The Official Romance Thread

[Stun]

No this is a completely unreasonable and unrealistic  expectation, most of us promancers are very optimistic that Obsidian will implement some form of Romance in PoE2. Why go against what most people would like ?

I imagine for the same reason Obsidian decided that PoE will be a PC exclusive, even though most gamers are console users.... You know, the whole 'lets make a game for the under-represented, anti-majority, pro-niche peeps" and not, for example, "lets make a game for the masses who can just buy a new Bioware game every year to get their romance fixes."

 

But lets face reality now, Bruce. The fact that Obsidian's Promancer fanbase wants romances doesn't make a lick of difference. Never has, and you know it. You guys wanted romances in PoE way back during the kickstarter. You publically begged for it on every single available medium. Obsidian heard you and STILL turned you guys down cold, even as PE was breaking the KS funding records. That should tell you what you need to know...about both the present and the future.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Stun

[BruceVC]

Well, Stun I think that's an unconstructive point of view. Let's be honest. Romancing in games is still a fairly new concept, and the Casablanca of rpg's has not been made. Most romances are pretty weak, but many people enjoy them, I have enjoyed a few myself.

 

And if they are to evolve, people like OE has to take them to the next level and break of the primitive soap concept of romances that AAA games seem to want establish as the standard. 

 

You need to understand Stun is an active member of the anti-Romance crowd on these forums. They are a small but vociferous group, you need to meet Hiro if you think Stun is unconstructive, lets just say we have had  many entertaining debates     Anyway we have tried to reason with them  and make them see the advantages of optional Romance in a RPG.....but we failed. Good luck coming right  

 

I imagine for the same reason Obsidian decided that PoE will be a PC exclusive, even though most gamers are console users.... You know, the whole 'lets make a game for the under-represented, anti-majority, pro-niche peeps" and not, for example, "lets make a game for the masses who can just buy a new Bioware game every year to get their romance fixes."

 

But lets face reality now, Bruce. The fact that Obsidian's Promancer fanbase wants romances doesn't make a lick of difference. Never has, and you know it. You guys wanted romances in PoE way back during the kickstarter. You publically begged for it on every single available medium. Obsidian heard you and STILL turned you guys down cold, even as PE was breaking the KS funding records. That should tell you what you need to know...about both the present and the future.

 

 

Normally you would be spot on and I would be  hard pressed to dispute this post but you have overlooked a major consideration that irrevocably and fundamentally changes this situation 

 

Obsidian will have released their first RPG by then and they would be understandably less stressed

 

PoE will have been a success and now they would be asking themselves " how can we make PoE2 even better". Romance will inevitably come up and now Obsidian will have time to do a proper implementation. 

 

So yes they didn't want Romance during the KS because they had other much more important deliverables but I can guarantee you Romance will be a serious consideration for PoE2   

[TheisEjsing]

If they're against a theme which is a part of the human experience in a roleplaying game seems it's odd. I can see why it's not always needed. In other mediums, especially big movies, romance's often only in it, because it's seemingly mandatory, which always makes it forced and in the best scenarios just irrelevant. 

OE should not put a romance into their games, if they feel it won't better the game or if it's a subject that they don't want to explore. But to be against such an important theme in art, because it has been done poorly in the past is unreasonable.  

Edited January 6, 2015 by TheisEjsing

[BruceVC]

If they're against a theme which is a part of the human experience in a roleplaying game seems it's odd. I can see why it's not always needed. In other mediums, especially big movies, romance's often only in it, because it's seemingly mandatory, which always makes it forced and in the best scenarios just irrelevant. 

 

OE should not put a romance into their games, if they feel it won't better the game or if it's not a subject that they want to explore. But to be against such an important theme in art, because it has been done poorly in the past is unreasonable.  

 

Technically they said they didn't believe they could do it properly so they would rather not do a bad implementation

 

I can understand that as the creation of there first RPG and all its relevant components was obviously more important but I believe now they will have ample time to apply themselves to a fitting and acceptable Romance solution

[Edvin]

 

Normally you would be spot on and I would be  hard pressed to dispute this post but you have overlooked a major consideration that irrevocably and fundamentally changes this situation 

 

Obsidian will have released their first RPG by then and they would be understandably less stressed

 

PoE will have been a success and now they would be asking themselves " how can we make PoE2 even better". Romance will inevitably come up and now Obsidian will have time to do a proper implementation. 

 

So yes they didn't want Romance during the KS because they had other much more important deliverables but I can guarantee you Romance will be a serious consideration for PoE2   

 

 

I'm afraid that does not happen

1) Pilars of eternity
2) Divinity: Original Sin
3) Torment tides of numenera

Three games, where fans from the beginning tried push through romance and three games where fans failed.

Community financing has one good and one bad consequence:

Good : Developers can do what they want and do not have to listen to anyone.
Bad : Developers can do what they want and do not have to listen to anyone.

I have no doubt that Pilars of eternity will be a success and it convince developers that everything they do, they do well and do not have listen to anyone.
It works and people like it, so why change something or add something? Why not to bet on a sure and not give them the same thing again?
 

If we want to convince someone, we must do it right now, before the issue!

[Stun]

Normally you would be spot on and I would be  hard pressed to dispute this post but you have overlooked a major consideration that irrevocably and fundamentally changes this situation 

 

Obsidian will have released their first RPG by then and they would be understandably less stressed

Oh, you got me there, Bruce!

 

It's all about stress. Indeed, Obsidian has never released an RPG before, let alone an RPG with romances. And so they've decided to Play it safe for Pillars. And by safe, we really mean *SAFE*. No crazy risks, like 15 level mega-dungeons, Ciphers, 2 cities, and a built-from scratch combat ruleset. No no. Nothing like that, because... stress.

 

lol

 

PoE will have been a success and now they would be asking themselves " how can we make PoE2 even better".

I can assure you, Bruce, that as long as Chris Avellone is Obsidian Entertainment's creative lead, "Better" will never = "Lets add Romances".

 

 

In fact, There's a far greater likelihood that a financially successful PoE will motivate Obsidian's writing team to do the exact opposite: That is, twist the knife even deeper. Look for Romance mockery. Again, have you read some of Chris's blogs and interviews on the subject?

Edited January 6, 2015 by Stun

[Namutree]

 

If they're against a theme which is a part of the human experience in a roleplaying game seems it's odd. I can see why it's not always needed. In other mediums, especially big movies, romance's often only in it, because it's seemingly mandatory, which always makes it forced and in the best scenarios just irrelevant. 

 

OE should not put a romance into their games, if they feel it won't better the game or if it's not a subject that they want to explore. But to be against such an important theme in art, because it has been done poorly in the past is unreasonable.  

 

Technically they said they didn't believe they could do it properly so they would rather not do a bad implementation

 

I can understand that as the creation of there first RPG and all its relevant components was obviously more important but I believe now they will have ample time to apply themselves to a fitting and acceptable Romance solution

 

It certainly is a serious possibility. Another issue is how easy is the game to mod. For example; if PoE is too hard to mod in romances the overall fanbase's desire for Obsidian to include a romance in the vanilla game will be much greater. One of the best arguments against OE providing romance in PoE is that the modding community can add their own anyway. If this can't be done then I believe PoE2 will probably have romances.

 

In a way; you should hope PoE is too hard to mod Bruce.

[BruceVC]

 

 

If they're against a theme which is a part of the human experience in a roleplaying game seems it's odd. I can see why it's not always needed. In other mediums, especially big movies, romance's often only in it, because it's seemingly mandatory, which always makes it forced and in the best scenarios just irrelevant. 

 

OE should not put a romance into their games, if they feel it won't better the game or if it's not a subject that they want to explore. But to be against such an important theme in art, because it has been done poorly in the past is unreasonable.  

 

Technically they said they didn't believe they could do it properly so they would rather not do a bad implementation

 

I can understand that as the creation of there first RPG and all its relevant components was obviously more important but I believe now they will have ample time to apply themselves to a fitting and acceptable Romance solution

 

It certainly is a serious possibility. Another issue is how easy is the game to mod. For example; if PoE is too hard to mod in romances the overall fanbase's desire for Obsidian to include a romance in the vanilla game will be much greater. One of the best arguments against OE providing romance in PoE is that the modding community can add their own anyway. If this can't be done then I believe PoE2 will probably have romances.

 

In a way; you should hope PoE is too hard to mod Bruce.

 

 

Good technical points young grasshopper. And very relevant to the overall discussion   

[Stun]

Technically they said they didn't believe they could do it properly so they would rather not do a bad implementation

And for normal people, this would constitute finality on the topic. But not for Bruce. Oh no. He is, quite literally, reading this statement from Josh Sawyer and responding with: "Please do it anyway! I'll take nauseating, bad-fan-fiction romances! Even if they turn the only IP you own into an industry joke!" Edited January 6, 2015 by Stun

[TheisEjsing]

Okay, just reading these few posts, it seems clear to me, that the function of this thread is about ego, being right for the sake of being right and having fun, and not to expand each others horisonts. I like that a lot! ^_^ 

[BruceVC]

 

Technically they said they didn't believe they could do it properly so they would rather not do a bad implementation

And for normal people, this would constitute finality on the topic. But not for Bruce. Oh no. He is, quite literally, reading this statement from Josh Sawyer and responding with: "Please do it anyway! I'll take nauseating, bad-fan-fiction romances! Even if they turn the only IP you own into an industry joke!"

 

 

Sure, I understand Josh's view and he is entitled to it but that doesn't mean he would be so intransigent and refuse to even consider Romance. Remember Stun the ultimate success criteria of a software product is not if the developers are happy but rather if the fans are 

[Stun]

There's also this:

So yes they didn't want Romance during the KS because they had other much more important deliverables

As in: More classes; Better-sounding music; A 15 level mega dungeon; A second city; Linux and Mac support; A stronghold; Crafting; French and Spanish Translations; Extra difficulty settings; and Chris Avellone forced to play Arcanum.

 

 

If the Developers see these things as more important than Romances, Bruce, then your hope-filled prediction of a Romance-endowed PoE2 does not look too likely. Does it.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Stun

[Stun]

Sure, I understand Josh's view and he is entitled to it but that doesn't mean he would be so intransigent and refuse to even consider Romance.

Yes. It does. You're not that familiar with Josh, are you.

[Edvin]

Ultimate success criteria of a software product is not if the developers are happy but rather if the fans are.

 

Too bad that the Josh do not see it as well.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Edvin

[Luckmann]

 

Ultimate success criteria of a software product is not if the developers are happy but rather if the fans are.

 

Too bad that the Josh do not see it as well.

 

 

Screw the fans. Most "fans" can't tell their mouth from their ass and they're more fickle than a thayvian whore.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Luckmann

[Stun]

But enough about BSN. lol

[Sonntam]

Pillars of Eternity is the very epitome of playing it safe. The lore of the world itself is pretty classic, with dwarves and elves abound.

 

Also, I would argue that Obsidian has far more experience with dungeons, translations, big worlds, you name it, rather than with romances. Of course they didn't add romances. Romances are generally considered to be high risk and demand a lot of effort (and are easy to screw up). 

 

HOWEVER, Obsidian is more known to take risks in DLCs/expansions. In F:NV they played around with gameplay mechanics a lot. Dead Money had wonderful survival gameplay (that could have been not everyone's cup of tea). And so on and so on.

 

While not add a couple romances in expansions, then? Especially if someone from Obsidian says "yes, I really want to write romance for this character, because it will make a lot of sense from plot point of view"? (Chris Avellon, you know we love your tragic and unrequited romances.)

[BruceVC]

Pillars of Eternity is the very epitome of playing it safe. The lore of the world itself is pretty classic, with dwarves and elves abound.

 

Also, I would argue that Obsidian has far more experience with dungeons, translations, big worlds, you name it, rather than with romances. Of course they didn't add romances. Romances are generally considered to be high risk and demand a lot of effort (and are easy to screw up). 

 

HOWEVER, Obsidian is more known to take risks in DLCs/expansions. In F:NV they played around with gameplay mechanics a lot. Dead Money had wonderful survival gameplay (that could have been not everyone's cup of tea). And so on and so on.

 

While not add a couple romances in expansions, then? Especially if someone from Obsidian says "yes, I really want to write romance for this character, because it will make a lot of sense from plot point of view"? (Chris Avellon, you know we love your tragic and unrequited romances.)

 

Thats a good idea, they could add Romance through an expansion/ DLC's

 

And effectively test the waters, the only issue may be normally Romance isn't tied to the plot?

[Yellow Rabbit]

This topic is fun. In some controversial way.

 

Let's say there is hypothetical RPG out there where neither protagonist nor his/her companions are antropomorphous folks. Let them be cute little slugs or brutal energetic lifeforms or whatever. Would there be just as many fierce demands to add romances for those as there are for characters in game like PoE? Just curious.

[BruceVC]

This topic is fun. In some controversial way.

 

Let's say there is hypothetical RPG out there where neither protagonist nor his/her companions are antropomorphous folks. Let them be cute little slugs or brutal energetic lifeforms or whatever. Would there be just as many fierce demands to add romances for those as there are for characters in game like PoE? Just curious.

 

No, not from my side as I wouldn't be able to relate to the party interaction that is required for Romance. I always say Romance is basically between humanoid creatures, so to expect Romance between a Centaur and a human would be unrealistic for me ?

[Edvin]

Also, I would argue that Obsidian has far more experience with dungeons, translations, big worlds, you name it, rather than with romances. Of course they didn't add romances.

Romances are generally considered to be high risk and demand a lot of effort (and are easy to screw up). 

 

If I remember correctly, the only two romances that Obsidian did was in Mask of the Betrayer and Alpha Protocol.

In both cases, no more than the average romance, so I can understand their continence.

To be honest, I'm not sure if they employ someone who would be able to write a good romance.

 

While not add a couple romances in expansions, then? Especially if someone from Obsidian says "yes, I really want to write romance for this character, because it will make a lot of sense from plot point of view"? (Chris Avellon, you know we love your tragic and unrequited romances.)

Really? DLC romances? That is HIGHLY unlikely.

In whole game history am not able to give a single case of something like that.

 

Edited January 6, 2015 by Edvin

[Sonntam]

 

Also, I would argue that Obsidian has far more experience with dungeons, translations, big worlds, you name it, rather than with romances. Of course they didn't add romances.

Romances are generally considered to be high risk and demand a lot of effort (and are easy to screw up). 

 

If I remember correctly, the only two romances that Obsidian did was in Mask of the Betrayer and Alpha Protocol.

In both cases, no more than the average romance,

 so I can understand their continence.

To be honest, I'm not sure if they employ someone who would be able to write a good romance.

 

There was also Kotor 2. Relationship with Visas was pretty nice. Atton is pretty close to a romance, even if the protagonist don't reciprocate his feelings.

 

Actually that's even the game that made me reconsider my opinion of Obsidian and their ability to write romances.

 

While not add a couple romances in expansions, then? Especially if someone from Obsidian says "yes, I really want to write romance for this character, because it will make a lot of sense from plot point of view"? (Chris Avellon, you know we love your tragic and unrequited romances.)

Really? DLC romances? That is HIGHLY unlikely.

In whole game history am not able to give a single case of something like that.

 

MotB is an expansion and one that had romances (no matter how little there was of the actual romance content). 

 

Also, I could  name you Bioware as an example of a studio that constantly offers new companions and romances in DLCs... but let's not go there. They rarely handle DLCs well.

 

 

This topic is fun. In some controversial way.

 

Let's say there is hypothetical RPG out there where neither protagonist nor his/her companions are antropomorphous folks. Let them be cute little slugs or brutal energetic lifeforms or whatever. Would there be just as many fierce demands to add romances for those as there are for characters in game like PoE? Just curious.

 

No, not from my side as I wouldn't be able to relate to the party interaction that is required for Romance. I always say Romance is basically between humanoid creatures, so to expect Romance between a Centaur and a human would be unrealistic for me ?

 

Well, people were ecstatic when it came to romances in Mass Effect. Turians are not very human like, but Garrus was still a very popular romance choice. 

 

Also, I personally always wanted to romance a batarian and those are pretty ugly, no matter how you look at it.

 

 

Pillars of Eternity is the very epitome of playing it safe. The lore of the world itself is pretty classic, with dwarves and elves abound.

 

Also, I would argue that Obsidian has far more experience with dungeons, translations, big worlds, you name it, rather than with romances. Of course they didn't add romances. Romances are generally considered to be high risk and demand a lot of effort (and are easy to screw up). 

 

HOWEVER, Obsidian is more known to take risks in DLCs/expansions. In F:NV they played around with gameplay mechanics a lot. Dead Money had wonderful survival gameplay (that could have been not everyone's cup of tea). And so on and so on.

 

While not add a couple romances in expansions, then? Especially if someone from Obsidian says "yes, I really want to write romance for this character, because it will make a lot of sense from plot point of view"? (Chris Avellon, you know we love your tragic and unrequited romances.)

 

Thats a good idea, they could add Romance through an expansion/ DLC's

 

And effectively test the waters, the only issue may be normally Romance isn't tied to the plot?

 

Yes, romance is often not tied to the plot and I find that personally a disappointment. If you romanced Safiya in MotB the romance was plot relevant and could have (and should have!) allowed to explore more the dichotomy between yourself/Akachi and Safiya/Founder... along the lines of "how can you trust yourself when you are the mask and the mask is you?". How much of the feelings is really yours and how much of it belongs to someone else? 

 

Atton "romance" was also relevant to the plot, if only because Atton's main motivation for following a female protagonist was that he had a massive crush on her. 

 

Otherwise I could mention Bioware games where often romancing plot critical characters (like Morrigan) would offer perhaps more insight/provide more interesting choices (like following her through the Eluvian). 

Edited January 6, 2015 by Sonntam

[redneckdevil]

If they're against a theme which is a part of the human experience in a roleplaying game seems it's odd. I can see why it's not always needed. In other mediums, especially big movies, romance's often only in it, because it's seemingly mandatory, which always makes it forced and in the best scenarios just irrelevant.

 

OE should not put a romance into their games, if they feel it won't better the game or if it's a subject that they don't want to explore. But to be against such an important theme in art, because it has been done poorly in the past is unreasonable.

They are not against the "important theme in art" as alot of their games do have romance and love stories in them, hell fonv had quite a bit of them. What they are against is involving the player themselves into the romance. They can write very good romance/love stories, buts it different and id dare say easier to write a romance/love story with npcs because its set in the options because they already know who the npcs are and what type of character they are. Players on the other hand, they have no idea what the players character is and what their personality or what they are looking for or expecting so that makes it alot more difficult and why most romances are simply miss instead of hits because so far the ones ive seen are designed around a certain character. The player isnt that type of character and the wholething doesnt "fit".

 

So no, they are not "against" romance or love stories and i would bet money we will see some types of romance or love stories in POE, they are against romance or love stories involving the player and centering it around the players. I mean really, if u follow the thread and think of how many games have come out since the bg series, and so far really really only 2 or 3 games are being toted as examples of romance done right and i believe only 2 of them let u create ur own character. A few of the games that are being toted as examples had a set character where the developer was already a good bit in control in designing the backstory and motives of said character that it isnt like a blank slate such as ff7 or mass effect or even planescape. The only 2 games im seeing as herald as examples for good examples of romance with a blank slate character is dao and bg2.

[Gwen Morse]

If the developers don't feel they can handle romance well, how can they think they can handle other emotions/relationships?

 

Love is a fundamental human emotion, just as basic and primal and in-avoidable as anger, or humor.

 

If you take 6-8 random people and put them in a somewhat isolated group for just a few weeks, regardless of age/sex/gender/race or ethnic background/socio-economic class/language (or any other category that can be applied), there will be romance and sexual relationships. It's nearly impossible to avoid.

 

I'm baffled at the idea that Chris Avellone would say that he wouldn't be including romance in this game. So many projects of his had reasonably well-handed romantic elements for their particular worlds (Fallout's expression of "romance" was very different from Planescape Torment's, but both were good).

 

Flirting, innuendo, and expressions of closer attachment seem almost required in a modern RPG that develops character relationships. Especially if the game is being presented as "mature". Love and sex in the script wouldn't automatically make a game mature, but pretending they don't exist seems rather immature.

[Emc2]

If the developers don't feel they can handle romance well, how can they think they can handle other emotions/relationships?

 

Love is a fundamental human emotion, just as basic and primal and in-avoidable as anger, or humor.

 

If you take 6-8 random people and put them in a somewhat isolated group for just a few weeks, regardless of age/sex/gender/race or ethnic background/socio-economic class/language (or any other category that can be applied), there will be romance and sexual relationships. It's nearly impossible to avoid.

 

I'm baffled at the idea that Chris Avellone would say that he wouldn't be including romance in this game. So many projects of his had reasonably well-handed romantic elements for their particular worlds (Fallout's expression of "romance" was very different from Planescape Torment's, but both were good).

 

Flirting, innuendo, and expressions of closer attachment seem almost required in a modern RPG that develops character relationships. Especially if the game is being presented as "mature". Love and sex in the script wouldn't automatically make a game mature, but pretending they don't exist seems rather immature.

The point of not putting Romance in mostly includes the PC-Companion/NPC Romances. This is not the same thing as pre-written NPC-NPC Romances or even the PS:T one. Romance in this case means that you can be in a relationship with another character in the game based on your own choices and actions.

 

Let's say the game has 8 companions. Each one most likely has a personality and they have their own interactions with other pre-written NPCs. This is fairly easy to do since it's pretty much certain what will happen between them. It's just not the same with PC-NPC relationships. It's hard to write a character who likes "you" as a PC since there are so many playstyles and conversation options. It's just hard enough to make some emotions between PC and the other guy, making the other guy think that you are the one is just too much work for this project, as they said. It would most likely end up to be a total mess instead of likable party.

 

They probably will include romance at least in some form, but there will not be PC-NPC romances unlike some other big RPGs.