Controversial Limerick Discussion

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

 

Are we seriously talking about trans people? Guys, go outside or something. They're like .05% of the population. 

 

So what's the threshold a minority has to reach before they become relevant to you? .1% of the population? 1%? 51%?

 

Who knows but they hardly exist so I don't know why we're dedicating this much conversation towards this issue. Just play the game and not worry about being able to romance a fictional character in a videogame. 

 

 

Hey, wait, so why aren't you playing the game instead of posting here, then?

 

 

 

 

Well, you've demonstrated that you don't respect others' beliefs or opinions, so I'm not going to respect yours.

 

Not that I was going to anyway, because I don't actually respect anyone's opinion save my own. On that idea we just disagree completely.

 

I knew I liked you.

 

 

Why thank you.

[Route1]

 

 

 

Are we seriously talking about trans people? Guys, go outside or something. They're like .05% of the population. 

 

So what's the threshold a minority has to reach before they become relevant to you? .1% of the population? 1%? 51%?

 

Who knows but they hardly exist so I don't know why we're dedicating this much conversation towards this issue. Just play the game and not worry about being able to romance a fictional character in a videogame. 

 

 

Hey, wait, so why aren't you playing the game instead of posting here, then?

 

 

 

 

Well, you've demonstrated that you don't respect others' beliefs or opinions, so I'm not going to respect yours.

 

Not that I was going to anyway, because I don't actually respect anyone's opinion save my own. On that idea we just disagree completely.

 

I knew I liked you.

 

 

Why thank you.

 

Because once in a while I browse the forums and I stumbled across this. It is a very strange thing. 

[darkpatriot]

 

Well, you've demonstrated that you don't respect others' beliefs or opinions, so I'm not going to respect yours.

 

Not that I was going to anyway, because I don't actually respect anyone's opinion save my own. On that idea we just disagree completely.

 

 

Where have I disrespected other's beliefs and opinions?  Disagreeing is not disrespecting.  If I am being perfectly honest, to hold the opinion that disagreeing with someone's opinion is disrespecting their opinion is a very dangerous way of thinking.  That is the line of reasoning that is the very core of intolerance and all of it's excesses throughout history.  And every time it has happened people thought they were doing the right thing and that they were on the right side of history.

Edited April 1, 2015 by darkpatriot

[Tsumetai]

 

Are we seriously talking about trans people? Guys, go outside or something. They're like .05% of the population. 

 

So what's the threshold a minority has to reach before they become relevant to you? .1% of the population? 1%? 51%?

 

Are we seriously talking about Route1? They're, like, .000000014% of the population.

[Route1]

All of you should just stop being offended at nothing. This is why people think people between the ages of 18-30 are a bunch of whiners. 

[sparklecat]

 

And because our hard lined stances on that matter, I am going to go ahead and remove myself from the thread instead of talking around in circles.

 

Good chat though, have a good day <3

 

Incidentally, since we're talking about respect and tolerance, this rather illustrates a key point - I'm not required to respect anyone else's opinions.  I'm not even required to respect them; respect is earned, both for people and what they say, through merit.  So while I still utterly do not respect PermTrouble's opinions on this topic and think they are wrong, I came to respect him/her because of the classy handling of the debate.

 

Likewise, I tolerate people's right to hold dumb opinions when I don't call for their imprisonment for expressing them.  Tolerance doesn't mean you get to be free of all consequences for expressing an opinion.

[Elerond]

 

Oh I found a gravestone called N-Space. Looked completely out of character so I clicked on it. 'Proud supporters of Obsidian and Pillars of Eternity'.

 

N-space is inherently racist, and I demand that it be censored as it refers to slave housing in antebellum America.

 

 

N-Space is game developer that currently is making Sword Coast Legends with Digital Extremes, so that memorial is actually their advertisement 

[Creslin321]

 

 

Oh I found a gravestone called N-Space. Looked completely out of character so I clicked on it. 'Proud supporters of Obsidian and Pillars of Eternity'.

 

N-space is inherently racist, and I demand that it be censored as it refers to slave housing in antebellum America.

 

 

N-Space is game developer that currently is making Sword Coast Legends with Digital Extremes, so that memorial is actually their advertisement 

 

 

Sorry, I was kidding.  It is funny that something as ridiculous as I said would be taken seriously in this climate though lol .

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

 

Well, you've demonstrated that you don't respect others' beliefs or opinions, so I'm not going to respect yours.

 

Not that I was going to anyway, because I don't actually respect anyone's opinion save my own. On that idea we just disagree completely.

 

 

Where have I disrespected other's beliefs and opinions?  Disagreeing is not disrespecting.  If I am being perfectly honest to hold the opinion that disagreeing with someone's opinion is disrespecting their opinion is a very dangerous way of thinking.  That is the line of reasoning that is the very core of intolerance and all of it's excesses throughout history.  And every time it happened people thought they were doing the right thing and were on the right side of history.

 

 

Oh man, we're getting so close to Godwin's law here, people, I can almost taste it! You can do it, darkpatriot! Which people exactly are you talking about throughout history who thought they were doing the right thing on the right side?

 

 

All of you should just stop being offended at nothing. This is why people think people between the ages of 18-30 are a bunch of whiners. 

 

This thread stopped being about the backer messages a while ago, I'm pretty certain, when some people started being genuinely offensive(?). I don't know, I haven't read the thread.

[Nixl]

 

 

And because our hard lined stances on that matter, I am going to go ahead and remove myself from the thread instead of talking around in circles.

 

Good chat though, have a good day <3

 

Incidentally, since we're talking about respect and tolerance, this rather illustrates a key point - I'm not required to respect anyone else's opinions.  I'm not even required to respect them; respect is earned, both for people and what they say, through merit.  So while I still utterly do not respect PermTrouble's opinions on this topic and think they are wrong, I came to respect him/her because of the classy handling of the debate.

 

Likewise, I tolerate people's right to hold dumb opinions when I don't call for their imprisonment for expressing them.  Tolerance doesn't mean you get to be free of all consequences for expressing an opinion.

 

I am not trying to be nitpicky or disingenuous, but who decides what is dumb, and who decides what deserves consequences?

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

 

 

And because our hard lined stances on that matter, I am going to go ahead and remove myself from the thread instead of talking around in circles.

 

Good chat though, have a good day <3

 

Incidentally, since we're talking about respect and tolerance, this rather illustrates a key point - I'm not required to respect anyone else's opinions.  I'm not even required to respect them; respect is earned, both for people and what they say, through merit.  So while I still utterly do not respect PermTrouble's opinions on this topic and think they are wrong, I came to respect him/her because of the classy handling of the debate.

 

Likewise, I tolerate people's right to hold dumb opinions when I don't call for their imprisonment for expressing them.  Tolerance doesn't mean you get to be free of all consequences for expressing an opinion.

 

I am not trying to be nitpicky or disingenuous, but who decides what is dumb, and who decides what deserves consequences?

 

 

You do, Nixl. I just got off the phone with all the world leaders, and they said it's your job now.

 

I might be being a little disingenuous.

Edited April 1, 2015 by TheUsernamelessOne

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Oh I found a gravestone called N-Space. Looked completely out of character so I clicked on it. 'Proud supporters of Obsidian and Pillars of Eternity'.

 

N-space is inherently racist, and I demand that it be censored as it refers to slave housing in antebellum America.

 

 

N-Space is game developer that currently is making Sword Coast Legends with Digital Extremes, so that memorial is actually their advertisement 

 

 

Sorry, I was kidding.  It is funny that something as ridiculous as I said would be taken seriously in this climate though lol .

 

 

I knew that you were kidding, but I thought to point out that memorial in question is actually bit questionable by itself, but it is to Obsidian to decide what they want to show in their game (people are of course free to disagree).

[sparklecat]

 

 

 

And because our hard lined stances on that matter, I am going to go ahead and remove myself from the thread instead of talking around in circles.

 

Good chat though, have a good day <3

 

Incidentally, since we're talking about respect and tolerance, this rather illustrates a key point - I'm not required to respect anyone else's opinions.  I'm not even required to respect them; respect is earned, both for people and what they say, through merit.  So while I still utterly do not respect PermTrouble's opinions on this topic and think they are wrong, I came to respect him/her because of the classy handling of the debate.

 

Likewise, I tolerate people's right to hold dumb opinions when I don't call for their imprisonment for expressing them.  Tolerance doesn't mean you get to be free of all consequences for expressing an opinion.

 

I am not trying to be nitpicky or disingenuous, but who decides what is dumb, and who decides what deserves consequences?

 

When I call people's opinions dumb, that's my subjective opinion.  Actually it's not the nicest way to express it; let's just go with wrong or sometimes uninformed instead.

 

I'm not really big on consequences being deserved, but I think demanding that you get to say whatever you want without anyone telling you it's not acceptable is ridiculous.

[Creslin321]

 

 

 

 

Oh I found a gravestone called N-Space. Looked completely out of character so I clicked on it. 'Proud supporters of Obsidian and Pillars of Eternity'.

 

N-space is inherently racist, and I demand that it be censored as it refers to slave housing in antebellum America.

 

 

N-Space is game developer that currently is making Sword Coast Legends with Digital Extremes, so that memorial is actually their advertisement 

 

 

Sorry, I was kidding.  It is funny that something as ridiculous as I said would be taken seriously in this climate though lol .

 

 

I knew that you were kidding, but I thought to point out that memorial in question is actually bit questionable by itself, but it is to Obsidian to decide what they want to show in their game (people are of course free to disagree).

 

 

Yeah there's no argument that these memorials definitely break the 4th wall, and they are out of place in the game world.  But w/e, the game wouldn't exist without the backers, and they are at most a minor annoyance that can be easily avoided, so they don't bother me much.

[Mungri]

I remember in Dungeons and Dragons online there's a tombstone dedicated to Gary Gygax near a mission he voiced. But he died that's why. But in this game random tombstones for supporters are just everywhere.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

I remember in Dungeons and Dragons online there's a tombstone dedicated to Gary Gygax near a mission he voiced. But he died that's why. But in this game random tombstones for supporters are just everywhere.

 

Well. There's only one solution, then. *gets out stabby bits and makes a list*

[Amentep]

*shrug*

 

@OP:

I stopped paying attention to them. I did read a lot of them and thought they were cool and all but.... so many of them! They eventually fell into the shroud of my ignorance, and became "commoners".

 

The only issue I had was that, you could reach out to their souls before the tree in Gilded Vale (which, narratively, felt like the first time). It felt a bit like a paradox in the MC's powers and I had to make-believe/pretend/imagine my MC never having reached out to any of the Backer NPC's prior to that.

 

You can talk to the spirit in the cave and see ghosts running in the woods and the apparitions at the machine and in the woods all before guilded vale tree quest.  So it didn't bother me.

[Nixl]

 

 

 

 

And because our hard lined stances on that matter, I am going to go ahead and remove myself from the thread instead of talking around in circles.

 

Good chat though, have a good day <3

 

Incidentally, since we're talking about respect and tolerance, this rather illustrates a key point - I'm not required to respect anyone else's opinions.  I'm not even required to respect them; respect is earned, both for people and what they say, through merit.  So while I still utterly do not respect PermTrouble's opinions on this topic and think they are wrong, I came to respect him/her because of the classy handling of the debate.

 

Likewise, I tolerate people's right to hold dumb opinions when I don't call for their imprisonment for expressing them.  Tolerance doesn't mean you get to be free of all consequences for expressing an opinion.

 

I am not trying to be nitpicky or disingenuous, but who decides what is dumb, and who decides what deserves consequences?

 

When I call people's opinions dumb, that's my subjective opinion.  Actually it's not the nicest way to express it; let's just go with wrong or sometimes uninformed instead.

 

I'm not really big on consequences being deserved, but I think demanding that you get to say whatever you want without anyone telling you it's not acceptable is ridiculous.

 

A fair answer, but I think this situations goes beyond just stating that something does not sit well with another.  It is about removing messages and ideas because it does not fit with a viewpoint. 

 

If the joke is horrible, then it is fair to call it horrible, but to erase/censor it feels like an extreme remedy. 

 

edit: Grammar

Edited April 1, 2015 by Nixl

[Creslin321]

 

 

 

I would like at this point to note again that the message in question is not a part of Obsidian's artistic vision for their product; it is a backer message put in because the person in question paid for it.  We're talking about a commercial, not an installation in a modern art museum.

I am not sure that I understand the distinction between commercial and artistic vision, since both are in view of the player.  In fact, one needs to go out of his or her way to find the message.

 

Mostly I'm just saying that acting like we're mangling some precious work of art by taking out a backer message and comparing it to the Charlie Hebdo situation is really pushing it. 

 

I would argue the debate does not depend on whether the work is precious or not, but rather the act of removing/censoring a message.  The act of censorship is not good in any instance.   

 

 

Ehhh...I would disagree

 

I would say that removing a message because it offends someone is, by definition, censorship.  However, I would also say that not all censorship is bad.  For example, I doubt most major news organizations would give a segment to the KKK.  This is definitely censorship, but I am for the censoring of hate speech, so I regard it as good censorship.

 

That said, I think that any policy of censorship really needs to be thought out carefully, and it needs to be applied fairly throughout society.

 

You want to censor hate speech?  Fine, but you need to clearly define what hate speech is, and you need to censor it REGARDLESS of the origin or the target.

 

So when I look at the requests to censor this limerick, I basically see a request to censor a joke that offended someone.  It is by no stretch of the imagination "hate speech."

 

And if this joke were censored, then I would think it's only fair to censor any other jokes that offend someone.

 

So if a blonde gets mad at a blonde joke, if a religious person gets mad at an offensive drawing of one of their figures, if a lawyer gets upset at a lawyer joke, then all those should be censored as well.

 

Personally, I think that is going WAY too far, which is why I'm firmly AGAINST censoring this limerick.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Creslin321

[Diogenes]

How about just saying "hey this is kinda uncool, maybe put something else in"

[sparklecat]

A fair answer, but I think this situations goes beyond just stating that something does not sit well with another.  It is about removing messages and ideas because it does not fit with a viewpoint. 

 

If the joke is horrible, then it is fair to call it horrible, but to erase/censor it feels like an extreme remedy. 

 

edit: Grammar

 

More about removing a joke that targets an oppressed group and was painful to some of its members to encounter.

Edited April 1, 2015 by sparklecat

[sparklecat]

How about just saying "hey this is kinda uncool, maybe put something else in"

According to one random person on the internet, the backer in question is fine with doing so!

[Nixl]

Creslin321, I can see your point, but censoring seems like an extreme remedy.  People can answer "bad" opinions/speech with speech of their own.  People who see "bad" speech have options beyond censorship. 

 

 

 

More about removing a joke that targets an oppressed group and was painful to some of them to encounter.

 

Alright, but does that warrant all out censorship of an idea or message as the first remedy?

 

That being said, Pillars of Eternity also is a game that not only features lynchings, but also has characters glorify it.  Is that not more troubling than a backer message that one has to go out of his or her way to find?

Edited April 1, 2015 by Nixl

[TheUsernamelessOne]

How about just saying "hey this is kinda uncool, maybe put something else in"

 

Still looking for someone an honest man, by the way, Diogenes?

[sparklecat]

 

 

 

 

I would like at this point to note again that the message in question is not a part of Obsidian's artistic vision for their product; it is a backer message put in because the person in question paid for it.  We're talking about a commercial, not an installation in a modern art museum.

I am not sure that I understand the distinction between commercial and artistic vision, since both are in view of the player.  In fact, one needs to go out of his or her way to find the message.

 

Mostly I'm just saying that acting like we're mangling some precious work of art by taking out a backer message and comparing it to the Charlie Hebdo situation is really pushing it. 

 

I would argue the debate does not depend on whether the work is precious or not, but rather the act of removing/censoring a message.  The act of censorship is not good in any instance.   

 

 

Ehhh...I would disagree

 

I would say that removing a message because it offends someone is, by definition, censorship.  However, I would also say that not all censorship is bad.  For example, I doubt most major news organizations would give a segment to the KKK.  This is definitely censorship, but I am for the censoring of hate speech, so I regard it as good censorship.

 

That said, I think that any policy of censorship really needs to be thought out carefully, and it needs to be applied fairly throughout society.

 

You want to censor hate speech?  Fine, but you need to clearly define what hate speech is, and you need to censor it REGARDLESS of the origin or the target.

 

So when I look at the requests to censor this limerick, I basically see a request to censor a joke that offended someone.  It is by no stretch of the imagination "hate speech."

 

And if this joke were censored, then I would think it's only fair to censor any other jokes that offend someone.

 

So if a blonde gets mad at a blonde joke, if a religious person gets mad at an offensive drawing of one of their figures, if a lawyer gets upset at a lawyer joke, then all those should be censored as well.

 

Personally, I think that is going WAY too far, which is why I'm firmly AGAINST censoring this limerick.

 

Except that the entire point of hate speech as a category is the target.  Simply targeting someone because of the fact that they belong to some group isn't hate speech.  It has to be a protected group that's historically been the victims of oppression.  If the speech in question isn't contributing to systemic discrimination, it's toothless.