Merchant Gold

[GreyFox]

Stun is of course completely correct here and there is no problem at all.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

BG2... SE vendors.

They added one later on with a patch for all to use, but the second is only unlocked using the community patch (which isn't hauled with lawsuits as it probably would be nowadays with how DLC is dealt with).

 

You must have been mad as a cut snake with the last official patch for IWDII with the merchants.

 

VERSION 2.01 - [v2.01.1016]

NEW STUFF

- Added new powerful armor into stores

 

Ah yes, Obsidian. tsk tsk.

[ManifestedISO]

Whew, home finally, just walked in the door to Breezehome. Had to travel hunched over by foot to Riften by way of Markarth--stopped in Windhelm, then ate cheese wheels and seared mammoth snout in Falkreath ... took about two weeks, but me and Lydia managed to sell all of my seriously heavy, expensive ****. What'd I miss ... 

[Voss]

 

Now look at KOTOR2, which has what you have. You don't need to SELL anything since credits are worthless. Standard gear is dropped, consumables are in heavy supply anyway. And the moderate/rare items suck more than the drops. Result; Shops are utterly and entirely fluff and useless.

I rather have more of the first mentioned than the second mentioned.

 

But do feel free to find all people who think the KOTOR2 vendor system is "fine"...

 

It is fine. Or, rather it would be fine, if it was really set up like that.  But large parts of both KotoRs were unfortunately all about getting better lightsabers, by hook, crook or just throwing money at people, which is absurdity.

 

See, the thing is, loot and merchants have to be appropriate for the specific setting, and certainly not reality.  And games that promote a gear treadmill and Monty Haul acquisition are really off in the Star Wars universe.  Shops are for extreme weather gear, spaceship parts and mundane crap, not Even More Better lightsabers or blasters.  So credits and shops really should be irrelevant and useless.    

 

For a D&D style fantasy adventure with dungeons?  No, not at all.  You've got your shoddy starter armor, and the armor you dream of gathering gold to obtain, and then the legendary stuff you can only get from stabbing some (hopefully monstrous) fool in the face.  Plus assorted supplies, bits and bobs for better dungeoneering.  It is a genre that prides itself on having both amazing loot and a giant pile of cash you can swim in, even if there isn't any real 'point' in it. Not that most people, (as opposed to dedicated warrior monks) really object to the accumulation of cash in and of itself.   Alchemical substances, scrolls, crazy one shot items, useful utility items, there is a wide range of stuff that a good fantasy game can indulge in to have useful shops without selling Real Ultimate Power.  

[Hassat Hunter]

Does nobody here actually read my posts? Good thing argumenting against stuff I never even said... (and I actually agree with)

 

Nope, only ONE of the 2 vendors was patched in. The other does not exist with the official patches, wheter you have ToB or not. Go ahead, try it out for yourself (FYI that's the one in the Coronet (sp?) Inn, the one patched in was in the Magic Bazaar what's it called again).

 

I agree there's no modern in inventory item nonsense in BG2... THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. E.g. "Baldur's Gate did DLC items right, unlike modern games"...

Read people!

 

And my point was (as you could read in my previous post) that BG2 did stores RIGHT. Unlike modern games like KOTOR2 where stores are indeed just to pile off loot and there's nothing of any use to sell. BG2 sold unique, powerful itemry in shops that you wanted to get gold for to buy. That's what I want to see in PoE, not a wattered down all stuff in stores is junk. "Better" isn't necessarily the right worth... just different. Verisimilitude. Buying just an upgrade from +2 to +3 in a store is boring. Getting something that adds to your options of resolutions however, is great.

So let's not go 'who cares about the gold, just *fix* it by having vendor's sell just crap"... since that's just murdering one system because one can be bothered fixing the other, and brings the entire game down in the long run.

 

And just for conversations sake, the item that made you impervius to Beholders was insanely useful/powerful...

 

Am I clear NOW?

[Sensuki]

 

 

Unlike modern games like KOTOR2 where stores are indeed just to pile off loot and there's nothing of any use to sell. BG2 sold unique, powerful itemry in shops that you wanted to get gold for to buy. That's what I want to see in PoE, not a wattered down all stuff in stores is junk.

 

While items are not as powerful as BG2, there are items in stores in Pillars of Eternity that I want to buy. One of the best items in the beta, Ritezzi's Thorn (a spear) is for sale in a shop.

[Voss]

And my point was (as you could read in my previous post) that BG2 did stores RIGHT. Unlike modern games like KOTOR2 where stores are indeed just to pile off loot and there's nothing of any use to sell. BG2 sold unique, powerful itemry in shops that you wanted to get gold for to buy. That's what I want to see in PoE, not a wattered down all stuff in stores is junk. "Better" isn't necessarily the right worth... just different. Verisimilitude. Buying just an upgrade from +2 to +3 in a store is boring. Getting something that adds to your options of resolutions however, is great.

So let's not go 'who cares about the gold, just *fix* it by having vendor's sell just crap"... since that's just murdering one system because one can be bothered fixing the other, and brings the entire game down in the long run.

 

And just for conversations sake, the item that made you impervius to Beholders was insanely useful/powerful...

 

Am I clear NOW?

Not at all.  KotoR 2 isn't any more a 'modern game' than BG2.  Verisimilitude depends on setting more than anything else.  Upgrading weapons does matter, and at times (particularly at the start and even into the mid-game), selling better (but not top-tier) weapons in shops is a desirable thing. So your clarity is undermined by arguing about 6 different things at once, and assuming they are the same issue.  For example:

 

Balduran's Shield was a simple solution to BG2 actively spamming gimmick loner monsters as mooks in certain dungeons. particularly one that comes so early that the party should not have the tools to deal with it, and was tied into a class stronghold line.  It wasn't 'powerful', it was an easy solution to shoddy encounter design (and the terrible game design where any death (or stone) effect on your main character was a trip to the GAME OVER screen, despite the plethora of rez magic).

[Stun]

'who cares about the gold, just *fix* it by having vendor's sell just crap"...

...is not what anyone on this thread has said. Or argued. Or suggested.

 

Contrary to the black and white world some people here live in, there is, in fact, a middle ground between a system where merchants sell God-like gear, and a system where merchants sell crap.

 

The IE games hit that spot. And they also had the unlimited merchant gold system. You put these two together and you have a situation where there's no friggin problem that needs to be "fixed".

[Hassat Hunter]

Except this time around the golden IE-limit is upset by infinite loot and a lack of weight limitations.

As I have said a dozen times before...

[Stun]

Except this time around the golden IE-limit is upset by infinite loot and a lack of weight limitations.

As I have said a dozen times before...

That's an inventory issue, not a merchant issue.

 

And BG2 had Bags of holding, gem pouches, ammo belts and scroll cases.... while not having any true money sinks, or crafting ingredients that had to be managed. I'm not quite sure how one can claim some giant difference in the end when all the factors are added together and a comparison is made.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Stun

[Hassat Hunter]

Just don't trust goldsinks... they never work out properly, and IMO they have no place in a singleplayer game where the sollution is fixing the economy rather than adding an artificial drain to cope with incompetance.

 

It's a "there needs to be some limitations issue. As is, there currently is none, which easily can lead to a gold-deflation, especially if other things are kept the same as IE ("drop everything")...

[Stun]

It's a "there needs to be some limitations issue. As is, there currently is none, which easily can lead to a gold-deflation,

Gold deflation...broken economy.... So?

 

The game does not require you to play the stock market, or the role of an accountant, or even a business owner. So what difference does it make?

 

I will say one thing about that though. If I'm playing this game, I find myself concentrating more on my finances than I am on...you know, dungeon crawling, exploring, combatting and questing, then I will see this game as a failure.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Stun

[Ineth]

I will say one thing about that though. If I'm playing this game, I find myself concentrating more on my finances than I am on...you know, dungeon crawling, exploring, combatting and questing, then I will see this game as a failure.

 

"Accounting of Eternity: The Quest for a Balanced Budget"

[Lephys]

Thing is... these are games, and mechanically, the buying-things option is a gate for item acquisition. So, I really don't see anything wrong with being able to buy some very nice artifacts/items. However, where verisimilitude can be reasonably useful, perhaps, is to have access to those purchases be more than just "Peter the middle-class merchant is selling this legendary artifact." Maybe actually have access to that item be tied to narrative things and decisions you've made. Maybe some master thief bought it, and is selling it via a fence in the criminal underworld? Why? Because he's not gonna go screw with any dragons, so it's worth more to him if changed into money, than as itself.

 

*shrug*

 

I will say one thing about that though. If I'm playing this game, I find myself concentrating more on my finances than I am on...you know, dungeon crawling, exploring, combatting and questing, then I will see this game as a failure.

But it's difficult. I mean, when they're only average ances, it's easy to ignore them. But fine ones? Those are really something to behold. 6_u

Edited February 10, 2015 by Lephys

[rjshae]

These types issues are why I'd like to see a different game mechanic for purchasing the more powerful loot. For example, a private magic item auction held in a well-to-do quarter with some interesting bidders. First you have to earn your way in, and then you're not always guaranteed to get an item you really want. Perhaps you need to look at the list of items to be auctioned that day, converse with the bidders to see where their interests lie and estimate their probable wealth, use your lore skill to estimate the item values, then place your secret bids on one or more of the different items.

[Diogenes]

I would imagine that the beta has more interesting items in Dyrford shops for the players to mess around with, and in the game itself there would be something like High Hedge or Sorcerous Sundries.

[Hassat Hunter]

@ Ejshae: Now I want a quest where you need to buy a legendary item and have to find a way to make sure you have the highest bid.

Either by good old spywork, or if inclined, by elimating the opposition (such a nice people are we).

 

@ Stun: I can understand why you would think that economy is boring,  and of little influence and that this is complaining for complainings sake.

Sadly, it's not that easy. The actual GAMEBalance is also tied to it's economy. You can imagine what it does to difficulty if powerful items are up for grabs. Or on the opposite end if much needed combat aids are rare to find and way to expensive to buy and before you know it you're out of [some item you use often].

 

For example, imagine vendors in BG1 almost all sold the Wand of Monster Spawning. And at around 100 gold.

Would this break the entire game since you can beat every encounter with spam and regain the investment? Even if apparently it's boring economics?

Of course the sollution would be to make it rarer, or more expensive. Economics would do this on a global scale- gamewide. You can keep altering existing item prices and availability, but it wont do you much good if the underlying problem is a broken economy, or this individual price-shift actually upset the balance more by giving you more gold selling stuff etc.

 

So, yeah... boring... but... essential.

And the whole idea of this thread isn't to make it a market-mini-game for the player, but to have a behind the scenes economy work properly. Since it's more important than you think.

And adding a proper economy, rather than a broken one which you spend god knows how long QA testing and pre-release bugpatches to patch up the system, it's much better to get it right and working proper from the start. As I say; Fix, not patch. Fix the problem, don't "fix" the symptoms.

And reigning in with some limitations helps a LOT by actually making it work as intended, balanced and perhaps also a pre-emptive measurement to the gold exploits you know *will* be there and *will* be found.

[Stun]

For example, imagine vendors in BG1 almost all sold the Wand of Monster Spawning. And at around 100 gold.

They already do? Money management is a complete non-issue in BG1, as there are only 3 items in the entire game that cost more than 10,000 GP and can only be found in shops (Dagger of venom; light crossbow of speed, and the Shadow thief armor) In the meantime, there are at least 2 vendors who sell multiple copies of every wand and every potion. You don't need a 6 pack of Monster summoning wands when you can use one of them 20 times, and then either find another, or go buy 2 more.

 

You can, in fact, break BG1's whole illusion of challenge by spamming vender-sold items. Using just potions, wands and scrolls you can buy from High Hedge (fairly cheap and about an hour after leaving Candlekeep), you can Obliterate Drizzt when your party is only about 3rd level. That is, quite literally, the definition of Broken.

 

Funny though that Bg1 does not have the reputation of being a broken game. I wonder why that is. Perhaps people don't friggin care about its broken economy because they're having too much fun? Maybe?

Edited February 11, 2015 by Stun

[lordkim]

Are  there only Copper( or what)  as coins in the game ?
I can only see one kind of coin.

[Lychnidos]

There are multiple different coins, but they all convert to copper when you loot them. You can check them here.

[lordkim]

Pretty bad i think... why all these different coins, when they are converted to one !!

[Lychnidos]

What other reason there can be except to help immerse players, to give a little more verisimilitude to the world. The mental arithmetic that will be required otherwise when visiting a merchant is not something I would consider an entertaining activity. 

[Lephys]

Yeah, it seems to pretty much be for lore purposes.

 

Although, with regard to the mental arithmetic that would be required if the currencies actually mattered... that's not entirely true. You could have the game do that for you. Get to a merchant, select your currency type, see equivalent prices in that currency. That way, a merchant in Place A could give you a cheaper price in Place A's currency than in another currency. Which could be interesting if not overly done, i.e. "If I want to buy this sword with rubles, it's eighty-billion rubles, but it's only 7 silver pieces."

 

People complaining about such things are usually just complaining about extents. I mean, HP can be annoying if you have way too much of it, or way too little of it (compared to damage). But, that doesn't mean everyone should be invincible. Getting good deals here and there because you optionally pay attention to which currency is most valuable to a given merchant (if the game actually supports this, and doesn't force you to manually figure it all out with a notepad and paper) can be nice, if it's not too ridiculously significant or too ridiculously subtle.

[ModernModron]

These types issues are why I'd like to see a different game mechanic for purchasing the more powerful loot. For example, a private magic item auction held in a well-to-do quarter with some interesting bidders. First you have to earn your way in, and then you're not always guaranteed to get an item you really want. Perhaps you need to look at the list of items to be auctioned that day, converse with the bidders to see where their interests lie and estimate their probable wealth, use your lore skill to estimate the item values, then place your secret bids on one or more of the different items.

 

Neat idea.

 

While reading this this thread I was contemplating something similar, a system where merchants would be part of a 'trust' mechanic.  Merchants would only buy and sell cheap, mundane items directly.  To sell something more important, you'd need to elave it with the merchant and he'd try to sell it for you.  If you gave a valuable item to the wrong sort of merchant, he'd just run off with it and you'd be stuck feeling like a fool.  But if you gave it to the right sort, you'd eventually sell the item for big bucks (or trade it for something you really need, etc), and you would start to build a relationship with that merchant.  The better the relationship, the more the merchant would be willing to help you: loan you money, fence a 'hot' item, hide your family when the stormtroopers come looking for them, those sorts of things.

 

Obviously, it would be a monster task to develop, but if they could pull it off it would make a limited gold supply totally worthwhile.  But it would also wind up being a big part of the game, possibly enough to take away from other aspects (like the traditional dungeon crawl bits).

 

So while I'm definitely not opposed to limiting the gold supply, I agree with the people who feel it's not a good thing in and of itself.  It has to serve the larger picture.

 

From what I've heard, I'm happy PoE merchants will have unlimited checking accounts.