Journalism and bias in the gaming industry.

[Longknife]

 

 

Would Vault City's First Person be as memorable as a random white guy instead of Joanne Lynette?

Don't confuse not believing it's a necessity with it being a bad thing.

 

 

It's a simple yes or no question, there is no need for the defensive deflection.

 

 

 

That's not a defensive deflection at all.

 

What he's saying is diversity is always welcomed and always nice, but policing and trying to force diversity is not. We want to see Fallout 2 have Joanne Lynette because the developers want it to have Joanne Lynette, not because the developers feel pressured to meet a quota or something. They should make the characters as they please, and not make characters in an attempt to appeal to some whiny "progressive" journalists. To answer your example of Joanne Lynette, I could say isn't it nice that the King or Mr. House in New Vegas is white? Well, yeah it is, and not so much because omg white people = automatically amazing or something, but because that was the vision they had for those characters and they got made that way without any interference stifling their vision. And that's good.

 

  There is a big difference between welcoming and embracing diversity....and mandating and demanding diversity. It's as I've said before: no one here would take offense to Anita Sarkeesian actually creating a video game out of that proposed video game plot video she has up on her channel. We'd all welcome that she make it. But it's not happening. Instead she sits there with ties to games journalism and basically criticizes other games for not following her subjective idea about how games should be. No, let them make games their way and let the SJWs and feminists and the like make games their way. The problem only exists because the latter groups are not making games at all, and instead choose to sit there and whine and attempt to force others to mold their views to appease them, which ultimately only stagnates art and creativity.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Longknife

[Malcador]

I don't know, in a weird way Jacob's utter lack of anything interesting (creepy "....the prize..." aside) does make him memorable.

[Volourn]

"Gissendaner would be only the 16th American woman put to death since the U.S. Supreme Court allowed the death penalty to resume in 1976. About 1,400 men have been executed since then, according to the Death Penalty Information Center."

 

Patriarchy!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://www.crowdrise.com/ZeroBiscuit/fundraiser/jeremyharding

 

Thought some of you guys would be interested in this, seeing as most of you are TB fans.

[BruceVC]

Level up or gou hoouuuumm, gaymer ghuurl!

 

 

 

Great video. Now I wonder how quick our resident SJWs ignore it or belittle it.

 

I am going to both belittle  and ignore that video

 

For the simple the fact that the video is guilty of doing exactly what he accuses others of doing. He basically accuses journalists and SJW of being responsible for that inaccurate episode of Law & Order....WTF. You talk about false stereotypes 

 

What have gaming journalists and people who believe in SJ issues got to do with the production of Law & Order? The producers of that show look at real issues of abuse in society that exist and create episodes on those issues. If anything you should contact NBC and **** Wolf if you have some issue with Law & Order

 

But somehow gaming journalists and SJW become the target of vitriol, did he even mention **** Wolf once ?

 

A terrible video that is misplaced in highlighting the issue around  who is responsible for the  spurious characterization of gamer's in that episode 

[Volourn]

I notice how you don't once dispute his actual 3 points.

 

\Also, what do you think of how the death penalty is used in regards to men vs women?  And, be careful how you answer as it is an obvious trap.  :)

Edited March 3, 2015 by Volourn

[kirottu]

https://archive.today/0OHoz

If every movie were a porn movie, most people wouldn’t see movies. The majority of games are basically porn—the onus is on us to make more things that are worth a reasonable person’s time.

 

https://archive.today/Sm0Mw

Mark Kern has been added to blockbot, because "abuse apology". I don't even know what that means.

Edited March 3, 2015 by kirottu

[kirottu]

*snip*

SJ extremists and gaming "journalists" created a false narrative demonizing gamers. Makers of Law & Order listened and believed. I don't understand what is so hard to understand about it.

 

Just to clarify it really is a false narrative:

Number of arrests related to GamerGate: 0

Number of violence related to GamerGate: 0

Number of women bullied out of gaming by GamerGate: 0

Number of gaming magazines who updated their ethical guidelines: A dozen or so? This actually quite embarrassing since I haven't kept a count.

[Meshugger]

Jonathan Blow is just such an insufferable, stereotypical high-brow **** to such a degree that he is just funny instead.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Meshugger

[Volourn]

He's also flat out a liar. I have never played a porn game and  all my decades of playing. I've certainly watched my share of porn movies thoguh - many of them of the ones passing as 'mainstream'. L0LZ

 

Also, didn't we just have a pseudo porn movie come out focused on females enjoying watching another (fictional) female being abused wishing it was them? Hmmm...

Edited March 3, 2015 by Volourn

[BruceVC]

I notice how you don't once dispute his actual 3 points.

 

\Also, what do you think of how the death penalty is used in regards to men vs women?  And, be careful how you answer as it is an obvious trap.  :)

 

Its just such a strange series of questions to ask people, you  need context and more information on what he means by those 3 questions. 

 

• Of course some " gamers" welcome women, 
• Are violent video games stupid? Impossible to answer because the definition of "stupid " is subjective
• Are male gamers losers? Impossible to answer or quantify because there are some people who think anyone who plays games is a loser. I don't support generalizations about groups of people and once again the definition of a " loser " is subjective 

 

But my issue with that video still remains, he generailzes and blames gaming journalists and SJW for that episode of Law & Order. Its just unsubstantiated diatribe and helps contribute towards this culture of " look what gaming journalists and SJW have done " 

[Fighter]

 

"It’s kind of like if every movie were a porn movie, most people wouldn’t see movies"

“The majority of games are basically porn—the onus is on us to make more things that are worth a reasonable person’s time.”

 

Yes 50 Shades of Grey clearly has less in common with porn than games... 

Edited March 3, 2015 by Fighter

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Just to clarify it really is a false narrative:

Number of arrests related to GamerGate: 0

Number of violence related to GamerGate: 0

Number of women bullied out of gaming by GamerGate: 0

 

 

...Well, actually...

 

Anecdotical, I know, but a not-insignificant number of girls I know who've been considering a career in game development have said "**** this ****, I'll work somewhere else" exactly because of Gamergate.

[Longknife]

 

Level up or gou hoouuuumm, gaymer ghuurl!

 

 

 

Great video. Now I wonder how quick our resident SJWs ignore it or belittle it.

 

I am going to both belittle  and ignore that video

 

For the simple the fact that the video is guilty of doing exactly what he accuses others of doing. He basically accuses journalists and SJW of being responsible for that inaccurate episode of Law & Order....WTF.

 

 

I will tackle this: how are they not?

 

 

They've encouraged a hysterical culture of fear and hate. They've written articles telling everyone how terrible gamers are in their minds, and they've constantly discussed any threats they've gotten. Anita has made no mention of (or effort to stop) that Brazilian Celebrinando guy that GamerGate alerted her to, and Wu has been caught multiple times harassing herself. She's currently claiming she received a bomb threat for if she attends some convention coming up (PAX?) and yet has shown no evidence for it to the people she SHOULD be showing it to, such as the FBI and the people hosting the convention.

 

  Direct responsibility in the sense they wrote it themselves, no. But responsible in the sense they encouraged this sort of outlook on the gaming community? Absolutely. If not them, then who would be responsible? The Law and Order episode falls directly in line with their narrative; no one else would've suggested (suggested indirectly, mind you, not saying they spoke) to Law and Order that gamers hate women and are constantly attacking them.  So if not them, then who's responsible?

 

 

It's clear as day they hold some responsibility. So clear that, by my recollection, two developers jumped on twitter and started bashing games journalism and naming them responsible for this culture of hate gaming now has to deal with.

 

 

 

 

 

Anecdotical, I know, but a not-insignificant number of girls I know who've been considering a career in game development have said "**** this ****, I'll work somewhere else" exactly because of Gamergate.

 

 

Have you considered this could be the responsibility of the people claiming gaming is unwelcoming to women? It's the very same argument STEM is now using: STEM workers are claiming the only people keeping women out of STEM are those claiming STEM is a hostile environment towards women, thus scaring women from even attempting. In reality, we've not seen a single STEM worker comment and say they were treated poorly in the field. Should also be noted - and don't mean to be a **** here - that the very women claiming gaming is a hostile environment towards women? Yeah, they made piss poor games that no one buys. It's an excuse they're feeding themselves to deny any failures on their part. It's something every human being constantly attempts to do and that we all need to watch out for; looks like they're not watching out for it. By my recollection we've seen a grand total of one woman in a major gaming company who merely said the Xbro guy "does not speak for all of us." I don't even remember her saying she gets harassed or treated poorly or anything, she merely wanted to provide a voice stating not all game developers support GamerGate.

 

   I also have to point out that I find it odd that in the above example, Bruce wishes to claim the journalists should not be held responsible for Law and Order choosing to reflect their narrative. Here, you wish to claim GamerGate is responsible for women choosing to work somewhere else. Not hypocritical since you're two different people, just something to think about since in my opinion, it can't really be both.

 

 

 

 

 

  As a small tangent not really relevant to the above but relevant to claims of harassment and threats currently being spouted by Wu and the like (just posting this cause I've wanted to post about this, not so much directed at you aluminum so you don't get confused ), I would like to say that yes, people lie for attention. I believe I saw in the news just last week that a woman in the UK is facing jail time because she faked her own bully and wasted police resources over it. Reading that story actually reminded me that there was a day I was playing TF2 with some friends and we were all logged into a teamspeak server. Some random girl showed up claiming she had just been kicked off another teamspeak server because she was a female gamer, and she sounded rather timid while saying so. I said none of us care about that and she's welcome to chill out here and play with us, and she was quick to want to join us. Up until that point, only I had spoken. Not long after, my two female friends in the channel spoke up too. Suddenly the new girl went from social to quiet, and quietly disappeared completely after a round or two. Looking back on it, I have to wonder if she wasn't attention starved and thought being a girl gamer would get her attention. When she realized that it wouldn't, she hopped to the next channel.

 

  I've also recently started playing TF2 Highlander Lobbies, and they've got a giant mumble server set up for it that probably has 100-200+ people online at any given moment. A female friend of mine has told me she sometimes gets a sense of jealousy from this other female who has long played there before us, and I'd be inclined to say I sorta see it too.

   Let's be real here, two types of negative stereotypes do infact exist: attention-starved women and socially awkward guys. I've met both on that mumble server, and when a guy joins our channel, my female friend speaks and their reaction is "wait, she's a girl!?!" while having a sudden interest in holding her attention, yes, the other girl immediately seems to want to change the subject, get their attention back or get them away from my friend. Sometimes it's hilarious amusement where I get to watch the guy's pathetic attempts at woo'ing a girl as I ask myself "wtf why do these guys treat women like an alien race or something," other times...? Well, it's sad really. It's a testament to how imperfect humans are, and how flawed and mistake-ridden we are. As I said above, I think this more or less describes what drives people like Wu and Anita. It's not a clear disdain for actual misogyny in the industry, it's a cover for their own failures. Wu can't admit she's a failed game developer thusfar and needs an excuse to cover it, Anita has essentially sold out and created a business built upon half-truths and lies, and she needs that to keep going for her to get paid at all.

 

 

  But yeah, sorry if that last bit seemed a little all over the place. It's just something that's been on my mind in general about how we need to perhaps be more skeptical of people's claims in general. I for one for example do not bother giving Mike Cernovich the time of day because he seems like an idiot that makes claims he can't back up, but likewise, yes, I am going to be skeptical of any girl who claims there's rampant misogyny amongst gamers as she gives off an attention-starved vibe and can't give specific examples.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Longknife

[Namutree]

 

 

Just to clarify it really is a false narrative:

Number of arrests related to GamerGate: 0

Number of violence related to GamerGate: 0

Number of women bullied out of gaming by GamerGate: 0

 

 

...Well, actually...

 

Anecdotical, I know, but a not-insignificant number of girls I know who've been considering a career in game development have said "**** this ****, I'll work somewhere else" exactly because of Gamergate.

 

Why? I don't see how GG would pose any kind of problem for them.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Namutree

[Fighter]

In other news. TB posted this. I'm sure someone will find a way to make misogyny the explanation.

 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Anecdotical, I know, but a not-insignificant number of girls I know who've been considering a career in game development have said "**** this ****, I'll work somewhere else" exactly because of Gamergate.

 

 

Have you considered this could be the responsibility of the people claiming gaming is unwelcoming to women?

 

 

 

"Silly women, they're just so confused, they have no idea why they don't want to work on the field! Of course people believing that harrassment happens is not the fault of harrassers; the only people responsible are those who report on ongoing harrassment!"

 

 

 

It's the very same argument STEM is now using: STEM workers are claiming the only people keeping women out of STEM are those claiming STEM is a hostile environment towards women, thus scaring women from even attempting.

 

 

 

Could we avoid weasel words like "STEM workers are claiming"? Exactly who is claiming, exactly what: those are pretty important questions. Actual quotes would be helpful.

 

 

In reality, we've not seen a single STEM worker comment and say they were treated poorly in the field. 

 

 

The fact that you haven't seen it doesn't mean they don't exist. Of course, these forums not exactly being a welcoming environment for anybody with progressive leanings, it's no wonder you haven't heard about them. I'll dredge up some links when I have the time.

 

I also feel the need to mention that between the listeners' almost universal "they must be lying/trying to blame their own failure on it" mentality when someone does speak up (and subsequent "professional victim" labels if they don't shut up about it), and strong structural incentives to not badmouth one's former employers (this one's actually universal, but the effect is not negligible), people aren't exactly encouraged to do so.

 

 

I mean... you're a smart man. At least I'll assume you are, because I imagine law schools have pretty strict entry requirements. Whatever. Surely it must be not hard for you to see, if you stop for a minute and think about it, how this is kind of a catch-22 situation for the disaffected parties: if they do speak up, they can expect prolonged harrassment and diminished prospects on the job market (assuming they're looking for employment on their field) for basically no discernible immediate gain - the utter disinterest of the self-professed moderates is the best outcome they can hope to achieve (realistically, though, most likely lots of handwringing and attempts to rationalize the situation/discredit the speaker will commence). If they don't, they're actively making it harder for anybody in a situation similar to theirs to raise their voice by lending credence to claims such as yours. It's not even a game where the only winning move is not to play, given the fact that "not playing" would entail "seeking employment in a different field", which might not pay for student loans!

[Malcador]

Anecdotical, I know, but a not-insignificant number of girls I know who've been considering a career in game development have said "**** this ****, I'll work somewhere else" exactly because of Gamergate.

Well nothing lost there, really, they don't have a career to lose. You'd think they'd be more worried about serious issues in the industry like overwork, bad management, etc. than people being nasty on Twitter. Not like every woman that makes games is going to get this abuse (it'd have to be guaranteed to justify said fear) and if one is good enough to reach the levels where people know of you (no one knows of Tools Programmers, for example) you will be earning enough to just laugh at them as they try to assail you.

 

Also, one has to be pretty hard to make it in almost any field these days, as it should be.

 

Probably relevant as well, even if she was from a company I want to see ruined still (R6 ) http://www.polygon.com/2015/2/26/8078083/jade-raymond-next-step

Edited March 3, 2015 by Malcador

[Blarghagh]

What do you think about this video, Alum?

 

[Volourn]

"Its just unsubstantiated diatribe"

 

No, it isn't.

 

TN: That poor women has been inflcited with 'internalized misogny'.

[Fighter]

If there are women that get scared away from the industry then all the more reason to stop with the fear mongering and hysteria. There is no "campaign to drive women out of the industry". It's laughable. It only exists in SJW imagination. It's a paper tiger made up of a handful of nobodies. 

[Longknife]

 

 

"Silly women, they're just so confused, they have no idea why they don't want to work on the field! Of course people believing that harrassment happens is not the fault of harrassers; the only people responsible are those who report on ongoing harrassment!"

 

 

What harassment? That's exactly the problem. The cases of harassment are completely unnamed, save for claims by people proven untrustworthy such as Wu and Quinn. And no, girl gamer logging into game and being hit on =/= girl developer being sexually harassed at work. There's a big difference between logging on a game server with people ranging from ages 10-30 and there's some socially awkward yahoo, and someone working at a company and being expected to act a certain way if they value their paycheck.  Name one example of a female developer who faces harassment that hasn't been proven to be full of snot, and the "well they don't speak up because they fear further harassment" argument doesn't fly; we cannot be held responsible for their unwillingness to provide the evidence and communicate.

 

 

 

Could we avoid weasel words like "STEM workers are claiming"? Exactly who is claiming, exactly what: those are pretty important questions. Actual quotes would be helpful.

 

 

Mercedes Carrera and some friends of hers (if I recall correctly, she knew another woman or two in STEM, I could be wrong here though). And before you say "that's just one person," she happens to be the only example we have. She's the only one to have spoken up and said her opinion based on her experiences in the field. I didn't name her because I thought we all knew she was the only STEM woman to comment on the matter.

 

 

 

The fact that you haven't seen it doesn't mean they don't exist. Of course, these forums not exactly being a welcoming environment for anybody with progressive leanings, it's no wonder you haven't heard about them. I'll dredge up some links when I have the time.

 

 

Exactly, the burden of proof is on you here.

 

 

I also feel the need to mention that between the listeners' almost universal "they must be lying/trying to blame their own failure on it" mentality when someone does speak up (and subsequent "professional victim" labels if they don't shut up about it), and strong structural incentives to not badmouth one's former employers (this one's actually universal, but the effect is not negligible), people aren't exactly encouraged to do so.

 

 

There was nothing unfair or vicious about the ways Quinn and Wu have been exposed. I mean let's be real here: these two are extreme cases and both seem like chronic liars. There was not a situation of "they're women claiming harassment so let's not trust them." No, it was a result of Quinn's story inciting journalists to rush to her aid to try and bury the topic and Wu insisting on inserting herself into the matter when no one knew who she was. It's very telling that I do not even remember the name of the female developer who spoke out to say not all developers support GamerGate, nor do any of us: because she did nothing wrong and therefore was never discredited nor harassed or anything. She merely had an opinion, as is her right.  And even if you wish to argue "well you probably didn't hear about the harassment she got," again the burden of proof would be on you and again, if that's the kind of mentality women are feeding themselves and thus motivating themselves not to pursue a gaming career, would that be the responsibility of GamerGate or of the journalists and the narrative that encourages women to believe lots of harassment goes on that we're not seeing? The answer is simple: provide proof, and it's the responsibility of GamerGate. Without proof, it's the journalists who are responsible for scaring women off.  If you lie about someone and scare people off from talking to them, then you are guilty and you are the jerk. If what you say is true and that the person is a pedophile or whatever, then that person is responsible themselves for people choosing to avoid them.

 

  It all comes down to that, and as I've said, I do not see any significant harassment going on from GamerGate. If you want to say the conflict as a whole from both sides is scaring people off as both sides are capable of minor cases of harassment here and there, then again, you cannot hold GamerGate solely responsible for scaring people off. Hell, I'd argue GamerGate's position would - in another analogy - be akin to if someone wished to blame the Ukraine from dissuading tourists from visiting it because it's in conflict with Russia. So the Ukraine was supposed to lie down and take it...?

 

 

 

I mean... you're a smart man. At least I'll assume you are, because I imagine law schools have pretty strict entry requirements. Whatever. Surely it must be not hard for you to see, if you stop for a minute and think about it, how this is kind of a catch-22 situation for the disaffected parties: if they do speak up, they can expect prolonged harrassment and diminished prospects on the job market (assuming they're looking for employment on their field) for basically no discernible immediate gain - the utter disinterest of the self-professed moderates is the best outcome they can hope to achieve (realistically, though, most likely lots of handwringing and attempts to rationalize the situation/discredit the speaker will commence). If they don't, they're actively making it harder for anybody in a situation similar to theirs to raise their voice by lending credence to claims such as yours. It's not even a game where the only winning move is not to play, given the fact that "not playing" would entail "seeking employment in a different field", which might not pay for student loans!

 

 

Again, until it's proven that the narrative of "gamers are misogynist harassers and jerks" is absolutely warranted, then it's the journalists selling that narrative - not the people speaking out against said narrative - that should be held accountable for women avoiding the field.

 

I could make the claim right now that you are a pathological liar and a sociopath, for example, and that everyone should avoid conversing with you for their own good, and you would quite reasonably be mad at me for making such outrageous claims. If people look onto our little quarrel and determine they're going to avoid you (and perhaps me aswell), are you at fault? Is it your fault people do not converse with us?

 

 

That simple, really.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If there are women that get scared away from the industry then all the more reason to stop with the fear mongering and hysteria. There is no "campaign to drive women out of the industry". It's laughable. It only exists in SJW imagination. It's a paper tiger made up of a handful of nobodies.

 

I'd say the interview Malc linked is relevant here. Perhaps it's elitist of me, but I'd take Jade Raymond's word on how the videogame industry is over that of relative outsiders.

 

Archive for those who don't want to give Polygon clicks: https://archive.today/wBqeF

[Blarghagh]

I don't know, of the current atmosphere the actual outcries I've yet to find one that rings true. For example, there was a campaign recently to boycott Stardock because Stardock didn't support women in the game industry. Yet Stardock famously employs a larger percentage of women in high profile jobs than most of the game industry. So even if there are problems with sexism in the game industry (and STEM, though as a game dev I consider calling game development STEM ridiculous, at most some of the engine programmers count) whatever is going on right now in context of the #GamerGate debate, the "anti" side is not helping.

 

I also find it interesting that all the women who report being harassed are all hardcore feminists. Of course, any harassment is bad, that goes without saying, but I find it interesting that the focus remains on women when the people being harassed have a much more specific features which explain why they are harassed and not others.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I also find it interesting that all the women who report being harassed are all hardcore feminists. Of course, any harassment is bad, that goes without saying, but I find it interesting that the focus remains on women when the people being harassed have a much more specific features which explain why they are harassed and not others.

 

Well, exactly. People get harrassed for having opinions the internet hivemind deems "wrong", not because they're women. That said, the acquaintances I've talked about are definitely holding such opinions; hence, them being driven off by the threat of harrassment still counts as gamergaters chasing women away from the industry.

 

(For a given definition of "away".)