Feminism

[Meshugger]

 

 

This thread is painful.

The lazy version of saying "That's offensive".

 

Nah, more a nicer way of saying "you guys are dumb".

 

In short, from what I can gather this thread is made up of people who have not read any feminist texts; are ignorant of most if not all of the theoretical grounding; are unaware of the differences between the various schools of thought; are ignorant of the history of feminism; do not know which groups do and do not have significant influence and whose exposure to feminism is limited to some stupid posts made by 15 year olds on tumblr.

 

 

And now with that lack of investigation into the topic they feel they're equipped to critique "feminism".

 

 

Why hide behind false pleasantaries when you can say it in a direct langauge? Afraid of the sensibiities of anonymous people that you are most likely never going to meet? Pheh. Either say what you want to say or just shut the **** up. If you are expecting scholary discussion from laymen, then at least have the courtesy to point to some material that can be used as a framework or a template.   

 

Now that i got that out of my chest, please elaborate further. What's your opinion on Janice Fiamngo and Christina Hoff Summers? Are they the clowns of academic world? What should people read? Why is there a public misconception of feminism? Any opinion about the videos that i posted, just as an example?

Edited February 15, 2015 by Meshugger

[Blarghagh]

Why give a small radical group the power to take over the word feminism?  It is a powerful one with a long history, it shouldn't be easily tarnished by the whims of a vocal group on the internet.  

 

Also, why is this the point that many of you choose to draw the line in the sand?  The internet is filled with caustic racism and homophobia.  Why are tweets about misandry and misogyny such a focal point?   

 

Hold on, what? Who is drawing a line in the sand except you? At most, people are complaining about the sad state of something that was meant to be better. That's the entire thing that turns people off from it. Racism comes from racists, who aren't supposed to stand for equality because they're dumb. Homophobia comes rednecks, who don't stand for equality. Misandry comes from people self-proclaimed but also widely believed to be for equality. They're supposed to be better than this. Essentially, when a racist is a racist, it's according to plan. When a feminist is misandrist, it's not.

[Cultist]

Allow me to introdue you the current state of feminism and anti-feminism debate:

 

 

(...or not. - LC)

Edited February 15, 2015 by LadyCrimson
image removed

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Allow me to introdue you the current state of feminism and anti-feminism debate:

[ image removed ]

 

What the **** oh god the stupid it burns

 

IT BUUURRRRNSSSS USSSS

Edited February 15, 2015 by LadyCrimson

[Cultist]

What the **** oh god the stupid it burns

 

 

IT BUUURRRRNSSSS USSSS

 

You are welcome

[Barothmuk]

Why hide behind false pleasantaries when you can say it in a direct langauge?

I thought I was being pretty transparent.   

 

Now that i got that out of my chest, please elaborate further.

I'll remain broad and brief.

 

My "issue" with "Modern Feminism" is that it has been hijacked by neo-liberal ideology and morphed into a watered down movement that promotes a less offensive, individualist feminism focused on individual empowerment instead of mass liberation. Instead of seeking to dismantle and reconstruct existing oppressive systems they advocate "expressing agency" within these systems; one's culture, ideology, religion and beliefs are not to be critiqued but instead are "personal choices"; political praxis isn't about collective action or grassroots movements but instead limited to individual consumer choices (such as buying the next "Beyoncé" album or whatever millionaire is throwing around the feminist label this week); gender is not to abolished but "to be played with".

 

A good look at these changes provided by Carol Hanisch:

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2015 by Barothmuk

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Oh **** Cultist showed up.

 

[HoonDing]

8 million?

[Meshugger]

 

Why hide behind false pleasantaries when you can say it in a direct langauge?

I thought I was being pretty transparent.   

 

Now that i got that out of my chest, please elaborate further.

I'll remain broad and brief.

 

My "issue" with "Modern Feminism" is that it has been hijacked by neo-liberal ideology and morphed into a watered down movement that promotes a less offensive, individualist feminism focused on individual empowerment instead of mass liberation. Instead of seeking to dismantle and reconstruct existing oppressive systems they advocate "expressing agency" within these systems; one's culture, ideology, religion and beliefs are not to be critiqued but instead are "personal choices"; political praxis isn't about collective action or grassroots movements but instead limited to individual consumer choices (such as buying the next "Beyoncé" album or whatever millionaire is throwing around the feminist label this week); gender is not to abolished but "to be played with".

 

A good look at these changes provided by Carol Hanisch:

 

 

 

 

Thank you, much better. First question: What is the end game of feminism and what constitutes as an oppressive system and what should the oppressed do to not become the oppressors themselves according to Carol Hanish?

 

...and Cultist: Ben Garrison? Really?

Edited February 15, 2015 by Meshugger

[Fighter]

"Oh lookie you're no good enough to criticize mah feminism. Lookie at me inflating my chest prancing around like a rooster" *snort*

 

What is it you think people who have issues with feminism believe?

 

I believe in equal rights

I believe in equal pay

I believe women can do all the things men can do (when it doesn't involve weight lifting)

I even believe diversity in media is a good thing

 

It's always black and white with feminists. You must be a misogynist if you don't buy into what they do.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Fighter

[Oerwinde]

I'm just not a fan of the post modernist view of feelz before realz.

[Sarex]

I believe women can do all the things men can do (when it doesn't involve weight lifting)

 

Dude edit that out fast or **** will go down. I knocked over that beehive once, you wouldn't believe what came out.

[Longknife]

I've touched on this before, but....

 

I'm sorry, but I think you're living in the past if you insist on the term or a specific connotation. Language is a fluid thing. Meanings change. It's the natural way of things. This does not mean history is being forgotten and that history books one hundred years from now will not use feminism in a positive light when discussing Susan B. Anthony and other pivotal women. This does however mean the term is no longer needed, relevant or neccesary in the world we live in today. We are not perverting or ruining feminism by regarding it as bad today, those that insist on carrying the name and dragging it through the mud are. We are not obligated to constantly clarify and show a level of respect for....a ****ing word on the grounds of it being a word that once brought about positive change. If this were the case, words like "equality" and "feminism" would be magic spells that silence any dissenting opinion and banish them to another realm. No, we are reacting just as we should.

 

 

  As I've said before, I do not see the need for reverence of this term, nor a desire to be associated with it. Let it die. The feminism you praise in your initial post did it's job. It's dead now, at least within first-world countries. The "feminism" women claim to be utilizing today...? I dare say these feminists would be incapable of sitting across from Malala Yousafzai without feeling a quiet sense of shame. Why feminists like Emma Watson and Christine Sommers insist on clinging to the term when it's perverted and warped by the likes of tumblr, Sarkeesian, and anyone with a lifetime supply of radical hair dye is beyond me.

 

 

Just let the term die. Let it sleep. It's time to get new words to apply to the feminism we're encountering today, because it is nothing like the feminism you praise. The feminism you praise is now a chapter of history that will get it's due reverence in the history books, but this? This is a bunch of ****ing children hiding behind a term they don't even deserve to stand in the shadow of.

[Fighter]

Dude edit that out fast or **** will go down. I knocked over that beehive once, you wouldn't believe what came out.

 

Oh right, sorry...

 

"The belief that women are somehow a naturally weaker gender is a deeply ingrained socially constructed myth which of course is completely false." ~ Anita Sarkeesian

[Meshugger]

Before dwelving any further i do believe that there's no consensus on when biology ends and where cultural expression begins. 

 

Except for women being inheritly more valuable by just being, since they have a uterus. Men have to prove to women that they are something.

[teknoman2]

the problem with feminism is that it stopped promoting the social and financial indipendence of women (long ago women's lives depended on who they married) and became a "hate all the men" movement that promotes ideas like "abortion is fine if the fetus is male"... this is why people today call them feminazis

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I believe women can do all the things men can do (when it doesn't involve weight lifting)

 

Dude edit that out fast or **** will go down. I knocked over that beehive once, you wouldn't believe what came out.

 

Santourm?

 

Fighter is right at any rate. If you compare men and women who train similarly, the men will generally be able to lift more weight, as testosterone encourages muscle growth and males have about 7-8 times more than females on average.

[Longknife]

Biology is just another patriarchal concept though.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Biology is just another patriarchal concept though.

Concepts are inherently patriarchal.

[HoonDing]

#culturalmarxism

[Hurlshort]

"Oh lookie you're no good enough to criticize mah feminism. Lookie at me inflating my chest prancing around like a rooster" *snort*

 

What is it you think people who have issues with feminism believe?

 

I believe in equal rights

I believe in equal pay

I believe women can do all the things men can do (when it doesn't involve weight lifting)

I even believe diversity in media is a good thing

 

It's always black and white with feminists. You must be a misogynist if you don't buy into what they do.

 

Uh, your a feminist.  Seriously, it's not an insult.  

 

Why are you guys just rolling over and letting this tumblr thing and a small fry like Sarkeesian take over the word?  Christina Sommers, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Malala Yousafzai should be your examples of feminism.  They refer to themselves as feminists.  Meshugger posted a video earlier of Janice Fiamengo, and a professor, called herself a femininist, and them proceeded to lambast Fiamengo for her views.  

[Fighter]

By the dictionary definition of feminism even the MRAs that people throw hissy fits over are feminist too.

[Hurlshort]

I just want to clarify:

 

Feminism is now a bad thing because of Tumblr and Anita Saarkesian.

 

 

Is this correct?

[Oerwinde]

I just want to clarify:

 

Feminism is now a bad thing because of Tumblr and Anita Saarkesian.

 

 

Is this correct?

What has traditionally been described as feminism isn't a bad thing. The term has been poisoned by the awful people who use it to describe themselves though. People associate the man hating my way or you're an awful person who doesn't deserve to live type people with the term now. When someone says feminist that's the kind of people that come to mind. When people like Sommers has to describe herself as an "equity feminist" so she isn't associated with the more common interpretation it says something about the perception.

[Blarghagh]

It's not really small fry like Sarkeesian, Hurl. It's not tumblr blogs. Those are just highly visible currently, but it's been a serious undercurrent from the high level organisational leaders, media makers and college professors for a while now.

 

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." - Catharine MacKinnon, legal scholar and professor from Yale and Michigan.

 

"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." - Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College.

 

"We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage." - Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor in Chief

 

"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." - Sheila Cronin, National Organization for Women

 

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it." - Barbara Jordan, Former Congresswoman.

 

"All men are rapists and that’s all they are" - Marilyn French, Author and Advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign

 

Even Gloria Steinem herself is a horrible transphobe, claiming "Transsexuals are paying an extreme tribute to the power of sex roles. In order to set their real human personalities free, they surgically mutilate their own bodies..."

 

I still identify as a feminist - I know these women don't own the word and these views do not represent the majority, but these are not some 14 year old nobodies with nasty blogs and their words and action create a certain public perception and it's ridiculous to act surprised that feminism has become unsympathetic to the public as a result - let alone after such nonsense as "Shirtgate" and the horrible "guilty until proven innocent" of the UVA Rape Hoax scandal. For every Christina H. Sommers (who, as Oerwinde pointed out, has distanced herself from the "whole" of feminism by identifying as a specific subgroup, "equity feminism") there's seems to be two Dworkins publishing books about how men need to be culled from society. It's not a "small group" of radicals - it's not the majority, but it's a significant group and more importantly, they are incredibly loud.

 

Think of it this way, what you think about when you see a Swastika? Is it the sacred hindu symbol that is still in use today? I doubt it. It's easier to remember horrible crap.

Edited February 16, 2015 by TrueNeutral