Petition : Make Looting functions optional.

[Gairnulf]

 

Problem here is, it's not optional.

The argument was that stash mechanic combined with area loot mechanic is bad, not area loot mechanic itself being bad.

 

"The outcome" being what?

Loot checking and selection.

 

If you wouldn't vacuum every item left in every loot container, and you only use area loot to check a few enemies' loot at once, then it would save you time and clicks, obviously. You would still run into the problems I described above.

 

 

 

Problem here is, it's not optional.

The argument was that stash mechanic combined with area loot mechanic is bad, not area loot mechanic itself being bad.

 

 

Oh my bad. then I agree with you, unless the stash is enabled everywhere, which is an option, I don't see how area looting is much a problem combined with it.

When you decide to enable the stash access everywhere though, it indeed leads to shoving everything in it without paying attention, 'cause you can, which fits more farming oriented games that how IE games handled loot and rewards in general. But that's an optional mechanic.

 

Still people wouldn't be that upset if area looting was optional which is understandable, and I don't see any reason not to patch the game after release, since they probably don't have time right now, to make it so.

 

My argument is that both are bad and they are even worse when put together.

 

Also, as I already said - putting items in the stash is enabled everywhere. What's not enabled everywhere is taking items out of it.

[Gairnulf]

 

 

Indeed. Zack Fair is correct. Loot area itself is fine as a mechanic.

 

By the way, I heard you can disable remote stash in options?

You disable taking things from it but not putting things in it.

 

For the love of God, Using stash (infinity inventory) already means that you don't have think about sorting inventory, or deciding which loot you pick up and which ones don't.

Yes, and once I have infinite inventory and the ability to roleplay a vacuum cleaner after each battle, this "contributes to dumbing down the game" as I already described. You can do one more circle around this statement if it will help you understand it.

 

 

Areal loot or individual loot won't change a bit about it.

I described how it does change more than a bit.

 

If you have a stash, you will still click on every cropse, and you will pick up every loot to sell later.

Less likely, because the effort needed to do so would be greater without area loot.

 

Area looting will just mean that you don't have to click on everything one by one.

See, you actually get what I mean. That's one reason I don't want area loot - it makes the vacuum cleaner behavior easier. The other reason is more subjective, hence I'm not putting it forward so much - I like checking out containers. When a few containers get grouped together this takes away something I like to do. Checking containers is part of the game. If someone finds it tedious I think they shoud not play the game instead of coming up with a "you win" button.

 

If you want to blame something, blame infinite inventory, but don't say that area loot makes you retarded, because IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

You are getting too worked up.

 

So you are going to vacuum cleaner mode because of area looting. Now who's fault is that? Nobody is focing you to go OCD. And I have a feeling that you would still pickup everything even if you had to click on every corpse individually. Area loot at least makes this more comfortable. And if you don't want to pick up evertything, you will simply don't do it area loot or no.

 

Yes, I would still check every container, probably, depending on what I expect to find. Whether or not I'll pick everything up depends on whether or not I feel like it. It doesn't depend on inventory space because of infinite inventory.

 

Area loot at least makes this more comfortable.

No, area loot doesn't make the process more comfortable for reasons I described above. Edited March 14, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Zack Fair]

Some additional confusion and uncertainty come from the fact that you can't visually tell what are 3 meters in-game. Questions and wondering begin: "Now that I clicked this loot container, how many enemies' items does it contain actually? Should I go and click the farthest container in the cluster as well? Or is that one close enough to be grouped under the 3 meters rule... Maybe I should click it just to be safe I'm not missing something... But wait, it shows some items I saw previously and also some others but they are identical to the items I saw when I clicked the container on the other side of the cluster of containers... So what belongs to whom now? As for those two far-away containers I'll probably have to click individually, the 3m rule doesn't apply to them."

 

I don't know who needs that and I can't imagine anything good coming out of this mechanic.

You are making up problems that do not exist. Who cares which item belongs to which corpse? You don't pick up loot based on their previous owner. You pick it up based on their usefulness.

[Leferd]

 

I hope they hardcode it so that you can't even mod it out, just as a punishment for the utter ridiculousness of this reaction to area loot.

This tells us some things about yourself actually.

 

It's a good joke actually.

[Gairnulf]

 

 

I hope they hardcode it so that you can't even mod it out, just as a punishment for the utter ridiculousness of this reaction to area loot.

This tells us some things about yourself actually.

 

 

It's a good joke actually.

 

I didn't think it was said as a joke, based on previous things I had read by him.

 

 

Some additional confusion and uncertainty come from the fact that you can't visually tell what are 3 meters in-game. Questions and wondering begin: "Now that I clicked this loot container, how many enemies' items does it contain actually? Should I go and click the farthest container in the cluster as well? Or is that one close enough to be grouped under the 3 meters rule... Maybe I should click it just to be safe I'm not missing something... But wait, it shows some items I saw previously and also some others but they are identical to the items I saw when I clicked the container on the other side of the cluster of containers... So what belongs to whom now? As for those two far-away containers I'll probably have to click individually, the 3m rule doesn't apply to them."

 

I don't know who needs that and I can't imagine anything good coming out of this mechanic.

You are making up problems that do not exist.

 

Don't they? We'll see, but I think they do.

 

Who cares which item belongs to which corpse? You don't pick up loot based on their previous owner. You pick it up based on their usefulness.

As I have described, you do need to know which item is in which container if you want to know whether you've checked every container or not (duh). Edited March 14, 2015 by Gairnulf

[ManifestedISO]

 

Its bad, but no one ever expected great things from wasteland 2 to begin with.

 

Citation needed.

[teknoman2]

to tell the truth i prefer the ME looting system. automatically get all items from an enemy the moment he dies without having to go around searching corpses

seriously, they add a system that spares you the chore of pixelhunting for loot and you feel like it makes the game worse?

when some people ask for certain features, i wish the developers could link the game to the forum accounts and make the feature optional, to see how many would actually keep it on for the entire game or would just toggle it off halfway through because it becomes bothersome

[Ohioastro]

If you want a pure nostalgia trip, including all design mistakes involved, BG still exists. Excuses aside, this comes across as a demand to mimic every aspect, no matter how trivial or misconceived, in a new game.

 

Optimal game play should not require tedious mechanical tasks, and lots of mouse clicks do not make a task immersive or challenging.

[Gairnulf]

when some people ask for certain features

I wasn't aware of anyone asking for this feature. One of the things I find amusing about it is how nobody seems to have had any trouble with having to check every loot container seconds until Obsidian announced they would put area loot in as a feature. Then they do that and suddenly we learn that this has been a burden for some people.

[Sonntam]

 

when some people ask for certain features

I wasn't aware of anyone asking for this feature. One of the things I find amusing about it is how nobody seems to have had any trouble with having to check every loot container seconds until Obsidian announced they would put area loot in as a feature. Then they do that and suddenly we learn that this has been a burden for some people.

 

Hey, I've always been complaining about that! (Just not on forums... I don't think people need any more complaining here.)

 

Do I now get a cookie? 

[Gairnulf]

 

 

when some people ask for certain features

I wasn't aware of anyone asking for this feature. One of the things I find amusing about it is how nobody seems to have had any trouble with having to check every loot container seconds until Obsidian announced they would put area loot in as a feature. Then they do that and suddenly we learn that this has been a burden for some people.

 

 

Hey, I've always been complaining about that! (Just not on forums... I don't think people need any more complaining here.)

 

Do I now get a cookie?

 

Not from me. I'll be interested to know how you'll like it in the game.

[dorkboy]

I like pixel hunting. I know I'm not supposed to like that, but I do. It gives me a reason to give the game environment more than just a brief glance. If all the lootable/interactive/descriptions/objects are pointed out to me with various, not-so-subtle markers, then I have no reason to keep examining the area. It ceases to hold my attention, and becomes uninteresting. I don't want to play games in which I find the environments to be uninteresting (no matter how gorgeous they may initially be).

 

It's not a question of convenience vs chores (which would be a very easy choice), IMO, it a question of convenience vs freedom (both of which are good things, making the choice much more difficult). So where is that balance struck? 

 

The answer, in this case, is: 3 meters away from the initial corpse.

[teknoman2]

 

when some people ask for certain features

I wasn't aware of anyone asking for this feature. One of the things I find amusing about it is how nobody seems to have had any trouble with having to check every loot container seconds until Obsidian announced they would put area loot in as a feature. Then they do that and suddenly we learn that this has been a burden for some people.

 

if you go to the technical section there was a topic about implementing area loot for a long time.

area loot is better than single corpse loot, mostly because it spares you the trouble of pixel hunting for individual enemy bodies (that may be hidden behind something and you cant see them)

what bothers me is when the developers decide to use something superior and others go "NO BECAUSE MUH NOSTALGIA" (and that behavior annoys me even more when people think that a problem was actualy a feature and dont want it changed).

what also bothers me, is when people start asking for features without thinking of the implications because "MUH IMMERSION". features that may look cool the first time you see them, may look nice and give a realistic vibe the second and third time, but will inevitably become a bother that everyone wishes was not there (even those who demanded them)

[Zack Fair]

It gives me a reason to give the game environment more than just a brief glance.

If the only reason for taking a good look of the enviroment is pixel hunting, then the background art sucks. Thankfully in PoE it looks great, so I hope you will take a good look at it even without pixelhuntin.

[Voss]

Plus the 'highlight objects/containers' hotkey does more to make pixelhunting unnecessary than area loot possibly can.  

[dorkboy]

 

It gives me a reason to give the game environment more than just a brief glance.

If the only reason for taking a good look of the enviroment is pixel hunting, then the background art sucks. Thankfully in PoE it looks great, so I hope you will take a good look at it even without pixelhuntin.

 

You haven't taken my meaning. I specifically mentioned this being regardless of how beautiful the environments may initially be. 

---

@Voss

Well, with this feature it seems to me that the devs are going to be less likely to make loot markers/glows optional. That is the downside, IMO.

Edited March 14, 2015 by dorkboy

[Zack Fair]

I know pen and paper RPGs and cRPGs are 2 different beasts, but look at this way. When you play PnP games, and you killed a group of enemies, you don't say to the GM that I go to the first corpse and check its loot. Then I go to the 2nd, then to the third etc. No, you say: "our party checks if there is anything valuable on the corpses".

[Lephys]

... Why oh why do people keep getting the word "area" confused with the word "auto"? I mean, I know they both start with "a", and they're both 4-letter words, but...

 

"Area" looting merely comments on where you loot. It does not suggest, infer, or imply that your choice of what to loot will suddenly be gone.

 

The only legitimate concern I've seen for area-looting, as it is in PoE right now, is the "I don't know who had which items" one. And it's a pretty minor one, but still legitimate. There isn't really any reason NOT to know who the items came from. You can access 3 close-together corpses from the same place without mashing all their loot into the same ambiguous "here's what you can take" window.

[Cantousent]

Yeah, I think it's a fairly minor point. I guess there are two reasons you'd want to know exactly who dropped what. First of all, for the stories sake, even though in PnP you go over the corpses, the DM will usually tell you which cool or extraordinary items from which of your foes. I mean, ten crappy short swords and the moldy heal of six week old bread? Does it matter which kobold had what? The other reason is that, for those spectacular (or craptacular as the case may be) items, you want to know who dropped it because you're planning on playing again and want to know who has what. Of course, you're still going to fight the same group, so I guess that still doesn't have a huge practical impact. Still, I think in principle it's probably better to know which foe dropped which rusty dagger. Not important enough to me to write my congressman or create a petition, but at least I can dig the reasoning.

[Sonntam]

 

 

 

when some people ask for certain features

I wasn't aware of anyone asking for this feature. One of the things I find amusing about it is how nobody seems to have had any trouble with having to check every loot container seconds until Obsidian announced they would put area loot in as a feature. Then they do that and suddenly we learn that this has been a burden for some people.

 

 

Hey, I've always been complaining about that! (Just not on forums... I don't think people need any more complaining here.)

 

Do I now get a cookie?

 

Not from me. I'll be interested to know how you'll like it in the game.

 

I like area looting in Pillars of Eternity. Now I get to spend not 6 seconds looting, but perhaps 2. That's 4 seconds saved. 4 seconds that go to adventuring. That sounds awesome to me. 

[Valsuelm]

I know pen and paper RPGs and cRPGs are 2 different beasts, but look at this way. When you play PnP games, and you killed a group of enemies, you don't say to the GM that I go to the first corpse and check its loot. Then I go to the 2nd, then to the third etc. No, you say: "our party checks if there is anything valuable on the corpses".

 

It certainly mattered who you played with as well as the encounter.

 

The better GMs I've played with rarely just said 'here you go' after an encounter was over. With the better GMs I've played with encounters weren't always over when players thought they were.

 

Regardless, the complaints are valid. This thread is like so many others on so many gaming boards, in part valid complaint, in part a bunch of people trying to invalidate the complaint. If you don't see the problem, that's cool. Others do. None of them are saying you should be stuck with their preference. What is being asked for is an option so they don't have to be stuck with yours.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure most here who aren't happy about this are not considering it in a vacuum. A number of fundamental things have been done that are 'new school' as opposed to the 'old school' that the kickstarter said we'd have. If you like them, good for you. Some of us are not happy with some of the departures from what made the IE games what they were. In most cases, taken by themselves they aren't that big a deal, but taken together they are (the biggest exception I know of (having not played the beta) is the lack of ammo for projectiles). The more changes from the IE engine the more the game is less like an IE game. While no doubt some backers don't care, or would even prefer this, it's pretty safe to say that a majority of those backers backed the game because they wanted that IE experience again.

 

Will a petition change anything? I'd wager a lot no. Petitions almost never amount to anything. Moreover, the vast majority of backers are completely unaware it exists, and even if everyone did, most likely wouldn't be inclined to bother to partake in it, no matter what their position on the matter (reference the backer polls to see the low turnout relative to the number of backers out there). And of course Obsidian is under no obligation to even bother to read a petition, let alone implement what it wants.

[Gairnulf]

Here's what I expect area looting to turn into and that's why I'm skeptical towards it.

 

You have four loot containers and you have to guess and try to click such a loot container as to select all or most of them, but you don't know in advance if this is possible.

 

The end result being that you still click on every container, only you are not really sure if what you're seeing isn't something you just saw when you were clicking at the last container, because the loot interface won't just show you the container you clicked but also the other container:

 

 

So in a situation with four loot containers you are blind guessing which one you should click first and which other containers will its 3m radius include.

 

That's what I call confusing and that's the main reason I don't like the idea. It's got nothing to do with nostalgia and much to do with common sense.

 

In this example you would need at least two clicks to check all containers, and that is if you were able to tell which containers you are seeing with each click. In reality most people would click all containers anyway, just to be sure they aren't missing anything.

[Azmodiuz]

I'm not being facetious, and I'm certainly trying not to be dismissive, but I simply don't understand the depth of feeling I've seen on this.  Not just from you, Azmod.  From what I've seen, it's not a majority opinion, but certainly a vocal minority who hates the area looting.  I can understand not liking it, but to make a petition over it?

 

The fact is, last time I played the beta, I didn't like how it looked altogether.  The stash was weird.  I hated that I had to be at an in or camping to switch stuff around.  The way individual characters didn't really come up with an inventory screen was offputing.  ...But it just seemed so minor.  ...And this deal with the area looting seems truly trivial on the downside.  It's a huge convenience for folks who want it, but doesn't seem to detract much for folks who would rather walk over to a few more corpses to loot them.

 

I agree that it would have been interesting to see how it worked beforehand, though.  I have a gut feeling that a lot of people are upset at prospective implementation who might not actually mind how it ends up working in the game.

 

 

Quite true, we might actually like how it is implemented, but we will not get to see it until going live. It was not put into the beta. This game is supposed to be a traditional game, like the older ones it emulates in so many ways. I like the idea of looting a few things at once, that are in an area, this prevents things from overlapping and being unable to loo them or click on them, and I like how it was in wasteland 2 to a very small degree, however, I do find it detracted from loot value and prestige and awe abit, and made it very mediocre, like the only thing we get that we cared about was junk and ammo. Guess xp too. might as well go grinding away in a game of diablo, where the loot means more. 

 

But this is what bothers me, is the trend to improve upon things small bits by small bits that ..well...made the entire genre disappear to begin with. Skyrim is ultimately complete improvement on the older RPG genre in every way, yet, its just not the same. You start making things too modern and changing them, and you are losing what made them feel special. Looting was very important, so was thieving. Taking them both out.. what gives??? This is a HUGE part of customization, it takes us time, and we carefully  weigh and consider what we do and such.

[teknoman2]

 

 

 

 

when some people ask for certain features

I wasn't aware of anyone asking for this feature. One of the things I find amusing about it is how nobody seems to have had any trouble with having to check every loot container seconds until Obsidian announced they would put area loot in as a feature. Then they do that and suddenly we learn that this has been a burden for some people.

 

 

Hey, I've always been complaining about that! (Just not on forums... I don't think people need any more complaining here.)

 

Do I now get a cookie?

 

Not from me. I'll be interested to know how you'll like it in the game.

 

I like area looting in Pillars of Eternity. Now I get to spend not 6 seconds looting, but perhaps 2. That's 4 seconds saved. 4 seconds that go to adventuring. That sounds awesome to me. 

 

dont forget the mouse clicks. to loot 4 bodies one by one, you need a minimum of 8 mouse clicks. with area loot you can do it in 2. and if the bodies were 10? you would save yourself 18 clicks and the time it takes to move from one to the other. well, since the inventory is practically unlimited, getting all loot automatically would be even better

what can i say? for me immersion comes from the story, characters and overall atmosphere of the game, not by having (or not) certain mechanics (especially if they are needlesly repetitive... "ritual without purpose is wasted effort" as the old witch said in PST)

also i find the idea that area looting detracts from the looting proccess it's value absurd. this  game follows in BG and IWD footsteps (not diablo's) and all in all 90% of the loot from bodies was junk in these games. unlike diablo, there was no RNG to give you hope that the random imp you just killed will drop a powerful unique weapon nor did anyone expected it to happen. looting was not a lottery in BG, dead enemies had the loot you would expect like some gold, a weapon, ammo, armor or potions and the same goes for WL2 and PoE now. 

Edited March 14, 2015 by teknoman2

[Azmodiuz]

Maybe not everyone cares. But some of us do, and are concerned about spiralling downward trends in the genre of isometric rpg gaming.