I have a bad feeling about KOTOR 2.....

[Gromnir]

you is preaching to the choir 'bout hk-47.

 

http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html...346860&forum=76

 

nevertheless, the awards heaped at hk-47's metallic feat is substantial, including awards from peers.

 

http://archive.gamespy.com/gdc2004/awards/

 

"for better or worse," hk-47 was VERY popular with fans, critics and fellow developers.

 

"so yes, it was basic stuff....but really, it fits well with the mood of Planescape in general, and sets the game apart from 'here's the bad guys, KILL 'EM!', as is practiced in god only knows how many RPGS......KOTOR included. "

 

funny, but we thoughts that kotor was 'bout redemption... much like ps:t.

 

"For me, it was the defining moment of the game....especially since I finally got to see the ol' Practical incarnation get what was coming to him for so long."

 

*gasp*

 

sorta a "KILL 'EM!" attitude, no?

 

nevertheless, is obvious that reasonable minds may differ. is not so clear-cut an issue as some might have suggested.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Opus131]

Yup. That was the PST's biggest weakness as far the writing was concerned. People brag about the amount of text. however, what they forget you probably could have cut a good protion of that and the point would have been just as clear, and it would flowed much better.

Like, say, Bioware's writing ?!?

 

Frankly, i'll take Torment's over-floressant prose over that.

[Cantousent]

The writing is great. It isn't perfect, is it?

[Volourn]

Opus thinks so.

 

KOTOR's writing is far from perfect. i never said otherwise; but that's cool if he thinks PST writing is eprfect. Even though it's not even close.

 

One of the most basic tenants of writing is to keep it. And, no, that doesn't mean dumb it down. It means, write what you mean in as clear and concise as possible. Basiclaly, words are preicous so don't waste them. This happened more than once in PST.

 

Prime Example: The fool who spouted the hostry of the Blood War. That could have been shaved entire paragraghs and be true to its message instead we got a bunch of nonsenhical prose that added nothing to the story.

 

Of course, there are examples in KOTOR that shows that that game also needed some improvement.

 

Take the old man's story with the Evil Warrior tm's story. Why? Because E tm's story wer elong winded ones that added nothing to his character or the tale he was trying to tell. OM tm's stories had a clear, concise [purpsoe. He wins, EW tm loses.

[Gromnir]

Yup. That was the PST's biggest weakness as far the writing was concerned. People brag about the amount of text. however, what they forget you probably could have cut a good protion of that and the point would have been just as clear, and it would flowed much better.

Like, say, Bioware's writing ?!?

 

Frankly, i'll take Torment's over-floressant prose over that.

must always come back to fact that kotor sold... and ps:t did not. we can go back and forth with blame games and excuses, but try to recall what we has heard from bis/obsidian developers in past when they talks 'bout amount of character development/interaction and text we will be seeing from them in torn, jefferson, iwd2, and fo3.

 

"there won't be as much as you saw in ps:t."

 

the above comment we seen over and over was not meant as a criticism of their own projects, but rather as a way to reassure potential fans. bis developers clearly was under the impression that one of the things that hurt ps:t was the 'mount of text.

 

bioware, following bg1, came to conclusion that crpg fans did not mind dialogue, but that long segments o' dialogue was tending to result in folks just trying to scan quickly through such dialogues, or not reading at all. so, why write stuff that most folks ain't gonna read? bio instituted a guideline whereby they tried to keep individual dialogue options to no more than 3-lines. was obviously not a hard rule, but seems to have served them well. and

[The Situationist]

Basiclaly, words are preicous

Yes, they are. <_<

[Ivan the Terrible]

Take the old man's story with the Evil Warrior tm's story. Why? Because E tm's story wer elong winded ones that added nothing to his character or the tale he was trying to tell. OM tm's stories had a clear, concise [purpsoe. He wins, EW tm loses.

I try not to be a grammar Nazi, but I draw the line when I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[Sammael]

must always come back to fact that kotor sold... and ps:t did not.

Stop... moving... away... from... the... subject...

 

I am sure Salvatore novels and Dragonlance crap and Fabio and whatnot sell a lot more than Nobel-prize writers. Does that tell us anything about the quality of writing? Admit it, Grommy.

 

As for Torment vs. KotOR, I replay Torment on a regular basis, at least once every year. I was bored to tears with KotOR's "cinematic combat" and the pitiful implementation of the Star Wars d20 system. The only fun thing I can recall from the game was the card game... Pazak, or whatever. I never even bothered finishing it, just as I never bothered finishing ToEE.

 

Chris Avellone wrote one area for IWD2, and that was Targos, perhaps the most developed city area in any IE game (excluding Torment). When you hear people talking about IWD2, you'll notice that most mention Targos as the most memorable place from the game. Indeed, if the whole game were made to be as detailed and in a similar style as Targos, it would have been a much better game. But such is the fate when developing 9-month (3+3+3) games with outdated BIOWARE engines that were extremely poor to begin with.

 

As for FO2, I still consider it more enjoyable than FO1 (if not exactly a better game). Contrary to what people obviously think, MCA was only one of the designers on the game, and I think it's a damn shame Tim & co. fled IPLY before it was over, because I tend to think that a lot of the pop-culture crap that got blamed on MCA and remaining BIS devs was their idea.

[The Situationist]

For example, Old Man

[Cantousent]

For example, Old Man

[Gorth]

I hate it, by the way... philosophy.

Why ?

[Ivan the Terrible]

I hate it, by the way... philosophy.

Why ?

"Philosophy is to the real world what masturbation is to sex."

[Cantousent]

I'd give you a long rant concerning philosophy, but I'd rather just point out that MCA, like most folks, has probably spent a lot of his time honing his skills, learning from his mistakes, taking note of his successes, and planning great things for the future. Since we don't have any choice anyhow, we might as well give him a chance to make the best game he can. No doubt, that's his desire.

[AlanC9]

I am sure Salvatore novels and Dragonlance crap and Fabio and whatnot sell a lot more than Nobel-prize writers. Does that tell us anything about the quality of writing?

Actually, books that win the Nobel Prize are typically elitist crap and don't stand the test of time. But I'll take the metaphor on its own terms.

 

The issue is the author's intent. If you're trying to write a bestseller and come up with a literary masterpiece instead, you've screwed up. (I can think of a couple of writers who've managed to work this trick the other way round, like Tom Wolfe; at least they end up well-compensated.)

 

Whatever our opinions of the relative merits of Planescape and KotOR, I think it's absolutely clear that Obsidian would much rather make the next KotOR than the next Planescape.

[Gromnir]

"I am sure Salvatore novels and Dragonlance crap and Fabio and whatnot sell a lot more than Nobel-prize writers. Does that tell us anything about the quality of writing? Admit it, Grommy. "

 

admit what? dragonlance does not sell more than gabriel garcia marquez books. try to find out how many copies of "one hundred years of solitude," has been sold over the years. recognized good lit does not mean it is poor selling.

 

if john updike wants to take 4 years to write a novel, more power to him... but how much does it cost to develop a game and how many folks is employed in such an endeavor? how much of a shelf life does a game got in reality?

 

a novelist can do whatever the hell they want with their time... they can live off of top ramen and jolt for four years while they write the Great American Novel. the novelist with integrity can does a james joyce and refuse to cave to publisher wishes... refuse to make changes to "dubliners." wait an additional bunch of years finding a publisher who will share vision. heck, a novelist in these days can self-publish if they wants... true self-publishing.

 

games is different. is a reality of the business that computer games has got to be popular or folks is out of money... and they can't be developed with notion that maybe 5 or 10 years from now they might be popular. publishers ain't gonna make a game as a prestige piece just to garner good will from industry. can name the independent developers that can afford to self-publish on one hand

[Karzak]

KotOR sold primarily because it is star wars.

[roguefrog]

^ :D

 

 

So regardless, even if they made a Planescape game modeled after KotOR...it would still be screwed

[Gromnir]

fact is that most star wars games in recent years has not been particularly great sellers.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shdy314]

That's true putting SW on any game really helps sales. It didn't hurt it was also a great game though.

[Karzak]

fact is that most star wars games in recent years has not been particularly great sellers.

 

HA! Good Fun!

They have sold far better than they would have otherwise.

 

jedi acadimey and outcast have very strong sales BTW.

[Azarkon]

admit what? dragonlance does not sell more than gabriel garcia marquez books. try to find out how many copies of "one hundred years of solitude," has been sold over the years. recognized good lit does not mean it is poor selling.

 

But did Harry Potter?

 

good games can be popular... the thing is that developers, unlike authors of lit, cannot dedicate themselves to making games w/o concern for whether their work will be commercially viable. is just a reality of the industry... and truth to tell, it ain't that much of a burden.

 

It seems to me that it'd be a real burden if your manager or market analyst thought he or she knew what people wanted and then forced you to make a game based on those (often wrong) assumptions. Like many things in real life, it's not so much the cold hard facts, but what people perceive those cold hard facts to be, that create obstacles between commercial interest and artistic license.

 

But then again I'm often reminded of one of Emerson's quotes (at least I think it was Emerson): "Genius is always sufficiently the enemy of genius by over-influence." It's not so much that the market analysts have the wrong ideas, but that they have the right ones and can exactly pinpoint what people want, and in the process, defeats the very drive for originality underlying true masterpieces.

 

Actually, books that win the Nobel Prize are typically elitist crap and don't stand the test of time.

 

Part of what makes a book stand the test of time are its awards and its perceived value among literary circles, actually, but I strongly disagree with the notion that works of literary value must stand the test of time in order to be masterpieces. Frankly put, most people nowadays don't read books, and many of those who do only read junk that grants them instant gratification. To judge a book by its reception by these people simply defeats the whole purpose of writing literature, so in a way good literature *has* to be exclusive, *has* to be elitist, because otherwise the best literature would be something like Stephen King's horror novels (not his "greats", but his "horrors"), and American society would become truly shallow, indeed.

[Gromnir]

most folks thought jedi academy was a good game... aside from the fact that it was a star wars game. galactic battle grounds, on the other hand, despite fact that it had great pedigree of engine AND star wars label did not sell...

 

http://www.gamespot.com/company/lucasarts.html

 

looks like a 50/50 proposition that a star wars game will pan out for lucas... interplay did better than that and they has not fared well.

 

might be a better example to point to crappy games that sold well... could then attribute success to star wars label.

 

am not suggesting that star wars label was a non-factor in kotor success, but to simply state, "KotOR sold primarily because it is star wars." seems naive at best.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Karzak]

might be a better example to point to crappy games that sold well... could then attribute success to star wars label.

Nope, its sufficiant to note that KotOR and other SW games have sold better than they should have otherwise.

 

KotOR was also released on the crest od SW D20, even the SW lable isn't a constant.

 

There are other factors as well, the lack of any competition for instance.

 

KotOR is an OK game, not as good as max paine, and certainly in the classification of CRPG's its pretty poor, its really an adventure game.

 

SW lable is a huge boost to sales. It makes a mediocre game sell like a good one and a good one sell like a great one.

[Gromnir]

"But did Harry Potter?"

 

did harry potter what? sell well? sure. what does that have to do with "one hundred years of solitude," or any number of updike best sellers? popularity does not preclude quality.

 

"It's not so much that the market analysts have the wrong ideas, but that they have the right ones and can exactly pinpoint what people want, and in the process, defeats the very drive for originality underlying true masterpieces."

 

for chrissakes... you does realize that we is talking 'bout games, right? just say the word, "Games." does we even have to acknowledge that a "game" should be fun? creating a masterpiece or a work of art has to be a secondary or tertiary concern at best. if a majority of folks not find a game to be fun, then we suspect that there is something wrong with it, don't you agree?

 

"To judge a book by its reception by these people simply defeats the whole purpose of writing literature, so in a way good literature *has* to be exclusive, *has* to be elitist, because otherwise the best literature would be something like Stephen King's horror novels (not his "greats", but his "horrors"), and American society would become truly shallow, indeed."

 

ridiculous. the notion that literature must be elitist to be good is ridiculous. if a work of literature must be dismissed just 'cause it is popular, then we think you might be surprised by just how many Great Works of lit actually was very popular when released. should popularity be the only measure for lit? no, of course not, but popularity not preclude quality neither.

 

even so, these comments 'bout quality of lit continues to ignore the fact that games is a different beast. is more like architecture we s'pose. building a cathedral or monument or office building is an expensive undertaking that requires the labor of many peoples, and inherent in the design is gonna be practical concerns... will have to be functional. heck, buildings is even less needing to bend to practical concerns than does games. a game lasts for how long... gots how much of a shelf life? some millionaire/billionaire might invest in a building as a way to gain immortality, but what kinda person is gonna do something similar with a computer game that will be largely forgotten w/i a few years?

 

"Nope, its sufficiant to note that KotOR and other SW games have sold better than they should have otherwise. "

 

hogwash.

 

http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/awards/

 

large numbers (if not a majority,) of fans, critics and other developers seems to agree that kotor was a good or even great game... but krazy thinks it sold better than it should have. am not convinced.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Karzak]

large numbers (if not a majority,) of fans, critics and other developers seems to agree that kotor was a good or even great game...

Of course, a large number of fans, critics and other developers are SW fans. Also, KotOR had no competition in its catagory. Even grommy could win a beauty contest if he was the only one there.

 

Poor grommy not realize that SW is a marketable lable with its own built in draw.