Balance Discussion

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

30% of 30 is 9. The game calculates the speed of things in frames, and the animation speed is 30 FPS. There is no such thing has a fraction of a frame either, it has to be a whole number

 

30 frames = 1 second.

 

The reason the Greatsword recovery is 51 is because it's 21 (base - 30%) + 30 (two handed penalty)

ah, OK, it was the two handed penalty that was confusing me. Same penalty apply to missile weapons?

[Sensuki]

I don't think so, I believe they have their own reload times AFAIK, but I'm not sure. Josh has never given the recovery/reload speeds for ranged weapons. You could ask him.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Heh, I'm not even sure how to phrase the question intelligently. At root I'm trying to figure out if a ranged character is better off maxing Dex and using two fast one-handers for melee backup weapons, or maxing Might for single heavy hits and taking a two-hander.

 

In practice I suspect might will be the better choice just because of time lost due to gaps in the RTWP system etc. Your characters spend a certain amount of time sitting around idle just by nature of things, and to a certain point high Dex will just mean more time lost sitting idle.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Odd Hermit]

Heh, I'm not even sure how to phrase the question intelligently. At root I'm trying to figure out if a ranged character is better off maxing Dex and using two fast one-handers for melee backup weapons, or maxing Might for single heavy hits and taking a two-hander.

 

Dual wield needs more talents to do good damage in my experience. 2h is better damage if you're not spending a talent on a modal for melee on a primarily ranged character.

 

Savage Attack and 2 hand style are nice but you'll still hit through DR with a high might character w/out them.

Using two 1h weapons without Vulnerable Attack OTOH seems like a bad idea as DR will mitigate a lot of your damage. Especially if you don't have high might.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[roguelike]

Unless they've changed things up, offensive characters are probably better off maxing all three offensive stats.  Defensive stats just don't do anything for you.

 

Also I just want to point out that it's dumb that +1% attack speed can give anywhere from +0.26%(arquebus) to +1%(dual wielding) actual attacks.

[axedice]

What is the deal with the temple guards in Skaen Underground Temple with 150+ deflection? 

[Veevoir]

What is the deal with the temple guards in Skaen Underground Temple with 150+ deflection? 

This was reported as a bug in previous version, guess those guys really can't part with their defenses.

[etagloc]

many of the ability upgrades dosn't seem to be worth it.

 

Frenzy
Frenzy: the base is a really cool burst +4 str +4con and extra attack speed.
but the upgrade gives you an extra +2str +2con, and it costs you a full skill point. it just isnt worth it: Since the ability is once pr. encounter the upgrade should include a duration bonus aswell.

Wild sprint

again a cool base ability that lets you reposition yourself and try to take out an archer or a mage in the back. + speed and +deflection and lets you ignore enemys. the upgrade give you extra speed?..... why? you already have more speed, and enough duration to get to were you want to go, more speed isn't usefull, you should either get more deflection or more pr.rest if you choose to upgrade it, or something third.

 

[Sensuki]

Arbalests and Arquebuses got nerfed through the roof to the v364 version where they only did 30-40 damage or something (in the current build v480).

[Veevoir]

I hope Blunderbusses are still ok, they are the most fun*


^{*I really hope this fun thing won't draw attention from JES}

[roguelike]

Arbalests and Arquebuses got nerfed through the roof to the v364 version where they only did 30-40 damage or something (in the current build v480).

Eh, I think they're still basically the same.  They both gained some reload time and lost a few points of damage, but they're still by and far the best ranged weapons.   The real loser is every other ranged weapon which there's still no reason to pick (except the blunderbuss, which I don't have the stats of, but I think is still good if built for).

 

For some reason the crossbow ate a reload nerf.  Wands and pistols also lost their one-handed bonus that they were never supposed to have in the first place but I thought was cool.

[Veevoir]

 

Arbalests and Arquebuses got nerfed through the roof to the v364 version where they only did 30-40 damage or something (in the current build v480).

Eh, I think they're still basically the same.  They both gained some reload time and lost a few points of damage, but they're still by and far the best ranged weapons.   The real loser is every other ranged weapon which there's still no reason to pick (except the blunderbuss, which I don't have the stats of, but I think is still good if built for).

 

For some reason the crossbow ate a reload nerf.  Wands and pistols also lost their one-handed bonus that they were never supposed to have in the first place but I thought was cool.

 

After some testing: Blunderbuss also ate a nerf, it is 6-9x8 now with -10 to accuracy (still). But it gained 4 DR (did it have it before?), so it is still beastly.

 

Edited March 13, 2015 by Veevoir

[Odd Hermit]

Unless they've changed things up, offensive characters are probably better off maxing all three offensive stats.  Defensive stats just don't do anything for you.

 

Also I just want to point out that it's dumb that +1% attack speed can give anywhere from +0.26%(arquebus) to +1%(dual wielding) actual attacks.

 

Yeah this is why I wish more of the combat effectiveness was shifted toward talents and we got more of them and more to choose from. Blanket % bonuses just end up all over the place.

[roguelike]

Here is a handy chart to help folks remember how much attack speed, attack speed is worth.

 

 

 

 

[Veevoir]

I did a little testing with guns - does +speed from dex affect reloading/recovery speeds?

I made a lvl4  20 dex character with gunner/penetrating shot and he was able to do 2 shots from blunderbuss in 14 seconds.

Same build, but 10 dexterity was about 18 seconds.

That's 4 seconds shaved off, but it seems that the answer is no - the time gained was on faster attack speeds.

[Sensuki]

Okay so I've tried making multiple interrupt builds in this patch and ...

 

It is bad, like really bad. I think it's because of the dependency on the attack resolution but interrupting is just super unreliable. Screw that - I'll take a consistent bonus such as Might or Dexterity every time, thankyou.

[roguelike]

I did a little testing with guns - does +speed from dex affect reloading/recovery speeds?

 

I made a lvl4  20 dex character with gunner/penetrating shot and he was able to do 2 shots from blunderbuss in 14 seconds.

 

Same build, but 10 dexterity was about 18 seconds.

 

That's 4 seconds shaved off, but it seems that the answer is no - the time gained was on faster attack speeds.

 

Yeah, attack speed is a % increase based on your weapon attack animation that reduces both your attack animation time and your recovery animation time.  Dex is only benefitting attack/recovery speed and gunner is only benefiting reload speed.  

 

I think the current attack speeds look like this:

 

 

The melee speeds are confirmed by Josh I think, but the ranged weapons and spells are derived and may be  wrong.  Crossbow reload speed in particular I'm not sure if it's 285 or 290 or 295.  I'm bad at counting frames.  Also dual swords seem to have a bug that makes them lose a frame or two at odd times, they clearly fall out of sync with single dagger though if you watch long enough.

Edited March 14, 2015 by roguelike

[Veevoir]

That chart gave me an idea.. and yep, 2x mace wielding dex-maxed rogue is what I was looking for. Reckless assault+penetrating style+2 weapons style - plain and simple murder.

I'm starting to doubt in all my tries to make firearms into fun build. For a level 4 character - Blunderbuss build drops an enemy each 10 sec (if sneak attack, but must stay in one spot (very bad if someone gets interested). The lack of mobility kills rogue, so no guns for him.

Not talking about 4xblunderbuss build because weapon switching seems really inconsistent.

 

Proper dualwield does that in 5-7 (tested on Merdeth) and is mobile (of course once engaged or ganged up upon you are done). However needs more support form team to produce sneak-allowing effects.

So if anyone is looking for strong DPS build and is patient enough to micro - mace them!

Edited March 14, 2015 by Veevoir

[Sensuki]

I don't think all of those values are accurate, fairly close though.

[Veevoir]

They don't have to, they have to be accurate in relation to each other

Still there is interesting stuff here, like the fact that dual wield speeds up attack. Ability use is missing though - and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me using offensive ability has a different attack speed than current weapon attack.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Veevoir

[Whipstitch]

Okay so I've tried making multiple interrupt builds in this patch and ...

 

It is bad, like really bad. I think it's because of the dependency on the attack resolution but interrupting is just super unreliable. Screw that - I'll take a consistent bonus such as Might or Dexterity every time, thankyou.

Pretty much. The builds I've tried that get the most mileage out of interrupts are builds that just happen to toss out a lot of attacks. Honestly, my Dex, Swift Strikes and Two Weapon Fighting monk didn't even really give a crap about the interrupts he was scoring anyway given that monks get far more reliable CC via class abilities.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Whipstitch

[roguelike]

Today's public service announcement reminds everyone* not to take penetrating shot.

 

 

EDIT: Now in seconds for real.  I think?  Dividing things is hard.

 

 

 

Penetrating Shot: A talent that makes your weapon about as good as an arquebus, unless the enemy has more than 5 DR, in which case it quickly becomes much worse.

 

*Exceptions include people who use blunderbusses or may use blunderbusses and people who have some preexisting reason to benefit from faster weapons.  Consult your doctor before taking penetrating shot.

Edited March 15, 2015 by roguelike

[Sensuki]

I've only been using Blunderbusses this build because the nerfs to the others just make them not worth using. Bows haven't been worth using for several builds.

 

You need to label that table better though.

 

How does that chart scale with dexterity, would 20 Dexterity (+30% action speed) make any difference to the numbers ?

 

I also imagine that wearing armor just makes it much, much worse.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Sensuki

[roguelike]

Hunting bows seem to be the biggest winners from 20 dex, they go from something like +20% damage against 5 DR over an arquebus to +35%.  At 10 DR they go from doing -33% compared to a arquebus to -25%.   Breakeven happens at 8 DR instead of 7 DR.

 

If I didn't know any better, I would say it's not exactly terrible.  +35% damage for one talent seems pretty good.  But there's too much stuff that benefits from alpha striking and stacking damage multipliers to make me not suspicious.

 

And yeah, wearing armor completely crushes everything that isn't an arquebus because its reload time is so long compared to its recovery.

Edited March 15, 2015 by roguelike

[Sensuki]

A chart with how much dex increases bow DPS would be cool