Balance Discussion

[wanderon]

It will be interesting to see how much detail is spelled out in the manuals and guides when we get them

[Luckmann]

I'm a huge Josh fan, but this kind of information seems like it should be available in the game, and not from private / SA messages.

 

But.. why?

[Voss]

It will be interesting to see how much detail is spelled out in the manuals and guides when we get them

I expect the guides to either not cover it or be hilariously wrong.  Printing requirements + code revision up to day 0 patch = not in sync.

[ushas]

 

I have the correct attack speed formulas

 

There is still a global recovery mult of x1.2, but recovery penalties for style were reduced

 

Assume 10 Dex, No armor

 

1H Fast, single = 20 frame animation, 36 frame recovery 

1H Normal, single = 30 frame animation, 54 frame recovery

2H = 30 frame animation, 54 frame recovery

Dual wield fast = 20 frame animation, 24 frame recovery, 20 frame animation, 24 frame recovery

Dual wield normal = 30 frame animation, 36 frame recovery, 20 frame animation, 36 frame recovery

 

 

The non-dual wield (1H, weapon & shield, 2H) recovery is 50% longer. There's also the global recovery modifier, which is 1.2. 30 * 1.2 = 36 frames. 45*1.2 = 54 frames.

 

 

Thanks. Does this mean 1H single is also speed for 1H + shield? I thought there was originally some recovery time penalty for weapon & shield style. Sorry for being probably ignorant now.

[aeonsim]

 

I have the correct attack speed formulas

 

There is still a global recovery mult of x1.2, but recovery penalties for style were reduced

 

Assume 10 Dex, No armor

 

1H Fast, single = 20 frame animation, 36 frame recovery 

1H Normal, single = 30 frame animation, 54 frame recovery

2H = 30 frame animation, 54 frame recovery

Dual wield fast = 20 frame animation, 24 frame recovery, 20 frame animation, 24 frame recovery

Dual wield normal = 30 frame animation, 36 frame recovery, 20 frame animation, 36 frame recovery

 

 

The non-dual wield (1H, weapon & shield, 2H) recovery is 50% longer. There's also the global recovery modifier, which is 1.2. 30 * 1.2 = 36 frames. 45*1.2 = 54 frames.

 

Over 20 seconds, assuming no armor, 10 Dex.

 

0 Sec = Attack A

2.2 Sec = Attack B

4.4 Sec = Attack A

6.6 Sec = Attack B

8.8 Sec = Attack A

11 Sec = Attack B

13.2 Sec = Attack A

15.4 Sec = Attack B

17.6 Sec = Attack A

19.8 Sec = Attack B

 

Weapon A attacks 5 times.

 

0 Sec = Attack A

2.8 Sec = Attack A

5.6 Sec = Attack A

8.4 Sec = Attack A

11.2 Sec = Attack A

14 Sec = Attack A

16.8 Sec = Attack A

19.6 Sec = Attack A

 

Weapon A attacks 8 times.

 

 

So Bows and Guns are what 2H? Or does the hunting bow count as 1H fast or Normal?

[ushas]

So Bows and Guns are what 2H? Or does the hunting bow count as 1H fast or Normal?

 

 

That's interesting question. I wonder about the 2H 50% longer recovery...

 

In game there are these vague data for speeds:

 

Fast:                    fast 1H weapons, Wand, Sceptre

Average:              normal 1 H weapons, Rod, War Bow, Hunting Bow

Slow:                    2H weapons, crossbow

Very slow:            Pistol, Blunderbuss, Arbalest

Extremely Slow:  Arquebus

 

Now, does this also take into account recovery time? (and reload time?)

As 2H are in the slow category compare to 1H, I would say yes, but isn't there different speed between bows?

Edited March 18, 2015 by ushas

[aeonsim]

Unfortunately it is just x1.2 reload speed, so 20% faster. So it is about 12-15% mroe DPS for pistol.

 

I'm more interested in other weapons though - it would seem that gunner, being a % speed upgrade should favor faster weapons which in turn reload more often.

 

Can a bow or crossbow be turned into a machingun  by using Gunner and 20 dex? - The Munchkin within me needs to know.

 

So there is also a ranger talent called Fast Aim which reduces reload time by 50% if you combine that with Gunner you've got a reload time reduction of 70% plus a faster attack rate.

[dunehunter]

Inspiring Triumph seems to be a quite weak passive ability. Since paladins are not a heavy dps class, its harder for pal to kill an enemy. Secondly, compare to 'black path' from bleak paladins which works similarly, this ability seems to not even reach the power level of a talent.

 

Marked prey and Sworn enemy should have instant cast speed.

Edited March 19, 2015 by dunehunter

[Shdy314]

There are a number of talents that are... situational at best.

[Veevoir]

 

Unfortunately it is just x1.2 reload speed, so 20% faster. So it is about 12-15% mroe DPS for pistol.

 

I'm more interested in other weapons though - it would seem that gunner, being a % speed upgrade should favor faster weapons which in turn reload more often.

 

Can a bow or crossbow be turned into a machingun  by using Gunner and 20 dex? - The Munchkin within me needs to know.

 

So there is also a ranger talent called Fast Aim which reduces reload time by 50% if you combine that with Gunner you've got a reload time reduction of 70% plus a faster attack rate.

 

Thanks! Need to test that. This may end in a viable ranger build

 

"The turboranger"

Edited March 19, 2015 by Veevoir

[Luckmann]

 

Unfortunately it is just x1.2 reload speed, so 20% faster. So it is about 12-15% mroe DPS for pistol.

 

I'm more interested in other weapons though - it would seem that gunner, being a % speed upgrade should favor faster weapons which in turn reload more often.

 

Can a bow or crossbow be turned into a machingun  by using Gunner and 20 dex? - The Munchkin within me needs to know.

 

So there is also a ranger talent called Fast Aim which reduces reload time by 50% if you combine that with Gunner you've got a reload time reduction of 70% plus a faster attack rate.

 

Man, I might have to port that Talent over to another class. Not a fan of the Ranger, but playing a gunman with 20 Dexterity, Fast Aim and Gunner is looking pretty appealing.

[dukefx]

Where are you getting that Fast Aim from?

[morhilane]

Where are you getting that Fast Aim from?

 

It's Swift Aim, a Ranger's modal.

[dukefx]

 

Where are you getting that Fast Aim from?

 

It's Swift Aim, a Ranger's modal.

 

aeonsim referred to it as talent, not ability, and called it "Fast Aim", not Swift Aim. That's why I'm asking if there is a new talent I'm not aware of.

[morhilane]

 

 

Where are you getting that Fast Aim from?

 

It's Swift Aim, a Ranger's modal.

 

aeonsim referred to it as talent, not ability, and called it "Fast Aim", not Swift Aim. That's why I'm asking if there is a new talent I'm not aware of.

 

 

 

I didn't see any Fast Aim in the latest BB for the ranger which I leveled up to level 8, so I took it to mean Swift Aim (which is not a 50% bonus either but 20%).

[roguelike]

Spell damage by level:

 

 

 

 

Spell damage by level with the top spells chopped off so it's a little bit more readable.

 

 

 

 

A couple notes on spells of interest that got hidden:

Twin Stone(1 hit) is under Soul Ignition.  Wall of Fire is below Wicked Briars, Frost Blast is under Embrace the Earth Talon.  Wall of Thorns, Wall of Force, and Ninagauth's Bitter Mooring are under Relentless Storm.

 

Fun Class Facts:

 

* Guess what, Druids are really good at dealing damage.

 

* Wizards are completely carried by their level 1 and 2 spells.  Also they really fall off against higher DR enemies.

 

* Ciphers are bad unless you really, really like their sustainable resource system and 5 extra accuracy.  Mostly they are just bad.  They are single target dps that, at many levels, have less potential single target damage than a priest.  Also 2 of their 3 best damage spells are AoE beams.  If you like beams, you should play a cipher.

 

Fun Spell Facts:

 

* Hail Storm at 85 damage (on the chart it's not 85 because of graze compensation) is the highest single and aoe instant damage in the game.

 

* Embrace the Earth Talon is also absurd, a 15 seconds petrify that comes with 65 damage.

 

* Minoletta's Precisely Piercing Burst is a tiny, melee range burst that doesn't pierce DR like the description claims, despite there being at least a dozen other spells that do pierce DR that don't even mention it.

 

* Trap spells are estimated as if they had +10 accuracy, not the the absurd +41 they seem to be getting right now.

 

* Amplified Thrust on paper seems like the most bafflingly useless spell in the game.  If I wanted to do 15 damage to one target opposed by deflection, I would just shoot them.

 

Fun disclaimer:

 

As always, these damage values are for entertainment purposes only.  Any resemblance they have to actual values in the game Pillars of Eternity is purely coincidental and probably a mistake.

 

 

[Shevek]

Ciphers shouldnt have too much spell damage since the dont rely on per rest stuff and they have a persistent weapon dmg buff.

[Sensuki]

Wizards are completely carried by their level 1 and 2 spells.

Combusting Wounds and Kalakoth's Minor Blights are pretty good too I suppose.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Eh I think that chart has some problems because it isn't accounting for aoe vs single target, benefits of damage types, and cast speed. My cipher has done immense amounts of damage with soul shock, for example, because it is a fast casting aoe that does shock damage which some armor is weak against.

 

Edit: also amplified thrust, while I agree it is bad, does have a cc component. Lots of cipher abilities are either more intended as cc, do raw damage, have fast cast times, or some combination.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Sensuki]

Have they nerfed that ability yet? It was nuts in v435 (Soul Shock).

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Have they nerfed that ability yet? It was nuts in v435 (Soul Shock).

Shhhhhhhhhh

[Luckmann]

Have they nerfed that ability yet? It was nuts in v435 (Soul Shock).

Every time you say something works well or too well, Sensuki, Sawyer kills a puppy and restricts a mechanic. Stop it. D:

[morhilane]

 

Have they nerfed that ability yet? It was nuts in v435 (Soul Shock).

Every time you say something works well or too well, Sensuki, Sawyer kills a puppy and restricts a mechanic. Stop it. D:

 

 

Strangely, he has left the Druid alone despite Sensuki and many others saying how OP it is...but I think that's because Tim Cain isn't letting him doing it.

[roguelike]

 

Combusting Wounds and Kalakoth's Minor Blights are pretty good too I suppose.

 

I assumed that Combusting Wounds was bugged.  None of the other similar DoTs seem to stack.  

 

I don't know if Soul Shock is good because it's fast or if it's doing more damage than it should be or what, but on paper it doesn't seem that great.  They fixed the Mind Lance bug where it did a bunch of extra damage, maybe something similar is still on Soul Shock, I dunno.

 

Eh I think that chart has some problems because it isn't accounting for aoe vs single target, benefits of damage types, and cast speed. My cipher has done immense amounts of damage with soul shock, for example, because it is a fast casting aoe that does shock damage which some armor is weak against.

 

Edit: also amplified thrust, while I agree it is bad, does have a cc component. Lots of cipher abilities are either more intended as cc, do raw damage, have fast cast times, or some combination.

 

Yeah, obviously there's a ton of stuff to consider like positioning requirements and cc and a character's overall kit, but none of that stuff seems to be terribly well balanced for anyway.  Some stuff, like Silent Scream, is obviously better than if you just looked at it on the chart.  But most lots of stuff, like Chain Lightning or Amplified Wave or Noxious Burst or Burst of Summer Flame is just garbage that doesn't fulfill any sort of role.  You shouldn't have to concoct a situation where your wizard is surrounded by enemies in order to make a fifth level spell like Torrent of Flame finally becomes marginally better than a first level fan of flames.

Edited March 19, 2015 by roguelike

[Odd Hermit]

I think the main problem with druids is simply that their frost spells specifically are doing too much damage for how easy they are to place/how large their AoEs are.

 

Fan of Flames does about as much damage as Blizzard, but it's a cone and short range while Blizzard is easy to use and hit a lot of targets at any range.

 

Hail Storm is mostly just an even bigger and higher damage Blizzard.

 

 

Nerfing those two alone 15-20% maybe, if they want to be tentative about it, would bring Druids down a notch.

 

I also think many spells, as roguelike says above, are just not worth ever casting over others. Right now there are some very obvious choices and you spend most of your spells/rest on those. If you took away 4-5 of Druid's outstanding spells they'd be in almost as bad a spot as Wizards, just... still more durable and versatile.

 

Edit: Also, Wizards have to be too close for how fragile they are for a lot of their spells. The range limits and AoE sizes on Wizard spells are laughably inconvenient relative to Druid, especially since Druids are substantially less fragile.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Odd Hermit