Let's talk race balance...

[Longknife]

God Tier

Hearth Orlan

Moon Godlike

 

Pro Tier

 

Coastal Aumaua

Wood Elves

Fire Godlike

Wild Orlans

 

Meh Tier

 

Humans

Mountain Dwarves

Death Godlike

Boreal Dwarves

 

 

 

 

Garbage Tier

 

Pale Elves

Nature Godlike

Island Aumaua

 

 

 

 

 

Does that seem about right?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Longknife

[Sleazebag]

Island aumaua isn't really garbage at all for some cheesy gun builds, but that's about it. Fire godlike is actually good for monks. Boreal dwarf isn't THAT bad, since those enemy types are surprisingly common in the mid-end game. But it's pretty garbage right now since the racial is apparently bugged and not working.

 

Other than that, looks about right. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

This thread is racist. All races are equal and it's problematic to say otherwise.

[Aqvamare]

With stat bug throug saving and loading:

 

out of league:

 

Fire Godlike, thanks to the bug his DR stacks permamently, so you can become immun to damage.

 

---------------------

 

without bug:

 

God like:

 

fire godlike, +3 SR means, you can carry 3 tiers lower armor than other races for same damage reduction, which means +15% combat action speed, important for every range DPS or caster.

The fire damage bonus on hit is nice adding, as barbar, it stacks with his passive 50% damage boost talents up to 50 fire damage on hit, which triggers bloodlost.

As paladin, it is better than his orden fire shild.

as warrior...one of the few ways to get extra damage as tank.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Aqvamare

[ErlKing]

A tier

Wood Elves  (+5 Acc for gunners and casters)

Hearth Orlan  (Crits crits crits)

Fire Godlike (+4 DR pretty good for tanks)

 

B tier

Pale Elves (not bad for tanks/off-tanks)

Moon Godlike (heal kinda meh, but its there and they look cool)

Death Godlike (mostly for paladin finishers)

Island Aumaua (Quick Switch scums)

 

C tier

Everyone else

Edited April 2, 2015 by ErlKing

[Ceranai]

God Tier

 

Hearth Orlan

Moon Godlike

 

Pro Tier

 

Coastal Aumaua

Wood Elves

Wild Orlans

 

Meh Tier

 

Humans

Mountain Dwarves

Death Godlike

Boreal Dwarves

Fire Godlike

 

 

 

Garbage Tier

 

Pale Elves

Nature Godlike

Island Aumaua

 

 

 

 

 

Does that seem about right?

I would definitely put fire god up one, its almost as good as moon depending on the situation (eg a fire paladin will basically take because of the stacking DR) similarly death god like is good for burst dps to finish off the enemy even faster, other than that i agree, tbh aside from the god and pro tiers i dont pay much attention to racials and jsut chose to fit my rp experience

[Longknife]

A tier

Wood Elves  (+5 Acc for gunners and casters)

Hearth Orlan  (Crits crits crits)

Fire Godlike (+3 DR pretty good for tanks)

 

B tier

Pale Elves (not bad for tanks/off-tanks)

Moon Godlike (heal kinda meh, but its there and they look cool)

Death Godlike (mostly for paladin finishers)

Island Aumaua (Quick Switch scums)

 

C tier

Everyone else

 

 

I think the human bonus is practically superior to death godlike as it gives both damage and accuracy when the human is below 50% endurance.

This is both a greater payoff and triggers in a more dire situation. IE if you have a tough battle, the human can potentially turn it around with more damage and accuracy (equaling more crits) whereas the Death Godlike will not get the enemy low enough to even benefit from their racial, and will only benefit from it in the already easily surmountable battles, and even so gains no accuracy.

 

And yeah Fire Godlike is bugged. Not counting that since wtf if I did, that'd just be unfair.

[Emeus]

If you want to solo the game, fire godlike would be S tier.

[MadDemiurg]

Hearth Orlan isn't that great. Tbh wood elf is better in a lot of cases (I think + 5 acc translates into 5% misses to grazes, grazes to hits and hits to crits regardless of what you attack). Fire godlike is pretty uber at high levels with his retaliation damage scaling. Top races are probably fire, moon, wood elf and hearth orlan with orlan being the weaker one of the pack.

Edited April 2, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Longknife]

Hearth Orlan isn't that great. Tbh wood elf is better in a lot of cases (I think + 5 acc translates into 5% misses to grazes, grazes to hits and hits to crits regardless of what you attack). Fire godlike is pretty uber at high levels with his retaliation damage scaling. Top races are probably fire, moon, wood elf and hearth orlan with orlan being the weaker one of the pack.

 

 

Hearth Orlan is 10% on crits. The only talent I lack raw numbers for is the human one. The only time Hearth Orlan is not useful is for solo play, which is just one scenario of thousands.Likewise, if we're talking about characters that already have respectable accuracy then Hearth Orlan is just the superior choice. 

 

The Wood elves have the issue of losing that bonus the moment someone gets too close, meaning it's not a good race for anything you expect to fight up close, nor would it even be a good replacement for Hearth Orlan in solo play seeing as you will quickly lose your distance advantage if you're the only target being chased.

 

I did move Fire Godlike up though since enough people are claiming they pro.

[ErlKing]

Wood elf racial is only vs far enemies, if you go barbarian, monk or melee rogue then hearth orlan is more preferable (but yeah, +Acc is definetly better).

[lord_wc]

Hearth Orlan is 10% on crits. 

No.

 

It's 10% HITS are upgraded to crits. Huge difference.

 

Let's take two ends of the spectrum and compare the +5 accuracy of elves with the +10% hits upgraded:

 

1st scenario is low accuracy - you have 25 less accuracy than your enemy and try to hit it.

Midget DPS: 0,4 * 0 (miss) + 0,35 * 0,5 (graze) + 0,23 * 1 (hit) + 0,02 * 1,5 (crit) = 0,435

Elf DPS: 0,35 * 0 + 0,35 * 0,5 + 0,3 * 1 = 0,475

 

2nd scenario is high accuracy - you have 25 more accuracy than your enemy and try to hit it.

Midget DPS: 0,25 * 0,5 + 0,45 * 1 + 0,3 * 1,5 = 1,025

Elf DPS: 0,2 * 0,5 + 0,5 * 1 + 0,3 * 1,5 = 1,05

 

If you want to build something that will be at least 4m away from the enemy elves are simply superior DPS. No question, midget is for melee only, for ranged/caster elves are the way to go. And if you look at how punishing melee can be (especially on higher difficulties) and how you won't have any defenses if you pull aggro, I would say in the grand scheme of things elves are simply much better than orlans. Sure, the latter can look like teemo, but that won't make up for the lower damage.

Edited April 2, 2015 by lord_wc

[Urthor]

 

Hearth Orlan is 10% on crits.

No.

 

It's 10% HITS are upgraded to crits. Huge difference.

 

Let's take two ends of the spectrum and compare the +5 accuracy of elves with the +10% hits upgraded:

 

1st scenario is low accuracy - you have 25 less accuracy than your enemy and try to hit it.

Midget DPS: 0,4 * 0 (miss) + 0,35 * 0,5 (graze) + 0,23 * 1 (hit) + 0,02 * 1,5 (crit) = 0,435

Elf DPS: 0,35 * 0 + 0,35 * 0,5 + 0,3 * 1 = 0,475

 

2nd scenario is high accuracy - you have 25 more accuracy than your enemy and try to hit it.

Midget DPS: 0,25 * 0,5 + 0,45 * 1 + 0,3 * 1,5 = 1,025

Elf DPS: 0,2 * 0,5 + 0,5 * 1 + 0,3 * 1,5 = 1,05

 

If you want to build something that will be at least 4m away from the enemy elves are simply superior DPS. No question, midget is for melee only, for ranged/caster elves are the way to go.

 

I mean you should probably graph this instead of using the values like that, but yea.

 

Accuracy also reduces the amount of variance in your damage output, always a useful trait

[Odd Hermit]

God Tier
 

Wood Elves (http://i.imgur.com/LHahjtx.jpg)

Wild Orlan(Tanks)

Moon Godlike (Only Godlike that has a racial worth a helm, they are butt ugly looking though)

 

Pro Tier

 

Hearth Orlan

Island Aumaua (+1 weapon sets is good)

Coastal Aumaua

 

Meh Tier

 

Pale Elves (Burn/Freeze DR is decent so they're at top of meh tier)

Death Godlike

Fire Godlike

 

Garbage Tier

 

Humans

Mountain Dwarves (Aumaua is better for damage due to no dex penalty, Poison/Disease resist not a big deal since they're not a tank race)

Boreal Dwarves (much too situational)

Nature Godlike (easily the worst in the game)

[Dead Optimist]

God Tier

 

Wood Elves (http://i.imgur.com/LHahjtx.jpg)

Wild Orlan(Tanks)

Moon Godlike (Only Godlike that has a racial worth a helm, they are butt ugly looking though)

 

Pro Tier

 

Hearth Orlan

Island Aumaua (+1 weapon sets is good)

Coastal Aumaua

 

Meh Tier

 

Pale Elves (Burn/Freeze DR is decent so they're at top of meh tier)

Death Godlike

Fire Godlike

 

Garbage Tier

 

Humans

Mountain Dwarves (Aumaua is better for damage due to no dex penalty, Poison/Disease resist not a big deal since they're not a tank race)

Boreal Dwarves (much too situational)

Nature Godlike (easily the worst in the game)

I am reading through this to try and get an idea about the best way to do things (I like trying to min/max over RP), and I was interested by your ranking of the Fire Godlike, as it is so different to what others have put. What is your reasoning for this?

 

EDIT: also, how does the Orlan crit chance influence AoE spells, and CC spells? Would it increase the duration of CC spells?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Dead Optimist

[lord_wc]

I mean you should probably graph this instead of using the values like that, but yea.

Accuracy also reduces the amount of variance in your damage output, always a useful trait

No, the post just required typing that way. Why would I spend 10 mins for making a graph if I can just type a post and it perfectly proves my point?

 

The latter is not exactly true. Elf accuracy just pulls your rolls up by 5% point. Orlan passive pulls your hits up by <=5% point. Depending on your accuracy and if misses/grazes are present both can have higher deviation from the median.

Edited April 2, 2015 by lord_wc

[Ceranai]

 

God Tier

 

Wood Elves (http://i.imgur.com/LHahjtx.jpg)

Wild Orlan(Tanks)

Moon Godlike (Only Godlike that has a racial worth a helm, they are butt ugly looking though)

 

Pro Tier

 

Hearth Orlan

Island Aumaua (+1 weapon sets is good)

Coastal Aumaua

 

Meh Tier

 

Pale Elves (Burn/Freeze DR is decent so they're at top of meh tier)

Death Godlike

Fire Godlike

 

Garbage Tier

 

Humans

Mountain Dwarves (Aumaua is better for damage due to no dex penalty, Poison/Disease resist not a big deal since they're not a tank race)

Boreal Dwarves (much too situational)

Nature Godlike (easily the worst in the game)

I am reading through this to try and get an idea about the best way to do things (I like trying to min/max over RP), and I was interested by your ranking of the Fire Godlike, as it is so different to what others have put. What is your reasoning for this?

 

EDIT: also, how does the Orlan crit chance influence AoE spells, and CC spells? Would it increase the duration of CC spells?

 

Some people dont like any abilities that rely on you being half dead to activate, im just gonna say though that a paladin with upgraded faith and conviction, a big ass shield and fire godlike (with the heaviest armour you can find) can basically walk through a room full of mobs and barely flinch, not only does he barely take any damage but if by some miracle he does get down to 50% the mobs attacking him will probably kill themselves before they get him to 0, especially if you tactically heal him so that he is constantly in the 10-50 range

[gkathellar]

Okay. They're not balanced.

 

I'm really hoping something Weidu-esque comes into existence, so I can mod the hell out of this game.

 

@OddHermit - Mountain Dwarves do have a niche for tank builds if you dump Dexterity entirely, since you can get an extra attribute point out of it. Technically this applies to Boreal Dwarves as well, but their racial ability sucks, so ... yeah.

 

@Dead Optimist - People value Fire Godlike so highly mostly because it's bugged to trigger at higher than 50% endurance and has some serious stacking bugs. As per tooltip, it's kinda meh at best.

[MadDemiurg]

Fire godlike retaliation damage scales, it's 2*level. So at level 12, it's 24 damage before might and other damage bonuses. I've heard they're bugged and can stack more DR than intended, but I haven't encountered it yet. Even without the bugs they ability is very good at higher levels (and yes, kinda meh at start).

[lord_wc]

As per tooltip, it's kinda meh at best.

I disagree. 4 DR that stacks with your existing DR is a lot, it's basically a free item slot. If I have access to healing in my party I would take fire godlike all the time - especially on higher difficulties. You also get a retaliation aura for free wich might not be a lot of damage, it does add up over the time.

 

Sure, it's not a dps race, but it's a no1 tanking race.

Edited April 2, 2015 by lord_wc

[Longknife]

 

Hearth Orlan is 10% on crits. 

No.

 

It's 10% HITS are upgraded to crits. Huge difference.

 

Let's take two ends of the spectrum and compare the +5 accuracy of elves with the +10% hits upgraded:

 

1st scenario is low accuracy - you have 25 less accuracy than your enemy and try to hit it.

Midget DPS: 0,4 * 0 (miss) + 0,35 * 0,5 (graze) + 0,23 * 1 (hit) + 0,02 * 1,5 (crit) = 0,435

Elf DPS: 0,35 * 0 + 0,35 * 0,5 + 0,3 * 1 = 0,475

 

2nd scenario is high accuracy - you have 25 more accuracy than your enemy and try to hit it.

Midget DPS: 0,25 * 0,5 + 0,45 * 1 + 0,3 * 1,5 = 1,025

Elf DPS: 0,2 * 0,5 + 0,5 * 1 + 0,3 * 1,5 = 1,05

 

If you want to build something that will be at least 4m away from the enemy elves are simply superior DPS. No question, midget is for melee only, for ranged/caster elves are the way to go. And if you look at how punishing melee can be (especially on higher difficulties) and how you won't have any defenses if you pull aggro, I would say in the grand scheme of things elves are simply much better than orlans. Sure, the latter can look like teemo, but that won't make up for the lower damage.

 

 

Not quite understanding the number equations here, care to clarify?

 

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

[billythegreat]

Boreal dwarf ability is not meh. Check here http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Creature to see agaiinst how many creatures boreal dwarfs have 15 % more accuracy.

[Odd Hermit]

I am reading through this to try and get an idea about the best way to do things (I like trying to min/max over RP), and I was interested by your ranking of the Fire Godlike, as it is so different to what others have put. What is your reasoning for this?

 

EDIT: also, how does the Orlan crit chance influence AoE spells, and CC spells? Would it increase the duration of CC spells?

 

 

It's ~decent for tank, but DR and small amounts of retaliation damage get less valuable as difficulty increases, and it's inferior to tank races that get better all-the-time mitigation. Wild Orlan is by far the best since you can have +3 to deflection stats, on top of a substantial temporary bonus to defenses any time an attack targets your Will which as tank can be quite often.

 

I am basing this opinion on the beta form of Fire Godlike that wasn't bugged and trigger @ 50% endurance properly, I haven't used them post release.

I'm not sure whether or not Orlan has to be directly targeting an enemy to get benefit. I haven't used Hearth Orlans much TBH.

[gkathellar]

 

I am reading through this to try and get an idea about the best way to do things (I like trying to min/max over RP), and I was interested by your ranking of the Fire Godlike, as it is so different to what others have put. What is your reasoning for this?

 

EDIT: also, how does the Orlan crit chance influence AoE spells, and CC spells? Would it increase the duration of CC spells?

 

 

It's ~decent for tank, but DR and small amounts of retaliation damage get less valuable as difficulty increases, and it's inferior to tank races that get better all-the-time mitigation. Wild Orlan is by far the best since you can have +3 to deflection stats, on top of a substantial temporary bonus to defenses any time an attack targets your Will which as tank can be quite often.

 

I am basing this opinion on the beta form of Fire Godlike that wasn't bugged and trigger @ 50% endurance properly, I haven't used them post release.

I'm not sure whether or not Orlan has to be directly targeting an enemy to get benefit. I haven't used Hearth Orlans much TBH.

 

 

That said, if their retaliation damage were on 100% of the time, they'd be noticeably more useful.

[lord_wc]

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

Attack rolls are  Accuracy-Enemy defense + d100. If the end result is less than 16 it's a miss. If less then 51, it's a graze for 50% damage. If less than 101 it's a hit for full damage. If it's more or equals 101 it's a crit for 150% damage. I just modified this with the racial passives and weighted them with the damage. Basically if you multiply your average damage with the end result you get your average damage per swing.

 

You could also say that in a neutral environment (Accuracy=enemy defense) the possibility of scoring a hit is 50%. The midget passive upgrades 10% of this to a crit - which is 5% point. The elven racial gives 5% point bonus to ALL your swings - so it upgrades misses and grazes as well. Therefore the elf is better - worst case equal the midget.

Edited April 2, 2015 by lord_wc