Pillars of Eternity 2 and crowdfunding on Kickstarter?

[Rafkos]

First of all, it's my second post on this forum, so I wanted to say hello to everyone here I've been following this forum for a long time, I'm also a big fan of all IE games.
As you guys know, Obsidian announced that - along with expansions to PoE1 - they are going to work on PoE2.
http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/289534/Obsidian+has+started+thinking+about+%22Eternity+2%22/
I'm a bit sceptical about this, we haven't seen the final product yet, I hope it will be great ofc, but for me it's a bit too early to think about a sequel. But's it is not a main reason I'm writing this thread. The reason is what Feargus Urquhart said in one of his interviews:
 

 

 

Urquhart also said they'll likely go the Kickstarter route with this one as well, although it has yet to be decided.

I think it's not going to do well for a reputation of Obsidian, crowdfounding is okay, but not after such a big success with PoE1. I am convinced that this title is going to be sold well and there's no need of funding it on Kickstarter again. They should work on PoE2 with money they've already earned and then think about a possibility to ask people for help after having done some main contents of the game, not start from scratch. It simply doesn't look well to ask people for money again and again... even if they sold only 100,000 copies of PoE after the release they'll have 4,9mln euros ~ $5,4mln from it, that's a lot. I may be wrong, I don't know much about running a game studio, and I'm not familiar with costs coming out of it. It's just my opinion. Are you guys going to support them again or say "hey, you have the money, it's not fair". Let me know what's your opinion.
Cheers

sorry if there's a similar thread somewhere but I haven't seen it.

[Mazisky]

Man, i don't care if KS or not, expecially if the game is good and i pay the same price of a non KS product.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Mazisky

[Sonntam]

First of all, it's my second post on this forum, so I wanted to say hello to everyone here I've been following this forum for a long time, I'm also a big fan of all IE games.

As you guys know, Obsidian announced that - along with expansions to PoE1 - they are going to work on PoE2.

http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/289534/Obsidian+has+started+thinking+about+%22Eternity+2%22/

I'm a bit sceptical about this, we haven't seen the final product yet, I hope it will be great ofc, but for me it's a bit too early to think about a sequel. But's it is not a main reason I'm writing this thread. The reason is what Feargus Urquhart said in one of his interviews:

 

 

 

Urquhart also said they'll likely go the Kickstarter route with this one as well, although it has yet to be decided.

I think it's not going to do well for a reputation of Obsidian, crowdfounding is okay, but not after such a big success with PoE1. I am convinced that this title is going to be sold well and there's no need of funding it on Kickstarter again. They should work on PoE2 with money they've already earned and then think about a possibility to ask people for help after having done some main contents of the game, not start from scratch. It simply doesn't look well to ask people for money again and again... even if they sold only 100,000 copies of PoE after the release they'll have 4,9mln euros ~ $5,4mln from it, that's a lot. I may be wrong, I don't know much about running a game studio, and I'm not familiar with costs coming out of it. It's just my opinion. Are you guys going to support them again or say "hey, you have the money, it's not fair". Let me know what's your opinion.

Cheers

 

sorry if there's a similar thread somewhere but I haven't seen it.

 

A bit too early to talk about whether PoE is a success or not. We would have to see the launch sales first (and so would Obsidian).

 

Plus, I'm not so sure Obsidian will make 4 millions dollars in sales. And anything below that would mean that Pillars of Eternity 2 would get less funding than the first game. Thus: shorter game, less content, less polish. 

 

I'm positive that fans would be more than happy to give Obsidian more money for the sequel. I mean, look at Shadowrun: Hong Kong. Harebrained Schemes had good sales from previous titles and used the money to fun a new game, but without additional funding some additional content would not be possible (revamped Matrix, better magic system, etc.).  And the fans were glad to throw money at the Kickstarter, even though they knew the game would be made with or without the Kickstarter.

[Kjaamor]

I wouldn't say that it would necessarily look bad for Obsidian, but I do share the sentiment that kickstarting the sequel feels a little greedy. My understanding of the initial kickstarted game was that it would provide Obsidian with their own IP and prepared engine for sequels.

 

Of course, people are free to spend their money how they wish, and if someone wants to pay large sums to a kickstarter that's their perogative/problem. Personally, for all I'd been searching for a game like PoE for years, I still find it mind-blowing that some individuals paid over a thousand dollars for an IE retrofest.

 

Practically speaking, I have two concerns for a kickstarted sequel:

 

1. The initial game does not do nearly as well as anticipated

2. Obsidian count on similar sums of money from the sequel kickstarter as they did for the original, and the actual raised money falls way short of that mark.

 

For all the success of Wasteland 2, Shadowrun and Grimrock, I get the feeling that the present wave of retro rpg successes is likely to be a wave that crashes in the not-too-distant future. As someone who spent the last ten years regularly searching for isometric party-based single player rpgs, having played Wasteland 2 and the recent Shadowrun, these days I feel that either the prescription on my rose-tinted glasses was out, or else that making a retro-style game inspired by good games doesn't necessarily make the game any good.

[Zwiebelchen]

If PoE is a success and up to our expectations, I'm not against the idea at all. Imho, possible revenue from direct sales to non-backers should benefit addons for PoE, not necessarily the next game in the pipeline.

 

I believe in the crowdfunding model. The direct interaction between backers and developers is imho what made PoE turn out so promising. Without this interaction, I'm perfectly sure we would get a much less polished game. Just remember all the valuable feedback threads on the BB and how they helped to improve the game. Just remember how scientifically and acribic some people pointed out major flaws in game design that got completely overlooked by the devs (I still wonder why they haven't hired Sensuki yet).

 

Without a crowdfunding campaign for the sequel, we would experience a disconnect between the devs and the community. And while this has advantages for the developers, it doesn't necessarily lead to a better game.

 

 

I'm btw aware of the irony that I'm saying this while not being a backer. I believe in the crowdfunding model, but I myself never invest into a product before it is finished, simply because I never know if my interest in the product is still the same when it's done. I'm just that kind of guy. But I respect everyone who does support developers via kickstarter and I see how it benefits everyone, including non-backers like me, in the long run.

[Kjaamor]

I believe in the crowdfunding model. The direct interaction between backers and developers is imho what made PoE turn out so promising.

 

I like the whole kickstarter thing because I think it showcases demand for things. I like the idea of the profit margins of recent kickstarted RPGs getting the interest of successful publishers, and publishers paying money to have these sort of games developed.

 

However the crowdfunding model in and of itself threatens to stifle creativity in exactly the same manner that the AAA conveyor belt has. It leads to by-the-numbers design in the same manner.

[GrinningReaper659]

 

I believe in the crowdfunding model. The direct interaction between backers and developers is imho what made PoE turn out so promising.

 

I like the whole kickstarter thing because I think it showcases demand for things. I like the idea of the profit margins of recent kickstarted RPGs getting the interest of successful publishers, and publishers paying money to have these sort of games developed.

 

However the crowdfunding model in and of itself threatens to stifle creativity in exactly the same manner that the AAA conveyor belt has. It leads to by-the-numbers design in the same manner.

 

 

No, crowdfunding leads to developers making games based on the preferences of a niche fan group, if the developer wants to make such a game. The AAA publishers demand appealing to the lowest common denominator in an attempt to broaden their appeal as much as possible to maximize profits. If they go to a publisher for PoE2 there is nothing to stop that publisher from demanding as many sacrifices to the original ideals as they believe that they can get away with without alienating the core fanbase immediately in order to maximize profits; then with the next game even more sacrifices are made and so on.

 

I'm happy to keep pledging through Kickstarter if it means that developers who are making the types of games I enjoy are able to continue doing so without being told to change their games by a big publisher. Hopefully they'll eventually have the money to publish their own games or to dictate terms with a publisher that keep the publisher from making unreasonable demands.

[Rafkos]

 

 

Hopefully they'll eventually have the money to publish their own games or to dictate terms with a publisher that keep the publisher from making unreasonable demands.

This. I hope they'll have their own money for PoE2 and maybe they'll use Kickstarter to polish it up only. Anyways, all we want (I guess) is to have a great and immersive game, if that means backing Obsidian on Kickstarter then I see no reason why they shouldn't do that.

[Kjaamor]

No, crowdfunding leads to developers making games based on the preferences of a niche fan group, if the developer wants to make such a game. The AAA publishers demand appealing to the lowest common denominator in an attempt to broaden their appeal as much as possible to maximize profits. If they go to a publisher for PoE2 there is nothing to stop that publisher from demanding as many sacrifices to the original ideals as they believe that they can get away with without alienating the core fanbase immediately in order to maximize profits; then with the next game even more sacrifices are made and so on.

 

I was just saying that the limits of "this is what we like, this is what we don't like" leads to similar lack of freedom as "this is what they like, this is what they don't like". Games are more than the sum of their parts, and when the niche fan group starts making demands of developers the same old ideas keep coming back without much consideration as to whether or not they benefit the game.

 

A classic example, for me, is the character appearance customisation of D:OS and PoE. The overwhelming noise from the community was that such customisation is something we love and that this is something that had to be present. So now we can choose between around seven different eye types for our character despite the fact that we're only going to see the top of their heads in-game.

 

As I say, I like crowdfunding for the way it can place a spotlight on the financial clout of niche fan groups, but I think that backers are just as demanding and, in their numbers, just as shortsighted as big publishing houses.

[Luckmann]

All of the best Kickstarters have been those that have already been able to fund the barebone necessities, usually with previous successes, and have opened the door to additional crowdfunding, the best examples being Shadowrun: Dragonfall (and no doubt Shadowrun: Hong Kong, although it's too early to say) and Divinity: Original Sin.

 

I think that they should absolutely Kickstart and crowdfund any potential Pillars of Eternity sequel(s) too. It is an amazing model, and high-quality studios of integrity can, as we have seen, be trusted to come through, even as the vision may change.

[Sonntam]

 

No, crowdfunding leads to developers making games based on the preferences of a niche fan group, if the developer wants to make such a game. The AAA publishers demand appealing to the lowest common denominator in an attempt to broaden their appeal as much as possible to maximize profits. If they go to a publisher for PoE2 there is nothing to stop that publisher from demanding as many sacrifices to the original ideals as they believe that they can get away with without alienating the core fanbase immediately in order to maximize profits; then with the next game even more sacrifices are made and so on.

 

I was just saying that the limits of "this is what we like, this is what we don't like" leads to similar lack of freedom as "this is what they like, this is what they don't like". Games are more than the sum of their parts, and when the niche fan group starts making demands of developers the same old ideas keep coming back without much consideration as to whether or not they benefit the game.

 

A classic example, for me, is the character appearance customisation of D:OS and PoE. The overwhelming noise from the community was that such customisation is something we love and that this is something that had to be present. So now we can choose between around seven different eye types for our character despite the fact that we're only going to see the top of their heads in-game.

 

As I say, I like crowdfunding for the way it can place a spotlight on the financial clout of niche fan groups, but I think that backers are just as demanding and, in their numbers, just as shortsighted as big publishing houses.

 

Backers don't have any actual power over the developers, though. Publishers can put legal restrictions on the devs, create a release date that devs must comply with, demand changes in story or additions of multiplayer.

 

Backers may complain, but they are not capable of forcing developers to do a single thing. Üerhaps they will not fund another project by this developer again... but if the product is good, then it would not matter what the original backers wanted. New fans will fund new games and if the new backers start making unreasonable demands, the developers still would be able to ignore them altogether if they wanted. 

 

Also, it's unreasonable to make games no one wants. If you are creative and a good developer, but can't find people who would be willing to back you, then why would one think that the game itself will sell better? 

[Namutree]

They should definitely do a kickstarter for PoE2. All I care about is getting a great game. I don't care if "Obsidian is being greedy". They're a freakin' business; they're supposed to be greedy.

[Sonntam]

If they want to do this then I think they should do this now before release of PoE. Otherwise I doubt they will get so many backers. You know fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

 

That makes no sense at all. Why Kickstart a successor to a game that is not even out yet? 

[Namutree]

 

If they want to do this then I think they should do this now before release of PoE. Otherwise I doubt they will get so many backers. You know fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

 

That makes no sense at all. Why Kickstart a successor to a game that is not even out yet? 

 

He doesn't think PoE will be very good.

[Valmy]

If they want to do this then I think they should do this now before release of PoE. Otherwise I doubt they will get so many backers. You know fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

 

I won't be fooled again?

[Valmy]

 

He doesn't think PoE will be very good.

 

There is a group of people on the internet who saw the beta and concluded it sucked.  Of course it was an actual beta and not one of those early access things so...

[mychal26]

I'm not sure how it doesn't look well using KS over and over. It is simply another platform for funding, it's not declaring bankruptcy, it's not taking an emergency loan from the government, it's not something to only be used by companies in need. It's simply another source of revenue, one that allows the developer to either fund a game from scratch or increase the content of a game in development. For those that back the game, we get it cheaper, and usually with a lot of neat additions. In addition, more games using KS can only be a good thing for the fledgling system, especially if they do well.

 

From the backer beta I would say that I would very likely back another KS and I hope they do go that route. Using funding from both KS and revenue generated from PoE and its expansion would probably the most ideal method (similar to D:OS).

[Kjaamor]

They should definitely do a kickstarter for PoE2. All I care about is getting a great game. I don't care if "Obsidian is being greedy". They're a freakin' business; they're supposed to be greedy.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that they are a business, but businesses spend an awful lot of money on branding themselves so that people associate them and their products with certain ideas. "Greed" is rarely a sought-after one.

 

On that level, Obsidian need to balance the books, and if they go into the sequel with a $2 million kickstarter budget in mind and the sequel only gets kickstarted for $300,000, then that is going to be problematic. I'm not saying that they're not already mindful of this, just that it is worth remembering.

 

PoE got the level of kickstarted funding it did because the BG fans thought it would be the new BG, the IWD fans thought it would be the new IWD, and the PS:T fans thought it would be the new PS:T. Of course, it isn't going to be any of those things, and a lot of people who were caught up in their own self-generated hype are likely to be disappointed with the game. That's not Obsidian's fault particularly, but it does mean that the sequel's kickstarter is unlikely to be as successful as the first. That is, unless PoE turns out to be better than all of them, and brings together old and new gamers, but I think that is hopelessly optimistic.

 

Personally, it makes very little difference to me, since I am part of the pre-order/beta crowd rather than a true backer, and am highly unlikely to back the sequel in any case. The only game I have properly backed from the off was The Mandate, just because that looked like a genuinely new and interesting concept, and I felt like it could have potentially been poorly funded. Again, if people want to throw large sums of money at successful developers that is their business.

[Ink Blot]

All of the best Kickstarters have been those that have already been able to fund the barebone necessities, usually with previous successes, and have opened the door to additional crowdfunding, the best examples being Shadowrun: Dragonfall (and no doubt Shadowrun: Hong Kong, although it's too early to say) and Divinity: Original Sin.

 

I think that they should absolutely Kickstart and crowdfund any potential Pillars of Eternity sequel(s) too. It is an amazing model, and high-quality studios of integrity can, as we have seen, be trusted to come through, even as the vision may change.

My thoughts as well.

 

What the OP is overlooking is that any revenue generated by sales of PoE will be funneled into the development of an expansion(s) first, so there may actually be a necessity to crowd fund (at least in part) PoE2.

[Valmy]

 

That is, unless PoE turns out to be better than all of them, and brings together old and new gamers, but I think that is hopelessly optimistic.

 

 

Why?  Is there something unachievable about being better than BG, IWD, or PS:T?

[Ink Blot]

 

 

Why?  Is there something unachievable about being better than BG, IWD, or PS:T?

 

Yep: it's impossible to wash the rose tint off those +10 Spectacles of Nostalgia.

[Kjaamor]

That is, unless PoE turns out to be better than all of them, and brings together old and new gamers, but I think that is hopelessly optimistic.

 

Why?  Is there something unachievable about being better than BG, IWD, or PS:T?

 

It is not unachievable that PoE should be better than BG, IWD or PS:T. It is not impossible that PoE should be the favourite IE/IE-like game for most people who currently have a favourite in that selection. It is highly unlikely, however, that PoE manages to please the niche fans so much that the majority of such fans prefer it to those games while also bringing in extra fans from other genres (as BG2 did).

 

The rose-tinted glasses are there in their thousands, make no mistake.

[Valmy]

I don't know.  I felt a lot of nostalgia in the mid 90s for the old RPGs simply because those kinds of games were no longer being made.  Once BG/FO showed up all that nostalgia went away.  I think most people just want new games in their chosen genres, it is only when those dry up that nostalgia takes hold.

[Kjaamor]

The steam coming from the **** stew that is the RPGcodex says different.

[DaxD]

 

First of all, it's my second post on this forum, so I wanted to say hello to everyone here I've been following this forum for a long time, I'm also a big fan of all IE games.

As you guys know, Obsidian announced that - along with expansions to PoE1 - they are going to work on PoE2.

http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/289534/Obsidian+has+started+thinking+about+%22Eternity+2%22/

I'm a bit sceptical about this, we haven't seen the final product yet, I hope it will be great ofc, but for me it's a bit too early to think about a sequel. But's it is not a main reason I'm writing this thread. The reason is what Feargus Urquhart said in one of his interviews:

 

 

 

Urquhart also said they'll likely go the Kickstarter route with this one as well, although it has yet to be decided.

I think it's not going to do well for a reputation of Obsidian, crowdfounding is okay, but not after such a big success with PoE1. I am convinced that this title is going to be sold well and there's no need of funding it on Kickstarter again. They should work on PoE2 with money they've already earned and then think about a possibility to ask people for help after having done some main contents of the game, not start from scratch. It simply doesn't look well to ask people for money again and again... even if they sold only 100,000 copies of PoE after the release they'll have 4,9mln euros ~ $5,4mln from it, that's a lot. I may be wrong, I don't know much about running a game studio, and I'm not familiar with costs coming out of it. It's just my opinion. Are you guys going to support them again or say "hey, you have the money, it's not fair". Let me know what's your opinion.

Cheers

 

sorry if there's a similar thread somewhere but I haven't seen it.

 

A bit too early to talk about whether PoE is a success or not. We would have to see the launch sales first (and so would Obsidian).

 

Plus, I'm not so sure Obsidian will make 4 millions dollars in sales. And anything below that would mean that Pillars of Eternity 2 would get less funding than the first game. Thus: shorter game, less content, less polish. 

 

I'm positive that fans would be more than happy to give Obsidian more money for the sequel. I mean, look at Shadowrun: Hong Kong. Harebrained Schemes had good sales from previous titles and used the money to fun a new game, but without additional funding some additional content would not be possible (revamped Matrix, better magic system, etc.).  And the fans were glad to throw money at the Kickstarter, even though they knew the game would be made with or without the Kickstarter.

 

A sequel would or rather should cost less to produce than the original. Big money goes into the engine and IP. We have also seen that monster/NPC models can be reused if not tweaked a little to give them a new look in a sequel.

 

I hope the first game is good. I did not like the game mechanics in the first run of the beta and backed off from it. I am hoping a lot of the feedback was reviewed and addressed in the final game product.