Memorials problem.

[Wulfburk]

Obsidian we trust you man, do not delete any of these backer memorials!

[Ecto]

 

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

There is no discussion. People organize with mob tactics to get something removed they do not like. This is exactly censorship.

 

Mob tactics? I haven't seen any threats of violence or anything like that, have you?

 

Threatening to withdraw your business from a company that does things you disagree with looks to me like the free market solution. Telling the company that you disagree with their decision cannot in my view reasonably be seen as censorship.

[McFeeb]

 

 

 

Believe me, I am in no way wanting to cave in to crazy people.

 

However, the backer toggle HAS been requested before, and this would be a good way of not only solving the issue, but giving what others have been asking for already.

 

Besides, at least my main issue here is to protect the game content from being unilaterally changed to suit a loud minority who may not even be the target demographic of this game (as seen on this forum, where most backers are against the change). I am, however, entirely in favor of the player having toggles to butcher game content at his own leisure to suit his non-standard sensibilities.

 

In my case, I would love to remove all backer content, as the quality in general is pretty low (the poem in question, however, is an exception, as it is pretty funny and makes sense in the context of the game). I have seen similar requests even before this controversy.

 

 

 

You could always just not click on it.

 

It has its own icon and everything.

 

 

I mean you gotta give them something - meet halfway and call it done. Obviously it offends some people so whats the harm in making it optional? To absolutely refuse any kind of compromise is just stubborn IMO. As much as I agree its a non issues, others think it is, so IF something is going to change, it should just be made optional. There - problem solved, everyone should be happy.

 

But by no means - do NOT remove it. Worst thing that could be done at this point. It would just further encourage radicals and anger people who dont like censorship (or what they interpret as censorship) and offend the backers who donated so much money to the project (and were the actual target audience in the first place....) Compromise is good, and perhaps necessary for Obsidian to get themselves out of a bad situation.

 

 

 

Why do you have to give them something? 

 

You have literal crazy people making demands of you (#killallmen).

 

What does pandering to them gain for you?

[Chaz]

 

In this cultural context, the transphobic interpretation of the poem seems to me the more likely, and that's why I favour removing it from the game. Especially because I don't see it as in any way integral to the developer vision, so I don't see this stifling Obsidian's creativity in any way worth mentioning.

 

 

Why remove it? why not just ignore the tombstone and play the game? if you think this joke is harmful in real life I'd like to see some evidence for this claim, but usually people just shy away when evidence is asked.

 

Also if this joke was so harmful, this little fake outrage campaign just drew much much more attention to the joke and made it famous, so...  good job? 

 

Yes and Im sorry but I will bring this up in every post, the person that asked removal of the joke on tiwtter wants to KILL ALL MEN.

 

And the journalist that brought this to the attention of Sawyer was supportiv of the genocide of the jewish people.

 

I have to bring this up every time because the censorship apologists seem to want to conveniently ignore it.

 

The people that asked for censorhip of the game are very questionable people, horrible in my opinion, and they should be ignored.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Chaz

[PBJam]

I think too much drama

 

just dont read the tombstones and be done with it

[Sight Unseen]

Just want to add my voice to the crowd that's saying DON'T REMOVE THIS!!!

 

The majority of people complaining most likely never played or plan on playing your game and are just being told to be offended by their SJW masters. Your backers seem to be overwhelmingly against censoring this content.

 

If you cave in and censor this content, I will lose a lot of the confidence and trust that I've invested into your company and likely won't be purchasing any more of your games. Stand up to the bullies and don't let them beat you into a corner and take away your artistic freedoms! Draw the line here!

[Svirfneblin]

I'll just add my vote that I will lose a lot of respect for them if they give in to the "offended" brigade.

 

This shouldn't even be a consideration. They just released a game with fetus nazi zombies in it giving the player the ability to perform abortions and even PoE has allusions and plot elements regarding genocide, rape, prejudice, matricide etc.

 

**** these people and everything they stand for. Being "offended" over something doesn't mean anything and doesn't give them any rights to change the content for everyone else or override the original Backers wishes.

 

I'm gonna say as a general statement that Obsidian has probably already changed what some backers decided to write. I don't see how they're obligated to put exactly what the backers wrote into their product.

[brightsim]

If this gets removed I will never back/buy an Obsidian game again. Would be a shame, I love PoE and pretty much all previous titles.

 

edit: an on-/off-option for tombstone messages seems OK though.

Edited March 30, 2015 by brightsim

[Chaz]

 

I'll just add my vote that I will lose a lot of respect for them if they give in to the "offended" brigade.

 

This shouldn't even be a consideration. They just released a game with fetus nazi zombies in it giving the player the ability to perform abortions and even PoE has allusions and plot elements regarding genocide, rape, prejudice, matricide etc.

 

**** these people and everything they stand for. Being "offended" over something doesn't mean anything and doesn't give them any rights to change the content for everyone else or override the original Backers wishes.

 

I'm gonna say as a general statement that Obsidian has probably already changed what some backers decided to write. I don't see how they're obligated to put exactly what the backers wrote into their product.

 

 

Yes and the joke on that tombstone was aleady approved by obsidian, they decide what goes in the game, not some Twitter Lynch Mob of offended people that didn't even buy the game judging by many of their tweets

[Hellraiser789]

 

Why do you have to give them something? 

 

You have literal crazy people making demands of you (#killallmen).

 

What does pandering to them gain for you?

 

 

Because its not ONLY crazy people like #killallmen that have a problem with it. Yeah, theyre the vocal minority, but obviously there are members of the LGBT community who don't appreciate the joke being in the game. PLUS there's already people who want to see the backer content made optional ANYWAY. Two birds one stone. As to why you would do it and what you'd gain - profit. Potentially, there are LGBT consumers who are so offended by this they dont want to buy the game (a bit excessive IMO but to each his/her own). Also, does it really detract from anyone's gameplay by making it optional? Not really. Where's the hurt in giving them that? Makes the LGBT community happy and doesn't (shouldn't) offend the backers (or anti-censorship folks). Just trying to appease everyone isn't a bad thing when there's really no detriment or harm in doing so.

 

I'm not really sure how I could provide you with "evidence" that it was transphobic. You've seem it the same as I. If you want, I can provide you with my reasoning. First of all, I don't think that the poem was necessarily intended to be transphobic. I can't really speak to the author's intent. However, I do find that the most obvious interpretation of it would be transphobic, and that's why I applaud Obsidian taking it out of the game (assuming that's what they're planning on doing).

The pertinent lines of the poem are these two:

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran

 

If we read it at face value - he had sex with a cis man who he thought was a woman, then it doesn't make much sense. Why didn't he notice the genitals differing from what he would expect? I mean it's not impossible or anything, but it seems like the author might have elaborated with some sort of explanation if this was the case.

 

The other, transphobic, interpretation though, is fairly straightforward. Firedorn had sex with a trans woman, realized it after the fact and ran off a cliff in shame because he considers trans women to be men (and having sex with men is suicide-level horrible, apparently). The reason that this interpretation seems more likely to me, is that it doesn't seem like it requires elaboration to make sense, and that the situation of having sex with a trans woman unknowingly is a fairly common trope. Disclosure - the idea that trans women have an obligation or at least really ought to inform all their sexual partners that they are trans is a common topic in the public discourse. Hell, there's even a Trans Panic Defense occasionally used by people who commit violence against trans people.

 

In this cultural context, the transphobic interpretation of the poem seems to me the more likely, and that's why I favour removing it from the game. Especially because I don't see it as in any way integral to the developer vision, so I don't see this stifling Obsidian's creativity in any way worth mentioning.

 

 

As far as I can tell, they only mentioned that they would look into it. Not that it was getting removed necessarily.

 

Also, from my perspective, and many others apparently, I didnt even CONSIDER that the guy slept with a transgendered person. I just figured he got drunk and woke up in bed with a guy and killed himself because hes an idiot, or the shock, or whatever; basically he overreacted and the joke was meant to be at his expense. There was no bashing of the guy/transgendered person he slept with or any violence against them, just a joke at the man's (Firedorn) expense because he died stupidly because he overreacted. Thats how a lot of people interpreted it. Transgenderism (?) didnt even cross my mind, and probably didnt cross a lot of others peoples mind either.

 

However, I can respect that you might interpret it different (as you've stated), and think itd be fair to make it optional. But removing it completely for everyone? Especially with all of the darker and sinister things that happen throughout the game? I think that's a little excessive for a little limerick joke, especially when it has no impact on the main story and is already completely optional to view.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Hellraiser789

[Ecto]

 

 

In this cultural context, the transphobic interpretation of the poem seems to me the more likely, and that's why I favour removing it from the game. Especially because I don't see it as in any way integral to the developer vision, so I don't see this stifling Obsidian's creativity in any way worth mentioning.

 

 

Why remove it? why not just ignore the tombstone and play the game? if you think this joke is harmful in real life I'd like to see some evidence for this claim, but usually people just shy away when evidence is asked.

 

Also if this joke was so harmful, this little fake outrage campaign just drew much much more attention to the joke and made it famous, so...  good job?

 

 

The game is part of the same cultural context I mentioned in my post - transphobic jokes help perpetuate a culture of transphobia. It's the same reason I try to avoid media with racist, sexist, homophobic or otherwise oppressive content. I don't want my money to contribute to turning the media tone even further hostile towards marginalized groups. The point of speaking up then, is to make the people who want my money aware of it, so they have a chance to cater to the consumer segment that I represent. Not much different from asking for other stuff. I'd like more frequent autosaves, some more interesting looking equipment icons and the absence of transphobia. For some reason people really don't like it when I ask for that last one.

 

I don't know why you think it's a fake outrage campaign. I obviously don't know the mind of other people who agree with me, but for my part, there's nothing fake here. Just a sincere request to try and turn the public dialogue less hostile towards marginalized groups. And sure, complaining about the joke has definitely brought more attention to it. But really, staying quiet about it isn't going to change anything.

[Svirfneblin]

 

 

I'll just add my vote that I will lose a lot of respect for them if they give in to the "offended" brigade.

 

This shouldn't even be a consideration. They just released a game with fetus nazi zombies in it giving the player the ability to perform abortions and even PoE has allusions and plot elements regarding genocide, rape, prejudice, matricide etc.

 

**** these people and everything they stand for. Being "offended" over something doesn't mean anything and doesn't give them any rights to change the content for everyone else or override the original Backers wishes.

 

I'm gonna say as a general statement that Obsidian has probably already changed what some backers decided to write. I don't see how they're obligated to put exactly what the backers wrote into their product.

 

 

Yes and the joke on that tombstone was aleady approved by obsidian, they decide what goes in the game, not some Twitter Lynch Mob of offended people that didn't even buy the game judging by many of their tweets

 

 

Given the general quality of the memorial stones and Sawyer's reaction, I think it's fair to say that there may have been some oversight with reahrds to the backer content. If Obsidian removes it, I'll assume that's because they don't think it fits in their game and I'm cool with that.

[PrimeJunta]

Boys and girls, observe: this is how culture changes.

 

Leave the text in or take it out, after the sh1tstorm the usual oppressed-white-male contingent has raised, Obsidz is guaranteed to be super-careful about never getting into this situation again.

 

Heads we win, tails they lose. Neener neener!

[Chaz]

 

I don't know why you think it's a fake outrage campaign. I obviously don't know the mind of other people who agree with me, but for my part, there's nothing fake here. Just a sincere request to try an d turn the public dialogue less hostile towards marginalized groups. And sure, complaining about the joke has definitely brought more attention to it. But really, staying quiet about it isn't going to change anything.

 

 

Actually you have to consider that staying quiet in THIS particular case would have left that tombstone just as an obscure part of the game that only a handful were aware of, but no, the trend today is to make gigantic issues out of nothing and for people to ask removal of content that many many people that pledged for the game are not bothered by.

 

While at the same time I see a lot of folk plugging their patreon account, and tweeting about #killallmen. this is ridiculous, this is not about justice this is about a handful of people that want to be relevant and profit from scandals.

[Nosmirc]

Because its not ONLY crazy people like #killallmen that have a problem with it. Yeah, theyre the vocal minority, but obviously there are members of the LGBT community who don't appreciate the joke being in the game.

 

But they don't speak for the entirely of that group of people. There are LGBT that are perfectly fine with it, some have even posted in this thread stating such.

 

And when you look at the histories of some of these objectors, they're largely just looking for stuff to get mad at. So it makes little sense to pander to them. Especially since it opens Obsidian to more harassment to pressure them to change other things. There are distinct cons that are quite possible here, and standing up to bullies who try to force developers to change their content (be it from them or their backers) is something that should be the norm.

[Hellraiser789]

Boys and girls, observe: this is how culture changes.

 

Leave the text in or take it out, after the sh1tstorm the usual oppressed-white-male contingent has raised, Obsidz is guaranteed to be super-careful about never getting into this situation again.

 

Heads we win, tails they lose. Neener neener!

 

And that's kind of a shame really. Something this relatively small shouldn't mean that LGBT content should never be included in games. It just means that maybe this isn't the game for that (doesnt fit designers' image maybe?), So its kind of a shame that some ridiculous extremists on twitter get to screw everything up for everybody else. But, I guess thats how the world works, so we should just accept it right? ~sigh~ Why can't people just be reasonable?

 

 

 

Because its not ONLY crazy people like #killallmen that have a problem with it. Yeah, theyre the vocal minority, but obviously there are members of the LGBT community who don't appreciate the joke being in the game.

 

But they don't speak for the entirely of that group of people. There are LGBT that are perfectly fine with it, some have even posted in this thread stating such.

 

And when you look at the histories of some of these objectors, they're largely just looking for stuff to get mad at. So it makes little sense to pander to them. Especially since it opens Obsidian to more harassment to pressure them to change other things. There are distinct cons that are quite possible here, and standing up to bullies who try to force developers to change their content (be it from them or their backers) is something that should be the norm.

 

 

I understand that they dont speak for the whole LGBT community, but obviously it offended more than just a handful of people. And its not removing it for EVERYONE, just making it optional...

 

At the same time, I can't argue about your second point. It COULD potentially open them up to having to potentially make any and all content ANYONE finds offensive be optional. Which would just be ridiculous and stupid, especially considering the darker and grim nature of the game. My only argument would be that, because its specifically backer content it could be made optional (as its not necessarily in line with the devs' vision of the game), and if people are still offended or want to make changes, then this just isnt the game for them and they need to accept that.

 

Just my opinion. I'd like to please as many people as possible, but I do understand your point, as I agree that, for ME, its not really even an issue or even worth mentioning, honestly.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Hellraiser789

[Chaz]

 

Boys and girls, observe: this is how culture changes.

 

Leave the text in or take it out, after the sh1tstorm the usual oppressed-white-male contingent has raised, Obsidz is guaranteed to be super-careful about never getting into this situation again.

 

Heads we win, tails they lose. Neener neener!

 

And that's kind of a shame really. Something this relatively small shouldn't mean that LGBT content should never be included in games. It just means that maybe this isn't the game for that (doesnt fit designers' image maybe?), So its kind of a shame that some ridiculous extremists on twitter get to screw everything up for everybody else. But, I guess thats how the world works, so we should just accept it right? ~sigh~ Why can't people just be reasonable?

 

 

 

Some people tried to be reasonable, Totalbiscuit tried to be start dialogue about on this Soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/pillars-of-transphobia 

 

The result from the always offended crowd was as mature as you could expect, they started two hashtags one was #Shutthe****upTotalBiscuit and the other was #ShutUptotalBiscuit.

 

Aslo Katherine Cross from Feminist frequency show called him a "transphone of the highest degree"  and Leigh Alexander formerly from Gamasutra also attacked him. Now people like Alexander basically live off donations from her followers, she needs to stay relevant through scandals to keep getting money, so it's up to you to decide if they are really allies for justice or just people trying to turn any little thing into a big scandal to stay relevant themselves.

[Ecto]

 

I don't know why you think it's a fake outrage campaign. I obviously don't know the mind of other people who agree with me, but for my part, there's nothing fake here. Just a sincere request to try an d turn the public dialogue less hostile towards marginalized groups. And sure, complaining about the joke has definitely brought more attention to it. But really, staying quiet about it isn't going to change anything.

 

 

Actually you have to consider that staying quiet in THIS particular case would have left that tombstone just as an obscure part of the game that only a handful were aware of, but no, the trend today is to make gigantic issues out of nothing and for people to ask removal of content that many many people that pledged for the game are not bothered by.

 

While at the same time I see a lot of folk plugging their patreon account, and tweeting about #killallmen. this is ridiculous, this is not about justice this is about a handful of people that want to be relevant and profit from scandals.

 

Yeah, I meant staying quiet won't change anything in the wider context of society. As PrimeJunta somewhat facetiously mentioned, at the very least this might result in Obsidian (and other developers who are paying attention) to be mindful of this kind of thing in the future.

 

Having a Patreon account or tweeting a silly hashtag doesn't discount an argument, nor does it necessarily mean your opinions aren't sincerely held. 

[Hellraiser789]

 

 

Boys and girls, observe: this is how culture changes.

 

Leave the text in or take it out, after the sh1tstorm the usual oppressed-white-male contingent has raised, Obsidz is guaranteed to be super-careful about never getting into this situation again.

 

Heads we win, tails they lose. Neener neener!

 

And that's kind of a shame really. Something this relatively small shouldn't mean that LGBT content should never be included in games. It just means that maybe this isn't the game for that (doesnt fit designers' image maybe?), So its kind of a shame that some ridiculous extremists on twitter get to screw everything up for everybody else. But, I guess thats how the world works, so we should just accept it right? ~sigh~ Why can't people just be reasonable?

 

 

 

Some people tried to be reasonable, Totalbiscuit tried to be start dialogue about on this Soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/pillars-of-transphobia 

 

The result from the always offended crowd was as mature as you could expect, they started two hashtags one was #Shutthe****upTotalBiscuit and the other was #ShutUptotalBiscuit.

 

Aslo Katherine Cross from Feminist frequency show called him a "transphone of the highest degree"  and Leigh Alexander formerly from Gamasutra also attacked him. Now people like Alexander basically live off donations from her followers, she needs to stay relevant through scandals to keep getting money, so it's up to you to decide if they are really allies for justice or just people trying to turn any little thing into a big scandal to stay relevant themselves.

 

 

Can't say your wrong. I half-listened to TotalBiscuits dialogue, and didn't really find anything offensive, and it seemed like they (the twitter people) really took a lot out of context (wasn't paying that close attention to be honest). But I'm not saying that I agree with icequeenerika by any means. That whole twitter group is just insane IMO and shouldnt even be worth anyones time. But, obviously some people HAVE been offended, and I'd like to think they aren't ALL unreasonable morons who blindly follow #killallmen. Some people on this forum and others have brought up legit concerns about why it offends them (whether everyone views it as legit or offensive is irrelevant - they do, so thats enough IMO). So whats wrong with compromising and making it optional? Doesn't force anyone either way, and as long as its made clear that the devs only did it because they dont want the backers' content to reflect poorly on them or their vision for the game, I dont see it as an issues. That way, if anyone has a problem with any of the dev's actual content, well then they simply shouldn't play the game. Its Obsidian's game and reputation, and their lost profits - realistically none of us are actually financially reliant on this game so...the choice lies with the devs. Just my 2 cents though.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Hellraiser789

[Ekaros]

Caving in on censhorship isn't ever good idea. I don't think these is very immersive joke, but then again name under it also isn't. I'm against removing singular instances in game, but still support the option to remove backer-content as whole.

 

Now someone is offended by this. Then again I'm offended by lot of things, should these also be removed? I would guess that one could argue for removal of decent part of backer-content by finding some way of it being offensive.  That doesn't mean it should be done...

[Chaz]

 

 

I don't know why you think it's a fake outrage campaign. I obviously don't know the mind of other people who agree with me, but for my part, there's nothing fake here. Just a sincere request to try an d turn the public dialogue less hostile towards marginalized groups. And sure, complaining about the joke has definitely brought more attention to it. But really, staying quiet about it isn't going to change anything.

 

 

Actually you have to consider that staying quiet in THIS particular case would have left that tombstone just as an obscure part of the game that only a handful were aware of, but no, the trend today is to make gigantic issues out of nothing and for people to ask removal of content that many many people that pledged for the game are not bothered by.

 

While at the same time I see a lot of folk plugging their patreon account, and tweeting about #killallmen. this is ridiculous, this is not about justice this is about a handful of people that want to be relevant and profit from scandals.

 

Yeah, I meant staying quiet won't change anything in the wider context of society. As PrimeJunta somewhat facetiously mentioned, at the very least this might result in Obsidian (and other developers who are paying attention) to be mindful of this kind of thing in the future.

 

Having a Patreon account or tweeting a silly hashtag doesn't discount an argument, nor does it necessarily mean your opinions aren't sincerely held. 

 

 

Each developer will see it differently, many are coming to really resent this kind of nonsense but they dont speak for fear of losing their jobs, the only ones I see that speak about this kind of stuff without fear are the CEOs who are at no risk of beign fired, people like DAniel Vavra, Brad Wardell, David Scott Jaffe, etc.

 

Make no mistake, I support equal rights for everyone, so you can see me as someone that is 95% on your side, but I dont support the removal of content from the game because a twitter lynch mob of genocide supporters asked for it.

 

If Obsidian wants to develop a toggle that would make the text from the tombs dissapear It's up to them, I think that would be a mess to program and it would come in a patch later down the line.

 

Also do you really want to erase a huge chunk of content from the game because 1% you didnt like? besides everybody already saw the joke, so disabling backer content just will delete a ton other content that was NOT offensive

[PaintingInAir]

Wow, this thread is getting replies by the minute.

[Kurgen]

They should not give in to that attention-craving, man-hating sociopath and her baying twitter minions. It's that simple. To compromise a product in any way at all, simply to appease this tiny minority of loudmouths is a slippery slope. It should be ignored, completely. What's more important Obsidian, a few sales, or your integrity?

[ruzen]

Wow, this thread is getting replies by the minute.

Because Obsidian is facing serius trolling group

[Ekaros]

 

Wow, this thread is getting replies by the minute.

Because Obsidian is facing serius trolling group

 

 

And there is large population who are tired of their favorite medium being taken to direction they don't like. I want developers to have opportunity to present content they want. And don't want that content to be controlled by any faction. There is lot of things I consider harmful, but I'm not against presenting them in media or fight for their removal. And I believe lot of usually quiet people agree with me.