I have a bad feeling about KOTOR 2.....

[Gorth]

I dunno about the differences between the Baldurs gate and Fallout series, but the only sequel that i played that outshined its predecessor is System Shock II.

 

No doubt that Obsidian are having a difficult task to accomplish.

Master of Orion 2 was more fun in the long run than Master of Orion, even with the annoying bugs

[The Situationist]

I like BG2 more than BG1, but FO1 more than FO2.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

IMO there is nothing to worry about, Obsidian (even though a new company) have a lot of experiance and i think a different approach will give us a good sequal not just more of the same (thats not to say i want everything to be different!). <_<

[Gromnir]

"The writing in Torment was much better than the writing in KOTOR, the characters much more three dimensional, and the general feel much more mature."

 

ask 100 folks who the best character in ps:t was. will see morte and annah and tno and the transcendent one get mentioned... you will even see votes for fall from grace, and she is one of those unfinished and half-baked characters that we was mighty disappointed with. far down the list you may see ravel mentioned. even so, ravel is the one ps:t character we would stack up 'gainst jolee.

 

korriban were also better developed and better written than a number of areas in ps:t. in fact, ps:t really was, for Gromnir at least, more of a sigil+ game. the fortress of regrets, in particular, was kinda lame. heck, baator was so underutilized as to be a bit of a joke. after you leaves sigil, the game, save for one important encounter upon return to sigil, was anti-climactic for Gromnir.

 

furthermore, as much as chris a was clearly the lead writer and soul of ps:t, he didn't write ps:t all by his lonesome. hell, many of the really good ideas for ps:t was characters, place and situations lifted from underused planescape supplements. collin mccomb never did get his due from fans... and for those of you who liked the brothel, well, that was dave m doing the writing. the number of people who mistakenly thinks that the pillar of skulls was chris a's idea, raise your hand.

 

similarly, david g did not write kotor. dave did hk-47, carth and jolee, and got a planet, and he helped on some other stuff, but ain't like his stamp is everywhere on game.

 

oh, and keeps in mind that kotor also very cleverly disguised the fact that it was recreating the entire star wars story arc alongs with characters and themes lifted from the first three movies. that alone, while seemingly a minor thing, is getting big points from Gromnir. was only an intuitive approach from hindsight, but it was perfect for what kotor was trying to accomplish. is also also something that we rarely seen professional or amateur critics of kotor mentions when talking 'bout strengths and weakness of kotor. seems to us that many folks missed the mostest important aspect of kotor story writing.

 

how many folks on these boards has mentioned that they not like the lightside ending of kotor? not seen one of those self appointed pundits note that the lightside ending was almost a forgone conclusion considering how faithful bioware was to the source material... was an ending exactly like from the original star wars movies. the ending, like the rest of the game, was an homage to the first three movies. no matter what, you was gonna end up with an ending that took most of its elements from star wars or return of the jedi. why folks would expect a different kinda ending considering how closely the game followed the story arc of the first three movies is beyond Gromnir. any other kinda ending woulda been maybe more fun for players, but from a writing standpoint it woulda' been a glaring incongruity... an incongruity that almost none mentions.

 

*shrug*

 

Gromnir liked ps:t better than kotor, but we also recognize that kotor did many story things better... and am not seeing why you find a comparison of chris a and david g so meaningful or even clear-cut.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

Man. I like Chris Avellone too; but hisa writing skills are sooo overrated. HGe is not some writing God. IWD2 proves this. And, besides, like Grom mentioned, he did NOT write any of the BIS games solo. Jeez. And, giving Dave G all (or most of ) the credit (or engative press) for KOTOR's writing (or other BIO games) is just plain silly since, he like Avellone, did not write the games solo.

 

Geez.. Theya re not Shakespeare, King, or some other fancy writer whow rite their books solo. Silly gooses.

[AlanC9]

Master of Orion 2 was more fun in the long run than Master of Orion, even with the annoying bugs

I thought Moo1 actually holds up better than Moo2, though that might be just because it's too easy to have an optimal strategy in Moo2. (As for Moo3......)

 

Master of Magic tops both.

[Schazzwozzer]

I always find it funny how readily fans attribute the quality of an RPG to the writing skills of those involved. RPG fans just love to think that their favorite games are really intellectual and have these fantastic storylines and it's the storyline that makes the game so great and superior to other game genres. But I don't agree. The way I see it, KotOR succeeded for three simple reasons.

 

1. It's Star Wars.

 

2. The gameplay (combat) was not particularly demanding. It was accessible. Lots of people could play and enjoy the game.

 

3. Unlike virtually any other console RPG ever, the game asked the player, "hey, what do you want to do?" and when the player responded, "I want to be a total badass," the game didn't stop him.

 

Did the average player really take note of how cohesive or effective the storyline was as a whole? I don't think so. Honestly, I think that the value of the plot in any video game can be measured directly by how effectively it puts new play space and content in front of the player. Basically, the average player couldn't give a damn about why he's going to some exotic planet, just so long as it's interesting when he gets there.

 

Characters are the only aspect of a game that I think can still be driven mostly by writing skills and, while the game's characters were certainly a part of why KotOR was a success, it was, I think, not amongst the most important. And even then, a video game character can still be made effective by a cool visual appearance or a memorable behavioral quirk. Solid writing is not necessarily a requirement, depending on what the character's purpose is.

[AlanC9]

how many folks on these boards has mentioned that they not like the lightside ending of kotor?  not seen one of those self appointed pundits note that the lightside ending was almost a forgone conclusion considering how faithful bioware was to the source material... was an ending exactly like from the original star wars movies.

Maybe the folks who didn't like the KotOR lightside ending didn't like the first trilogy's ending either? And I think Bio missed slightly with the LS ending, even by that standard. Lucas did have Vader's cremation , and Bio should have thrown some bit of quite reflection in too. What does Revan do now?

 

Whenever I see these debates about game writing style, it reminds me of a debate about movie directors. Bioware's always struck me as sort of the Steven Spielberg of CRPG design. Really popular, but a bit too bubblegummy for the real geeks, and prone to wreck things with lame endings.

 

So who does that make Black Isle? De Palma? Scorcese? Stone? I'd like to see Obsidian turn out to be Spike Jonze, but I'm not sure they'd make any money that way

 

Incidentally, I like Bio games, but usually find Spielberg's films disappointing. Go figure.

[Sorwen]

The writing in Torment was much better than the writing in KOTOR,

 

I totally disagree. I couldn't even finish Torment where I've complete KoToR twice(started a lot more times). KoToR is the only game I've complete in a long time. Usually I get to a point where I'm bored and I know it is only a matter of sitting there long enough and I'll complete the game. That is about the time I quit and never touch the game again. It was KoToR's story that had me wanting to finish the game. For me if this game lives up to nothing else it has to live up to the story of KoToR. Heck KoToR has had a better story than the last two SW movies.

 

While I find this teams work good they lack something that Bioware seems to have. I can't really say what it is, but it has been just missing in all their games. I bought Fallout 1&2(only completed 1), Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape. I got bored on all except Fallout and only completed because I was bored. They start great concepts, but they just can't follow through with the game/story. I have to say while KoToR2 sounds good(like the others did) I really have my doubts. They don't suck, they just don't live up to their potential.

[AlanC9]

Did the average player really take note of how cohesive or effective the storyline was as a whole? I don't think so. Honestly, I think that the value of the plot in any video game can be measured directly by how effectively it puts new play space and content in front of the player. Basically, the average player couldn't give a damn about why he's going to some exotic planet, just so long as it's interesting when he gets there.

Probably true. But the professional RPG discussion board geeks here aren't average players. And we tend to squawk more when our needs aren't met, which can lead to negative buzz.

 

If KotOR had failed as badly on plot and characters as, say, ToEE did, would it have sold as well? Maybe it still would have sold on XBox because of the lack of competition, but I don't think the PC version would have done very well at all.

[AlanC9]

While I find this teams work good they lack something that Bioware seems to have. I can't really say what it is, but it has been just missing in all their games. I bought Fallout 1&2(only completed 1), Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape. I got bored on all except Fallout and only completed because I was bored. They start great concepts, but they just can't follow through with the game/story. I have to say while KoToR2 sounds good(like the others did) I really have my doubts. They don't suck, they just don't live up to their potential.

Baldur's Gate was written by Bioware.

[Darque]

Let's not forget that it seems Bioware CAME to Obsidian to make this game.

Bioware let Obsidian have KotOR 2 simply because BIO is more interested in making it's own IPs succesful, now that they have been succesful with D&D (several times) and with Star Wars.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with your wording, but this is hardly a case of the BIO CEOs coming before Fergie, bowing and presenting KotOR2 on a silver plate.

They could have picked any company to do this game... but they CHOSE Obsidian to do it.

[Opus131]

Grominr, all though your points are all (mostly) valid, i still think Torment outclasses KOTOR in nearly every single area then i can think of (including combat), and yes, over-rated or not, i also rank Chris Avellone above DG.

 

All in all, i still see no reason to doubt Obsidian couldn't do a far better job with this game then Bioware, albeit i must admit Bioware were propably more confortable with the inherent luck laster and blandness of the source metarial.

[newc0253]

Probably true. But the professional RPG discussion board geeks here aren't average players.

professional? you mean you get paid for doing this? damn.

[AlanC9]

professional? you mean you get paid for doing this? damn.

Well, in a sense, yes. I'm posting from work.

[Volourn]

PST had better combat? LOLOLOLOL Obviously you didn't play PST.

 

I can see the argument for stating that PST had better story, characters, and witing than KOTOR; but combat? I'm not the biggest fan of KOTOR's combat as it had LOTS of weaknesses; but compared to PST; it's combat was perfect as PST combat was literlaly a joke. I mean, I LAUGHED at it. Literally.

 

And, the only reason why I think Obsidian well do better with KOTOR2 then Bio did with KOTOR1 is simple. They can learn from Bio's KOTOR msiatkes, and do their ebst not to make the same ones while keeping the stuff Bioware did right and even enchancing those.

 

Obsidian has no exuse for failure. None.

[Darque]

professional? you mean you get paid for doing this? damn.

Well, in a sense, yes. I'm posting from work.

Don't get caught.... :ph34r:

[newc0253]

professional? you mean you get paid for doing this? damn.

Well, in a sense, yes. I'm posting from work.

as am i, but i doubt i could claim it as part of my professional obligations. billing a client for 'posting on internet about star wars game' just wouldn't look good.

[Volourn]

Depends on the client, I suppose..

 

Maybe they are a big SW geek themslef and wnat tod o all busines sin the future with you ';cause ya share a common bond.

[newc0253]

They can learn from Bio's KOTOR msiatkes

yeah, msiatkes are the worst. i can't stand it when people make lazy msiatkes.

[FrankK]

And, the only reason why I think Obsidian well do better with KOTOR2 then Bio did with KOTOR1 is simple. They can learn from Bio's KOTOR msiatkes, and do their ebst not to make the same ones while keeping the stuff Bioware did right and even enchancing those.

This is a pretty valid point.

 

Not having to start an engine from scratch is actually a huge asset (and cuts 6 months to a year out of the dev cycle). Having an engine with a toolset like this one is even better. Having an existing engine and a quality toolset cuts at least a year out of the development cycle. It also lets engineering focus on 'fun' stuff like gameplay and new graphical effects. Those are the things that will be visibile to the player.

 

The dev cycle on this game is probably longer than most BIS internally developed releases (I know it's an eternity compared to the title I worked on).

[Volourn]

Newc: Haha.

 

Frankk: Just to clarify, not like I don't think you cna makea good game without any bagge from Bio. Hhehe..

[kefka]

They can learn from Bio's KOTOR msiatkes

yeah, msiatkes are the worst. i can't stand it when people make lazy msiatkes.

hehe, once again newc brings the house down.

[newc0253]

Maybe they are a big SW geek themslef

not in my line of work, no.

[Gorth]

Having an engine with a toolset like this one is even better.

Toolset ? What toolset ? Can we see it ?