed with the expasions / next games. And heck, I would totally supported a post made by you asking -in a good way- the devs to increase time into finding bugs for the expansion / next game.

 

But the title  + the "unacceptable" thing (as if Obsidian weren't an indie company making an almost AAA game -and some would say a new "classic"- with dwindling resources and risking its future) +  the "wont be paying full price" (thats you business, do you really think people will do the same because of you?) just makes a valid concern a rant that looks really trolly.

[Michel07]

I usually try to avoid making gripe posts, but my level of frustration and irritation with PoE is growing at such a rate that I kind of just have to let it out this time.

 

Despite being highly interested in a spiritual successor to the IE games of my halcyon youth, I didn't back the Kickstarter for PoE because I wasn't interested in playing a WIP/beta game. Instead, I bought the game a couple days after its official launch, but nevertheless, it feels like I'm playing a late beta version.

 

When literally not a single day can go by without me reading about or encountering a new major bug, I think it's fair to say that the game has launched in an unacceptable state. Disappearing passive bonuses from double-clicking to equip armor, endlessly stacking attributes from loading a saved game, disappearing focus regeneration from equipping an item designed specifically for the only class in the game which uses focus...

 

These are not bizarre, obscure bugs which only a small portion of the player base is likely to encounter, these are things which virtually every player is likely to encounter in the normal course of completing the game.

 

I'm still enjoying much of what PoE has to offer, but you can rest assured that I won't be making the mistake of paying full price for an Obsidian-developed game any time in the near future.

I must fully agree to what the companion adventurer spoke about,,,

[Guest BugsVendor]

I keep reading all the stuff that got broken after the patch release and I'm feeling like the original kick starter backer.

 

I put money up for a project and I have no guarantee it will ever work.

 

Anyone still have any doubt that the release decision was hasty?

 

I reckon there will be months of heavy patching before the game become a product it should have been before the official release. 

Edited April 3, 2015 by BugsVendor

[Molcho]

People are being way too emotional about this. I don't think anyone of the the people discussing this topic hates the game. We're investing time and effort in order to get it to work poperly and I, for one, am enjoying the game in its current state despite the bugs. 

 

Even when my progress was wiped due to the Raedric's Keep bug, I started a new game because the gameplay is fun and the world is interesting. it's like a dream come true, really.

 

However...

 

no matter how strong my emotional attachment to this particular game is, I cannot deny that Obsidian botched the QA. It won't ruin the game for me, because I can make it work. I put more than 100 hours into PoE already, so you can see how much of a basement dweller I am. But the world does not revolve around me and circumstances might change. Other people cannot invest this ridiculous amount of time and simply go "Whatever, I just start all over again". So when they buy a supposedly finished release that is riddled with bugs, some of which will hinder their progress - I'm not talking about minor inconveniences, but things that make it impossible to progress and render hours of playtime virtually useless - then that is wrong and should not be excused or condoned by anyone.

 

Yes, the game is great. Many people knew that it would be and backed it back in the day. Even more people pre ordered it or bought it on release - we have shown our appreciation as fans and customers! 

 

It is great that such a game can be created by a communal effort, but that doesn't mean Obsidian should get a free ticket for their incompetence in certain areas. I think everyone here is looking forward to future content from this IP and wouldn't it suck when you were suddenly one of the (supposedly) few people who cant finish the game then? This is why we complain, so that the next time Obsidian gets it right. You apologists are actively working against that, while bringing nothing to the table at the same time. The developers don't need you to hold their hands - they know the facts. They know the numbers and can decide how to mitigate the problem. 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Molcho

[McMayhem]

Okay, so there a massive amount of stupid on this thread, from both sides. I was going to try and quote, but there really was just too much so I'll try to just go point by point the best I can.

 

Firstly, the "I haven't experienced any bugs" posts are wantonly absurd. Only in video games will you find a response like that. It roughly translates to "
I have no issues, therefore you shouldn't either." Really? Come on.

 

Moving on, comparing this game to other games in an attempt to justify what seems to be an onslaught of game breaking bugs (crashes are game breaking bugs, they literally break the game) is faulty logic on an elementary level. Just because X, Y or Z game had bugs at launch does not justify someone else doing it. 

 

That isn't to say this game is an any way less than fantastic, from a world building standpoint, the game is wonderful. The story is gripping and pulls you in right away, the combat is fun and intuitive, and it successfully grabs hold of the very mechanics that made the crpgs of old so wonderful.

 

On a fundamental level, this game hit the mark. By fundamental, I mean the content of this game that won't be altered in the coming weeks. You can't really fix a bad story with a patch, you can try, but that rarely happens. I'm thankful that the issues with this game are technological and temporary. I am also confident that the developers genuinely want this game to succeed beyond a sales figure. They want us to have fun with their product, and that motive will lead them to fix the issues we are having right now.

 

That does not, however, lessen the (justifiable) frustration that people are having with the game. The OP is making a perfectly valid complaint, and to shame him/her for voicing that complaint just because you somehow feel insulted that your favorite developer is getting even the slightest hint of negative criticism is really nothing more than petulant blubbering.

 

To sum up. OP: Hang in there, things will get better.

[dirkdivac]

Really boils down to one question:

 

Would you rather be able to play the game now in it's current state or wait another ?60? days or so for quality Q&A to ensure a mostly bug free experience?

 

If you are the former, then you are happy.

If you are the latter, then you are pissed.

 

The bug issue is quite complicated because we don't know what financial state Obsidian was in when they released the game.  Is it unimaginable to think Obsidian was out of money and could not properly bug test the game, instead, decided to release it to get the revenue stream flowing in the right direction so they could properly fix whatever bugs popped up?

 

Not making excuses, just saying making broad generalizations about Obsidian's competence or lack thereof can't accurately be done by anyone outside the company because none of us know why they decided to release when they did without proper Q&A.

[Horrorscope]

Favorite bug of all time.... An EA Baseball game on the Playstation 1. It was one where you could hook up like 8 players at once. Set up who's on what team, who controls which positions. We were jacked to play a whole season. First game, second game, third game, shelved. It would lose track of what player was on what team controlling which players. So you would start with 3 on 3 by the third inning it was 4 on 2, for some reason the game moved a player to the other team. Then assigned positions would be lost, so you wouldn't know where you were really covering. Then the coup de grace... It got so confused to the point the same player was both pitcher and hitter at the same f'in time! Never to be fixed and was a large selling point for that years version. Game was so confused, reminds me of Chevy's flash-sideways from the Funny Farm and yes I cried like the wife.

So less than a week a major patch to address most reported issue... that's pretty good. It will be months for expert balancing, oh well. Support we do.