Action speed vs attack speed and DEX - How does it all work?

[IndiraLightfoot]

What the thread title says, basically.

 

I know that DEX is useful for characters using ranged weapons, but has it any bearing on those with melee weapons?

 

If action speed is something that speeds up your actions in combat that would potentially more time for damaging baddies, and attack speed would certainly translate into more dps.

 

[wanderon]

I always assumed it determined all combat based actions - (I do however know how to spell ass-u-me) 

[Sensuki]

The distinction is probably a UI issue, but Dexterity gives a special type of bonus from all other attack speed bonuses

 

Actions in Pillars of Eternity have an animation and most of them have recovery time.

 

Dexterity increases animation speed as well as action speed

 

Animation speed is 30 FPS

For instance if you have a Greatsword, which has a 30 frame animation (1s), and a 60 frame recovery (30 base recovery, 30 from Two Handed recovery penalty), then 20 Dexterity (+30% Action Speed) will make your attack have a 21 frame animation and a 51 frame recovery time. 

The reason it's 51 frames is because Dexterity only alters the base recovery time.

Bonuses to recovery time are additive multipliers.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Sensuki

[morhilane]

Is there things Dexterity doesn't speed up?

[Sensuki]

Maybe - it's possible that it doesn't work on potions and stuff like that, I dunno. Technically it should work on everything else.

[Luckmann]

Dexterity doesn't affect reload speed for firearms. Or did I misunderstand something? I remember it being said somewhere.

[Sensuki]

No, just recovery time IIRC. Previously there was no recovery time for firearm type weapons, but I think they added it in so you couldn't just spam four guns off at once (which you can actually do if you glitch the weapon switching atm, filed a bug report about it).

Edited March 17, 2015 by Sensuki

[Veevoir]

So... it does affect reload? I tried my own testing between dex 10 and 20 with blunderbuss and in 2 shots (with penetrating shot) + reload I got about 4s difference.
Of course the experiment wasn't that scientific, but I'd think such a small difference would mean that reload is not affected by dex.

[Sensuki]

Yeah looks like it does, holy cow at the difference when you use an Arquebus - I'll record it

[Sensuki]

Edited March 17, 2015 by Sensuki

[roguelike]

What.  Everything I ever knew was a lie.

[Luckmann]

Yeah looks like it does, holy cow at the difference when you use an Arquebus - I'll record it

Well that clears that up. Dex + Firearms = Insanity. That's a huge difference.

[tdphys]

4 shots to 3 is %33 percent increase in total (not base) damage.  In POE forum terms...  that's not additive chum; all of your other damage mods benefit from faster attacking   Dex is the new Per !!!! better max it everybody!!!

[Sensuki]

I wonder if the reload speed is supposed to be that quick, because that is a lot ... but then again it is an animation, and animations are supposed to be 30% quicker. Seems like you get triple the benefit for firearms lol!

Edited March 17, 2015 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

Just for laughs

 

[Luckmann]

4 shots to 3 is %33 percent increase in total (not base) damage.  In POE forum terms...  that's not additive chum; all of your other damage mods benefit from faster attacking   Dex is the new Per !!!! better max it everybody!!!

At least for firearms.

 

I wonder if the reload speed is supposed to be that quick, because that is a lot ... but then again it is an animation, and animations are supposed to be 30% quicker. Seems like you get triple the benefit for firearms lol!

I would be surprised if Sawyer doesn't whip out the nerfbat as soon as he sees this. The problem as I see it is that it could be hard to engineer a solution; if it doesn't affect reload/animations for firearms, firearms will suck with Dexterity, but if it does, well, then this.

 

And we know by experience that Sawyer prefers to nerf or limit mechanics rather than fixing or balancing them towards others, so I wouldn't get my hopes up that this is still there by release.

 

Just for laughs

 

BOOM! HEADSHOT!

 

That's ****ing hilarious.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Luckmann

[Veevoir]

4 shots to 3 is %33 percent increase in total (not base) damage.  In POE forum terms...  that's not additive chum; all of your other damage mods benefit from faster attacking   Dex is the new Per !!!! better max it everybody!!!

In the video it is more 5/4 in the end (the last shot that is more or less in synch). So it is more of a 20-25% increase.. surprisingly almost in line with what Dex tooltip says. And in line with my tests with blunderbuss. Should have watched reload animation more closely

 

It is still a lot, but what really benefits from dex is two weapons style. I built a 2xmace rogue and with two weapon style and 20 dex it was insanely fast.  

 

 

 

Just for laughs

 

That's an easy target to gib. Try the guy on the north side onf the group, he has more deflection, suprisingly.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Veevoir

[Sensuki]

That video was just to show stealth+backstab for someone at the codex, I didn't need to show it against a good target. Just thought I'd repost here because it was funny.

 

And we know by experience that Sawyer prefers to nerf or limit mechanics rather than fixing or balancing them towards others, so I wouldn't get my hopes up that this is still there by release.

Mmmm, can't say I'm much of a fan of the Sid Meier style of balancing (doubling/halving etc) that he uses. Goes a bit overboard sometimes - e.g., Thrice She Was Wronged, which is now a woeful ability.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Sensuki

[Azmodiuz]

I think dexterity is fine, as it is shown here on this thread. It for once does what its supposed to do. If you throw everything into min/max damage thats not bad, its just one possible way to make a character. Its not how I will play my characters, but its one way to play them no matter what.

The question is, does this affect chanting now ?

[Answermancer]

I wonder if the reload speed is supposed to be that quick, because that is a lot ... but then again it is an animation, and animations are supposed to be 30% quicker. Seems like you get triple the benefit for firearms lol!

 

That's not really true though (triple the benefit), you just get a consistent benefit. 30% quicker should mean 30% quicker, regardless if your action has a recovery, a reload, a cigarette break, or whatever else. If you have a 30% bonus from Dex everything you do should happen 30% more often.

 

If it only affects the 'base recovery' while all weapons get a penalty to it anyway (unless you dual wield) that adds inconsistency again so I wish it didn't do that. Unnecessary inconsistency just makes things confusing.

 

And yeah, of course it's powerful, being able to do more things in the same amount of time is always more powerful. I remember half a year ago when everyone was rolling out what they thought the attributes should do I was arguing against something adding action speed because I thought it would be hard to not make completely overpowered. Of course as you and others have pointed out it does mean you attack DR more often so that does rein it in a bit for fast, small weapons.

 

Anyway, now that action speed is on an attribute I am glad that it is, my favorite character archetypes are always the quick and nimble types.

[Bazy]

I don't know what everyone is talking about. It was 1 Extra attack in 40 seconds of combat. That hardly seems OP. Most fights are over before then. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Bazy