Let's talk race balance...

[gkathellar]

 

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

Attack rolls are  Accuracy-Enemy defense + d100. If the end result is less than 16 it's a miss. If less then 51, it's a graze for 50% damage. If less than 101 it's a hit for full damage. If it's more or equals 101 it's a crit for 150% damage. I just modified this with the racial passives and weighted them with the damage. Basically if you multiply your average damage with the end result you get your average damage per swing.

 

 

It also bears noting that there are ways to push up the critical damage multiplier.

[lord_wc]

 

 

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

Attack rolls are  Accuracy-Enemy defense + d100. If the end result is less than 16 it's a miss. If less then 51, it's a graze for 50% damage. If less than 101 it's a hit for full damage. If it's more or equals 101 it's a crit for 150% damage. I just modified this with the racial passives and weighted them with the damage. Basically if you multiply your average damage with the end result you get your average damage per swing.

 

 

It also bears noting that there are ways to push up the critical damage multiplier.

 

Which is a possibility for both races. The only time where it would matter for midget only is when the accuracy is so low that crits are impossible - even with the 5% bonus for the elf.

Which is extremely unlikely since we are talking about DPS characters - accuracy is something you want to push as high as possible.

If somehow your accuracy was still too low, for example in the first scenario the crit multiplier should be 300% instead of 150%. Which is not possible.

[Longknife]

 

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

Attack rolls are  Accuracy-Enemy defense + d100. If the end result is less than 16 it's a miss. If less then 51, it's a graze for 50% damage. If less than 101 it's a hit for full damage. If it's more or equals 101 it's a crit for 150% damage. I just modified this with the racial passives and weighted them with the damage. Basically if you multiply your average damage with the end result you get your average damage per swing.

 

You could also say that in a neutral environment (Accuracy=enemy defense) the possibility of scoring a hit is 50%. The midget passive upgrades 10% of this to a crit - which is 5% point. The elven racial gives 5% point bonus to ALL your swings - so it upgrades misses and grazes as well. Therefore the elf is better - worst case equal the midget.

 

 

 

So if I'm understanding correct, you could basically word it as Hearth Orlans only needing to roll a 91, for a crit, whereas Elves need a 96, but only need a 21 for a graze and a 46 for a hit?

[Dead Optimist]

 

 

 

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

Attack rolls are  Accuracy-Enemy defense + d100. If the end result is less than 16 it's a miss. If less then 51, it's a graze for 50% damage. If less than 101 it's a hit for full damage. If it's more or equals 101 it's a crit for 150% damage. I just modified this with the racial passives and weighted them with the damage. Basically if you multiply your average damage with the end result you get your average damage per swing.

 

 

It also bears noting that there are ways to push up the critical damage multiplier.

 

Which is a possibility for both races. The only time where it would matter for midget only is when the accuracy is so low that crits are impossible - even with the 5% bonus for the elf.

Which is extremely unlikely since we are talking about DPS characters - accuracy is something you want to push as high as possible.

If somehow your accuracy was still too low, for example in the first scenario the crit multiplier should be 300% instead of 150%. Which is not possible.

 

There are a few abilities that increase crit damage IIRC (just saw that new thread on Bloody Slaughter): Would these be more beneficial for the Orlans due to higher crit chance? (I'm not really fully clear on how the hit-to-crit thing works in connection to higher accuracy).

[Elerond]

 

 

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

Attack rolls are  Accuracy-Enemy defense + d100. If the end result is less than 16 it's a miss. If less then 51, it's a graze for 50% damage. If less than 101 it's a hit for full damage. If it's more or equals 101 it's a crit for 150% damage. I just modified this with the racial passives and weighted them with the damage. Basically if you multiply your average damage with the end result you get your average damage per swing.

 

You could also say that in a neutral environment (Accuracy=enemy defense) the possibility of scoring a hit is 50%. The midget passive upgrades 10% of this to a crit - which is 5% point. The elven racial gives 5% point bonus to ALL your swings - so it upgrades misses and grazes as well. Therefore the elf is better - worst case equal the midget.

 

 

 

So if I'm understanding correct, you could basically word it as Hearth Orlans only needing to roll a 91, for a crit, whereas Elves need a 96, but only need a 21 for a graze and a 46 for a hit?

 

 

No. Orlans bonuses convert 10% of hits to crits. which means that

 

Hit roll is attackers accuracy - targets defense + d100

rolls 1-15 = miss

rolls 16-50 = graze

rolls 51=100 = hit

rolls 101+ = crit

 

Acc-Def = 0 scenario: meaning roll d100 + 0

Normal divination for misses-grazes-hits-crits is 15% misses, 35% grazes, and 50% hits

heart orlans will instead do 15% misses, 35% grazes 45% hits and 5% crits. (as 10% of  50% is 5%)

wood elves will do 10% misses, 35% grazes, 45% hits and 5% crits. (Acc +5 means 5% bonus in all categories)

 

Acc-Def = -5 scenario: meaning roll d100 - 5

Normal divination for misses-grazes-hits-crits is 20% misses, 35% grazes, and 45% hits

heart orlans will instead do 20% misses, 35% grazes 40.5% hits and 4.5% crits. (as 10% of  45% is 4.5%)

wood elves will do 15% misses, 35% grazes, 50% hits (Acc +5 means 5% bonus in all categories)

 

Acc-Def = +5 scenario: meaning roll d100 + 5

Normal divination for misses-grazes-hits-crits is 10% misses, 35% grazes, 45% hits, and  5% crits

heart orlans will instead do 10% misses, 35% grazes 40.5% hits and 9.5% crits. (as 10% of  45% is 4.5%)

wood elves will do 5% misses, 35% grazes, 40% hits and 10% crits. (Acc +5 means 5% bonus in all categories)

[Hatred]

 

 

Hearth Orlan is 10% on crits. 

No.

 

It's 10% HITS are upgraded to crits. Huge difference.

 

Let's take two ends of the spectrum and compare the +5 accuracy of elves with the +10% hits upgraded:

 

1st scenario is low accuracy - you have 25 less accuracy than your enemy and try to hit it.

Midget DPS: 0,4 * 0 (miss) + 0,35 * 0,5 (graze) + 0,23 * 1 (hit) + 0,02 * 1,5 (crit) = 0,435

Elf DPS: 0,35 * 0 + 0,35 * 0,5 + 0,3 * 1 = 0,475

 

2nd scenario is high accuracy - you have 25 more accuracy than your enemy and try to hit it.

Midget DPS: 0,25 * 0,5 + 0,45 * 1 + 0,3 * 1,5 = 1,025

Elf DPS: 0,2 * 0,5 + 0,5 * 1 + 0,3 * 1,5 = 1,05

 

If you want to build something that will be at least 4m away from the enemy elves are simply superior DPS. No question, midget is for melee only, for ranged/caster elves are the way to go. And if you look at how punishing melee can be (especially on higher difficulties) and how you won't have any defenses if you pull aggro, I would say in the grand scheme of things elves are simply much better than orlans. Sure, the latter can look like teemo, but that won't make up for the lower damage.

 

 

Not quite understanding the number equations here, care to clarify?

 

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

 

 

He did tell you were the numbers came from. He literally explains scenario then puts numbers. One easy way to put it is this. 50% of the amounts of hits you do will only ever be 5% crit chance at best (because 10% of 50 is 5). Five accuracy will make you miss 5% less, graze 5% less and crit 5% more. Clearly the winner. It also doesnt require anyone else targeting the same mob (so it would work for an opening blunderbuss shot from a rogue or w/e).

 The woodelf and hearth orlan would even out if you had 50 accuracy more than the enemy had deflection. If you are in this scenario I really really dont think it matters though. Also if you had an advantage of over 50 then orlan would drop off again.

[Longknife]

 

 

 

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

Attack rolls are  Accuracy-Enemy defense + d100. If the end result is less than 16 it's a miss. If less then 51, it's a graze for 50% damage. If less than 101 it's a hit for full damage. If it's more or equals 101 it's a crit for 150% damage. I just modified this with the racial passives and weighted them with the damage. Basically if you multiply your average damage with the end result you get your average damage per swing.

 

You could also say that in a neutral environment (Accuracy=enemy defense) the possibility of scoring a hit is 50%. The midget passive upgrades 10% of this to a crit - which is 5% point. The elven racial gives 5% point bonus to ALL your swings - so it upgrades misses and grazes as well. Therefore the elf is better - worst case equal the midget.

 

 

 

So if I'm understanding correct, you could basically word it as Hearth Orlans only needing to roll a 91, for a crit, whereas Elves need a 96, but only need a 21 for a graze and a 46 for a hit?

 

 

No. Orlans bonuses convert 10% of hits to crits. which means that

 

Hit roll is attackers accuracy - targets defense + d100

rolls 1-15 = miss

rolls 16-50 = graze

rolls 51=100 = hit

rolls 101+ = crit

 

Acc-Def = 0 scenario: meaning roll d100 + 0

Normal divination for misses-grazes-hits-crits is 15% misses, 35% grazes, and 50% hits

heart orlans will instead do 15% misses, 35% grazes 45% hits and 5% crits. (as 10% of  50% is 5%)

wood elves will do 10% misses, 35% grazes, 45% hits and 5% crits. (Acc +5 means 5% bonus in all categories)

 

Acc-Def = -5 scenario: meaning roll d100 - 5

Normal divination for misses-grazes-hits-crits is 20% misses, 35% grazes, and 45% hits

heart orlans will instead do 20% misses, 35% grazes 40.5% hits and 4.5% crits. (as 10% of  45% is 4.5%)

wood elves will do 15% misses, 35% grazes, 50% hits (Acc +5 means 5% bonus in all categories)

 

Acc-Def = +5 scenario: meaning roll d100 + 5

Normal divination for misses-grazes-hits-crits is 10% misses, 35% grazes, 45% hits, and  5% crits

heart orlans will instead do 10% misses, 35% grazes 40.5% hits and 9.5% crits. (as 10% of  45% is 4.5%)

wood elves will do 5% misses, 35% grazes, 40% hits and 10% crits. (Acc +5 means 5% bonus in all categories)

 

 

 

So a +5 Accuracy bonus is essentially sinking the hit requirement of a d100 roll by 5? Am I right in understanding +15 accuracy (above deflection) would mean hits are negated then?

 

And just curious, where and how are you guys confirming it's a 10% bonus in the sense it's 10% of the hit amount?

 

AKA, in a normal scenario, how do we know it's not 15% crit, 35% grazes, 40% hits and 10% crits for Hearth Orlans?

 

This is a typical scenario where even the descriptions do not make it clear if the bonus is additive or multiplicative (happens all the time in RPGs) so I'm curious if this is speculation or if someone peered into the code and confirmed it's the way you've outlined. Reason I ask is because now it seems to work in the opposite direction where Hearth Orlan seems universally inferior, whereas extra hit chance (and a smaller benefit to crit) in a situational scenario vs. less hit chance but more crit chance on hits (again situational, but extremely ridiculously common) seems more balanced and thus more likely to be implemented.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Longknife

[mgoetze]

It's 10% HITS are upgraded to crits. Huge difference.

 

Let's take two ends of the spectrum and compare the +5 accuracy of elves with the +10% hits upgraded:

 

1st scenario is low accuracy - you have 25 less accuracy than your enemy and try to hit it.

Midget DPS: 0,4 * 0 (miss) + 0,35 * 0,5 (graze) + 0,23 * 1 (hit) + 0,02 * 1,5 (crit) = 0,435

Elf DPS: 0,35 * 0 + 0,35 * 0,5 + 0,3 * 1 = 0,475

Now let's say you have 5 less accuracy than your enemy's defence and your enemy has DR such that grazes only do 0.1x base damage, hits do 0.6x and crits do 1.1x.

 

Orlan DPS = 0.2 * 0 + 0.35 * 0.1 + 0.405 * 0.6 + 0.045 * 1.1 = .3275

Elf DPS = 0.15 * 0 + 0.35 * 0.1 + 0.5 * 0.6 = .335

 

Getting pretty close, pump up the DR any more and the Orlan will come out ahead.

 

(Nevertheless I agree that the Wood Elf is better for ranged characters generally speaking.)

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

Needs more labels and explanations where the numbers are coming from. At least for me, anyways.

Attack rolls are  Accuracy-Enemy defense + d100. If the end result is less than 16 it's a miss. If less then 51, it's a graze for 50% damage. If less than 101 it's a hit for full damage. If it's more or equals 101 it's a crit for 150% damage. I just modified this with the racial passives and weighted them with the damage. Basically if you multiply your average damage with the end result you get your average damage per swing.

 

You could also say that in a neutral environment (Accuracy=enemy defense) the possibility of scoring a hit is 50%. The midget passive upgrades 10% of this to a crit - which is 5% point. The elven racial gives 5% point bonus to ALL your swings - so it upgrades misses and grazes as well. Therefore the elf is better - worst case equal the midget.

 

 

 

So if I'm understanding correct, you could basically word it as Hearth Orlans only needing to roll a 91, for a crit, whereas Elves need a 96, but only need a 21 for a graze and a 46 for a hit?

 

 

No. Orlans bonuses convert 10% of hits to crits. which means that

 

Hit roll is attackers accuracy - targets defense + d100

rolls 1-15 = miss

rolls 16-50 = graze

rolls 51=100 = hit

rolls 101+ = crit

 

Acc-Def = 0 scenario: meaning roll d100 + 0

Normal divination for misses-grazes-hits-crits is 15% misses, 35% grazes, and 50% hits

heart orlans will instead do 15% misses, 35% grazes 45% hits and 5% crits. (as 10% of  50% is 5%)

wood elves will do 10% misses, 35% grazes, 50% hits and 5% crits. (Acc +5 means 5% bonus in all categories)

 

Acc-Def = -5 scenario: meaning roll d100 - 5

Normal divination for misses-grazes-hits-crits is 20% misses, 35% grazes, and 45% hits

heart orlans will instead do 20% misses, 35% grazes 40.5% hits and 4.5% crits. (as 10% of  45% is 4.5%)

wood elves will do 15% misses, 35% grazes, 50% hits (Acc +5 means 5% bonus in all categories)

 

Acc-Def = +5 scenario: meaning roll d100 + 5

Normal divination for misses-grazes-hits-crits is 10% misses, 35% grazes, 50% hits, and  5% crits

heart orlans will instead do 10% misses, 35% grazes 45% hits and 10% crits. (as 10% of  50% is 5%)

wood elves will do 5% misses, 35% grazes, 50% hits and 10% crits. (Acc +5 means 5% bonus in all categories)

 

 

 

So a +5 Accuracy bonus is essentially sinking the hit requirement of a d100 roll by 5? Am I right in understanding +15 accuracy (above deflection) would mean hits are negated then?

 

And just curious, where and how are you guys confirming it's a 10% bonus in the sense it's 10% of the hit amount?

 

AKA, in a normal scenario, how do we know it's not 15% crit, 35% grazes, 40% hits and 10% crits for Hearth Orlans?

 

This is a typical scenario where even the descriptions do not make it clear if the bonus is additive or multiplicative (happens all the time in RPGs) so I'm curious if this is speculation or if someone peered into the code and confirmed it's the way you've outlined. Reason I ask is because now it seems to work in the opposite direction where Hearth Orlan seems universally inferior, whereas extra hit chance (and a smaller benefit to crit) in a situational scenario vs. less hit chance but more crit chance on hits (again situational, but extremely ridiculously common) seems more balanced and thus more likely to be implemented.

 

 

I made mistake in writing those hit percentages for wood elf, as in reality 50% of their attack rolls result hit in every scenario. And I made same mistake in normal and heart orlans +5 scenario.  I fixed right percentages to this post as I can't edit original anymore.

 

You can test it if you want. But it is what we have told it should do. In my understanding how it works is that there is 10% change in heart orlans case that any attack roll which result is hit is converted to critical hit instead. So their race benefit and similar benefits from other sources don't actually have any impact in attack roll itself, but its result.

[Longknife]

You can test it if you want. But it is what we have told it should do. In my understanding how it works is that there is 10% change in heart orlans case that any attack roll which result is hit is converted to critical hit instead. So their race benefit and similar benefits from other sources don't actually have any impact in attack roll itself, but its result.

 

 

Like I said I'm just skeptical about such mechanics as a rule because it's something that's very easy to misinterpret and likewise very easy for a developer to misinterpret while programming it and code it wrong, either with positive or negative results. Was hoping someone had peered into the code themselves and confirmed it firsthand for that reason.

[lord_wc]

Getting pretty close

By 'getting pretty close' you mean not close at all. The difference is 2,2%. That's about the whole damage boost orlan gets from his passive. So in that sense elf is twice as good. The difference is really huge.

 

So a +5 Accuracy bonus is essentially sinking the hit requirement of a d100 roll by 5? Am I right in understanding +15 accuracy (above deflection) would mean hits are negated then?

 

And just curious, where and how are you guys confirming it's a 10% bonus in the sense it's 10% of the hit amount?

 

AKA, in a normal scenario, how do we know it's not 15% crit, 35% grazes, 40% hits and 10% crits for Hearth Orlans?

Because the description doesn't say he has +10% crit chance but states that 10% hits will be converted to criticals. That statement is perfectly clear and means just that - if you have 50% chance to hit something that skill will convert 10% of that - or 5% points - to criticals.

Edited April 2, 2015 by lord_wc

[PIP-Clownboy]

It really depends on race/class in some cases. I would take death godlike on carnage barb 100/100 times over moon. 

[MadDemiurg]

Wood elf also get +5 reflex and deflection vs ranged attacks on top of this, which can't be neglected. So yeah, ranged > elf, melee > orlan. Also, orlans are getting -1 might, so it would be interesting to see how that fairs vs fish guys that essentially have 3 more might in terms of max dps. As it stands, stat wise orlan is better suited for tanking.

Edited April 2, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[gkathellar]

Deflection on a ranged character is wasted, but yes, the Reflex is worth something.

[Lasci]

The differences between wood elves and hearth orlans that you guys are arguing are small, tiny, nit-picking details that are still at the mercy of a d100 roll. Their efficacy varies wildly based on what that roll is and how high -- or low -- your accuracy is. You're also assuming that both races are in the most ideal situation, which is rarely if ever the case. Seriously. These differences are practically negligible, as is the difference between a 'god' tier of races and your supposed 'garbage' tier. The racial benefits are neat little bonuses rather than groundbreaking, character-defining abilities.

[Voss]

The differences between wood elves and hearth orlans that you guys are arguing are small, tiny, nit-picking details that are still at the mercy of a d100 roll. Their efficacy varies wildly based on what that roll is and how high -- or low -- your accuracy is. You're also assuming that both races are in the most ideal situation, which is rarely if ever the case.

 

Absurd.  Wood elf bonus is easy to get, nearly 100% of the time.  Tank blocks enemies, elf stands further back.   Ocassionally a spirit will teleport in close, but the elf can still target things farther away, and still get the bonus.   Same with the orlan bonus... if you can't have two characters attacking the same target, I don't have any idea how you're playing the game.

 

But yes, they are rather small bonuses.  That is how absolutely wretched the other racial bonuses are.

[Parsong]

I honestly wouldn't put Fire God-Like anywhere near my personal list, because in my parties barely no one ever takes damage.  To let my tank get 50% would mean I have to significantly nerf him.  And if he's not a tank, why is he in the front line taking damage? Counter-Intuitive, (one of the reason monk is a chore in this game).

 

CC stack/Deflect stack = too good.

 

But anyways,

 

1. Wild Orlan

2. Wood Elf

3. Harth Orlan.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Parsong

[dunehunter]

nature God like sucks so much

[Zaruthustran]

Seems like Fire Godlike is the way to go for a Barbarian.

 

Their ability triggers at 50% Endurance. Barbarians have low Deflection, so they quickly reach 50% Endurance. But they have a lot of Endurance, so after the DR kicks in they will stay in that "less than 50% more than 0%" range for quite a while. Each time they get hit, they deal fire damage. With a Barbarian's high Might, that damage will add up quickly.

 

In other words: with any race or ability that triggers at 50% Endurance, you want to reach 50% Endurance as fast as possible, and then stay in that sweet spot.

 

So, open combat with Frenzy (for the Deflection penalty) and get the crap beat out of you until below 50%. Then stay there with the added DR from Fire Godlike.

 

Multiply the efficacy with the Blooded ability (+ damage when below 50%). This bonus should apply to both the Fire aura and Carnage, as well as your main attacks.

 

I haven't tested that, but: does the above seem correct?

[mazeltov]

Humans are the pits ability-wise. Good thing my party is 66% Meadow Folk! At least Aloth and Kana have decent racials...

[Odd Hermit]

Seems like Fire Godlike is the way to go for a Barbarian.

 

Their ability triggers at 50% Endurance. Barbarians have low Deflection, so they quickly reach 50% Endurance. But they have a lot of Endurance, so after the DR kicks in they will stay in that "less than 50% more than 0%" range for quite a while. Each time they get hit, they deal fire damage. With a Barbarian's high Might, that damage will add up quickly.

 

In other words: with any race or ability that triggers at 50% Endurance, you want to reach 50% Endurance as fast as possible, and then stay in that sweet spot.

 

So, open combat with Frenzy (for the Deflection penalty) and get the crap beat out of you until below 50%. Then stay there with the added DR from Fire Godlike.

 

Multiply the efficacy with the Blooded ability (+ damage when below 50%). This bonus should apply to both the Fire aura and Carnage, as well as your main attacks.

 

I haven't tested that, but: does the above seem correct?

 

Yeah, but then you have to have a barbarian in your party.

 

Also staying below 50% and above "I'm about to get KOed" endurance levels is not that simple especially on the difficulties where a racial bonus is going to matter.

[maseren]

I approve of this post. Very helpful. Can we sticky it? 

[dunehunter]

The shining point of Human race ablity is that once your endurance is below 50% and the ability is triggered, then when you are healed to above 50%, the buff is still there, not like Fire or Nature godlike, whom need to stay under 50% endurance to get bonuses.

[Whipstitch]

I rather dislike the god-like and garbage tier terminology for a game like this, since it frankly rather overstates the effect racial abilities have on the majority of builds. There are real differences to discuss but this isn't a Street Fighter II Akuma vs. Cammy scenario. Hell, it's not even O. Sagat vs Cammy.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Whipstitch

[Epsilon Rose]

I'd argue that Death godlike should be higher. If you look at most of the ranged characters, and you have proper tanking, I would expect that by the time they get down to <50% endurance, most of the time the situation is unsalvageable or, at least, the small boost from a racial ability won't help. Conversely, every enemy you beat or get close to beating will be at low endurance at some point, meaning their racial will trigger and help you finish off the enemy quicker, either using less resources or letting you move onto the next threat quicker. That said, it depends quite heavily on what is meant by "Low Health."