Combat Mechanics? Attack Speed, Recovery

[peddroelm]

I wonder if swift strikes might actually benefit more 2h weapons  using monks in heaviest armor ..

 

They do the damage to lose less % of damage per DR and also their lash components (torment strike, turning wheel , elemental on weapon.. Might even make lightning strikes do something if they crit even at 10% vs 25% DR ) will lose less  damage to 25% DR.. What they desperately need is attack SPEED .. Barbs get frenzy .. Monks get swift strikes ..  Might try some tests for myself ..

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[peddroelm]

on the Might vs  Attack speed (..DEX ..) balance .. (obvious stuff )

 

-might bonus (damage bonuses) is(are) additive - but does NOT increase damage lost to DR (by weapon damage AND lash effects), on the contrary

-attack speed bonuses "multiplicative"  (not truly since they speed up only parts of the animation chain) BUT also increases amount of damage lost to DR .. (by weapon damage and lash effects ) so gain from them rarely as high as expected with weak hitting weapons..

 

And for all people dissing accuracy - there might be an insignificant gap between graze,hit and crit damage with high sum of damage modifiers - there is still an ENORMOUS GAP between graze & MISS (* 0 damage) .. Enemy Accuracy debuffs can easily bring your hard hitters hit resolution into a place where they can roll miss vs high DR Deflection foes on POTD ..

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[Matt516]

on the Might vs  Attack speed (..DEX ..) balance .. (obvious stuff )

 

-might bonus (damage bonuses) is(are) additive - but does NOT increase damage lost to DR (by weapon damage AND lash effects), on the contrary

-attack speed bonuses "multiplicative"  (not truly since they speed up only parts of the animation chain) BUT also increases amount of damage lost to DR .. (by weapon damage and lash effects ) so gain from them rarely as high as expected with weak hitting weapons..

 

And for all people dissing accuracy - there might be an insignificant gap between graze,hit and crit damage with high sum of damage modifiers - there is still an ENORMOUS GAP between graze & MISS (* 0 damage) .. Enemy Accuracy debuffs can easily bring your hard hitters hit resolution into a place where they can roll miss vs high DR foes on POTD ..

 

Attack speed boni are still multiplicative no matter what parts of the animation chain they speed up - it's still increasing your total attacks per second, which effectively scales multiplicatively with all other damage modifiers. It just may not scale as much as the displayed numbers would indicate.. but it's still multiplicative.

[peddroelm]

going a bit of topic here went and tested a bit 2handed monk with lash damage emphasis

 

Fun with 2h handed monk and lash multipliers ..

 

Damage multiplier 1 +  0.27 (might) + 0.15 (fine weapon) + 0.15 (two handed weapon)  + 0.2 (savage attack)

25% corrosion

 

Ex 1

 

hit vs Troll DR 8    (16 crush  4 fire,corrode)   .. 2 handed staff of corrosion ..

 

32.2 - DR(16.0)= 16.2 Crush + 12.1 Crush + 13.5 B + 1.2 Shock + 7 corrode = 50

 

lash ("multiplicative") damage

32.2 * 0.5 - 16*0.25 =12.1   // 50% crush Torments reach

32.2 * ( 0.05 * 9) - 4*0.25  = 13.49 // 9 tuning wheel wounds

32.2 * 0.1 - 8*0.25 = 1.22  // lightning strikes (sucks)

32.2 * 0.25 - 4*0.25 = 7.05 // 25% corrode  on staff

 

Ex 2

crit vs Sporeling 7 (14 crush, 3.5 corrode)   2 handed staff of corrosion

 

37.6 - DR (14.0) = 23.6 Crush + 15.3 crush + 15.2 Burn + 2 shock + 8.5 Corrode = 65

 

lash ("multiplicative") damage

37.6 * 0.5 - 14 * 0.25 = 15.3 // 50% torments reach

37.6 * (0.05*9) - 7 * 0.25 = 15.17 // 9 turning wheel wounds

37.6 * 0.1 - 7 * 0.25 = 2.01 // lightning strikes (still sucks)

37.6 * 0.25 - 3.5 * 0.25 = 8.525 // 25% corrode on staff

 

..Main concern here is getting stun locked as point man ..And if you use it from flank you won't have the wound power to burn their asses ..  Still something to try more ..

[MadDemiurg]

Attack speed bonuses are multiplicative with damage bonuses but additive with other attack speed bonuses. So it's worth considering what kind of attack speed bonuses your class can get (and any class gets quite a bit through potions)

[Matt516]

Attack speed bonuses are multiplicative with damage bonuses but additive with other attack speed bonuses. So it's worth considering what kind of attack speed bonuses your class can get (and any class gets quite a bit through potions)

 

Fair enough!

[peddroelm]

here's a quick attack speed measuring test using my patented break point test method 

 

Monk - 2 weapon style - dual fist  - 19 DEX - for attack speed (damage inflicted irrelevant for this thread - but the delays before attacks "measure" attack speed ).. 

 

+0 ms |Health Damage 11.332977

+1018 ms |Health Damage 19.631348

+916 ms |Health Damage 11.370148

+1039 ms |Health Damage 10.968414

+1005 ms |Health Damage 4.430481

+1033 ms |Health Damage 7.485748

+1021 ms |Health Damage 19.314636

+1004 ms |Health Damage 6.898499

+966 ms |Health Damage 9.861145

+994 ms |Health Damage 11.060150

+1064 ms |Health Damage 10.717163

+1005 ms |Health Damage 9.395050

+943 ms |Health Damage 6.106934

+971 ms |Health Damage 2.704590

+924 ms |Health Damage 17.065369

+961 ms |Health Damage 9.399628

+935 ms |Health Damage 9.286469

+1003 ms |Health Damage 18.605988

+914 ms |Health Damage 16.781799

+1000 ms |Health Damage 17.733490

 

 

Edited April 24, 2015 by peddroelm

[Matt516]

Wait, so... it's inconsistent. Why? That makes no kind of sense. It should be the exact same delay every time, or at the very worst a repeating pattern of two (if there were some sort of reset delay after the offhand hit or something). How did you measure your times?

[peddroelm]

Wait, so... it's inconsistent. Why? That makes no kind of sense. It should be the exact same delay every time, or at the very worst a repeating pattern of two (if there were some sort of reset delay after the offhand hit or something). How did you measure your times?

 

Results are normal but - explaining the cause is a extremely complicated ...(deep into how windows operating system works ..)

 

Chief among things is that at any given time pillars of eternity isn't the only process running  ..

"In the case of a computer with a single CPU, only one task is said to be running at any point in time, meaning that the CPU is actively executing instructions for that task. Multitasking solves the problem by scheduling which task may be the one running at any given time, and when another waiting task gets a turn. The act of reassigning a CPU from one task to another one is called a context switch. When context switches occur frequently enough, the illusion of parallelism is achieved."

 

 My script running each time the target's health changes (takes damage) - takes some processor cycles to do its thing ( .., make windows API function to get current time, display time difference , damage received, healing target back to full to be ready for next beak ..) ..My game doesn't run at 30 fps .. I have no idea what mechanisms the game uses to synchronize his timings with "real time" (I don't make 3d games) ..

 

Given all that, I don't think a few milliseconds are "huge variance" ..

 

//////////

 

Tl_DR - attach 3rd party debbuger to pillar or eternity process.. Set hardware write breakpoint on the memory address holding the float variable representing test-subject's health/hit points.. 

 

Execute a script each time the breakpoint is hit (test subject health changes - gets damaged or healed) (automatically) .. Type to log window damage amount and time difference from last breakpoint activation.. This way you can "catch" effects of multiple DOTs/HOTs running in parallel, damage from each individual pellet of multishot weapons(blunderbuss), etc .. Each and every DOT tick (timing and precise damage amount)!

 

Check the separate breakpoint testing thread for examples ..

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/

Edited April 24, 2015 by peddroelm

[MoxyWoo]

Could someone test scroll use with the Ranger Swift Aim Modal up?  I get this weird feeling it works since Vicious Aim was doing so for the accuracy bonus but I can't tell since my computer is pretty laggy in most cases.

[iKrivetko]

Is there any info about how retaliation works?

Does it use your main hand weapon or something of its own?

The reason why I am asking is that I have a retal barb with Tidefall as his main weapon and I have noticed that normal attacks cause slash damage, whereas retaliation is piercing.

Any insight on that matter?

[MoxyWoo]

Retail is its own weapon with a 10-15 dmg range if I recall.  Autohits.

[Daemonjax]

Wait, so... it's inconsistent. Why? That makes no kind of sense. It should be the exact same delay every time, or at the very worst a repeating pattern of two (if there were some sort of reset delay after the offhand hit or something). How did you measure your times?

 

A lot of the variance is caused by different attack animations.  Each melee weapon has two different possible animations, chosen randomly per swing.

[b0rsuk]

How fast are scepters compared to wands and rods ? As fast a wands ? Between wands and rods ? Faster than wands ?

[Kaigen42]

How fast are scepters compared to wands and rods ? As fast a wands ? Between wands and rods ? Faster than wands ?

According to the Google spreadsheet that's buried somewhere in this thread, Scepters and Wands have identical speed: 30 frames of attack animation, 54 frames of recovery. The Rod has a 46 frame attack animation with 80 frames of recovery. So Rods are about 50% slower than than Scepters/Wands. Or to put it another way: With identical Dexterity and Recovery factors, you can get three Wand/Scepter attacks for every two Rod attacks.

[b0rsuk]

I've found an old infographic by Josh Sawyer:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/

 

It would appear that sword&board has more recovery time than a 2-handed weapon. Is a single 1-handed weapon WITHOUT shield as fast as sword&board ? Meaning a single 1-handed weapon is slower than a 2-handed weapon ?

 

Also, looking at the spreadsheet screenshot a few pages ago it seems that Hunting Bow, whose speed is listed as "fast", is exactly as fast as an... average speed weapon.

 

I guess the infographic is out of date, the new spreedsheet suggests 1-handed average weapon and a 2-handed weapon are just as fast.

[Ferrante]

I've found an old infographic by Josh Sawyer:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/

 

It would appear that sword&board has more recovery time than a 2-handed weapon. Is a single 1-handed weapon WITHOUT shield as fast as sword&board ? Meaning a single 1-handed weapon is slower than a 2-handed weapon ?

 

Also, looking at the spreadsheet screenshot a few pages ago it seems that Hunting Bow, whose speed is listed as "fast", is exactly as fast as an... average speed weapon.

 

I guess the infographic is out of date, the new spreedsheet suggests 1-handed average weapon and a 2-handed weapon are just as fast.

 

I think what that means is that the weapon speed have the same scale for 2 handed or 1 handed but 2 handed usually are slow or very slow. A 2 handed with "fast" (I have not found any) would be as fast as a dagger. That's fine because you can make your maths easier and the balance is in the weapon speed. 

[taek]

BTW, what's the reason for the Estoc having a DR reduction of 8 on the Pillars Weapon spreadsheet instead of 5?

[Matt516]

BTW, what's the reason for the Estoc having a DR reduction of 8 on the Pillars Weapon spreadsheet instead of 5?

 

Probably an error in the spreadsheet.

[MoxyWoo]

Little confused.. what is the solid crossbow line on the sheet?

[Fëanor]

What's changed post-2.0?

[Nobear]

Little confused.. what is the solid crossbow line on the sheet?

 

IDK but it looks good. Shoot, I've been using a liquid crossbow this whole time. That's why this game is so hard!

[Elric Galad]

Speed mod on unique weapons now works ^^

[LightLance]

There are some inaccuracies in current  weapon spreadsheet version:

1. Dual weapons (flail, sabre, warhammer)  have accuracy bonus 12%. Shoud be no bonus.

2. Flail has attack and recovery frames as average speed weapon though it is fast speed weapon.

Also it would be helpful to add weapons (in dual weild mode) with different bonus combination, for example, stiletto(3drb) + dagger(5 acc), stiletto(3drb) + flail(30% graze to hit), spear(5acc) + mace (3drb) e.t.c

[Ichthyic]

anyone know offhand if the weapon change recovery from the Coil of Resourcefulness stacks with the quick switch talent?  if so, that should theoretically make weapons switching have zero delay.

....tried it... seems to do just that.  my time progression bar no longer jumps up at all when I switch weapons.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Ichthyic