Apologies to Obsidian

[morrow1nd]

As a big bad grognard i do love/respect ALL backers and the company that working hard to bring us an epic cRPG experience

 

But i think you are just overreacting. Yes there are tense discussions but never toxic ones (as far as i see )

 

Afterall we are civilized and passionate group whom has only one purpose

 

and we call it PoE

[Leferd]

 

@caesar

 

It's not nearly to the Codexian level

It's not nearly to the BSN level either. And definitely not to the Bethsoft forum level.

 

Relatively speaking, these forums are as civil as gaming forums can ever be. The echo chamber ideal some of you seem to be seeking is just as unhealthy as it is unattainable. And you wouldn't want it anyway, whether you think you do or not. If you're here, then that means you're a GAMER, and gamers are competitive by definition. Thus a forum filled with nothing but quiet, peaceful agreement will bore any gamer away rather quickly.

Your opinion. I like Internet drama just as much as anyone but a line is crossed if the general feeling among the Devs is that the forums have become too uncomfortable to their taste to engage with their fans --some reflections have to be made.

 

There's plenty of trolls here --and that's fine and actually pretty entertaining, but I've avoided posting in many good legitimate topics because I don't want to get drawn into a flame war --of which you specifically seem to be embroiled in quite often due to your particularly inflammatory posting style.

 

I actually agree with some of your sentiments but you need to take down the aggressiveness a notch, if you want some of the devs or other posters to be comfortable enough to chime in.

[Blarghagh]

The problem with what Stun is saying is that he connects peaceful and agreement. No such connection exists. I can agree with someone but be a jerk about it (not what we want) and I can disagree with someone respectfully (what we want). Presto, no echo chamber.

[Marceror]

Indira, you ignorant sl*t!

 

Please pull yourself together already.

 

Seriously, I haven't been around for a while but it's nice to see some kumbayaing going on.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Marceror

[Yonjuro]

 

 

.... The echo chamber ideal some of you seem to be seeking is just as unhealthy as it is unattainable. And you wouldn't want it anyway, .....

 

 I agree that we wouldn't want an echo chamber. What I would like to see is more things like this:

 

<Something in game> should work differently because <reasons>

 

When we have had posts like that, we have had productive discussions about reasons for things that people want and the devs can see why people like the things that they like if they read those discussions. 

 

 Sometimes we get this instead:

 

I hate <named obsidian developer> because the game does <something I don't like> due to <aforementioned developer's secret hidden agenda> and therefore I hope he/she dies of <some gruesome disease> after getting run over by a truck filled with <smelly substance>. 

 

This latter type of shrill angsty post doesn't really get us anywhere in a discussion and I don't think the devs derive much useful information from them (or even read them at all).

 

So, I don't see it as an option between everybody agrees with everything (an echo chamber) and nasty crap. I see it as constructive criticism vs. nasty crap.

[ManifestedISO]

Have no idea the impetus of this thread, nor any clue what a "besserwisserness" is, or was, or will be. Indira's never bothered me, idk. 

[Leferd]

PAX thread. In fact, Indira and Nonek should apologize to me for its demise.

[Doppelschwert]

Have no idea the impetus of this thread, nor any clue what a "besserwisserness" is, or was, or will be. Indira's never bothered me, idk. 

 

'Besserwisser' is the german word for 'know-it-all' or, to less extent, smartass.

[Yonjuro]

..

'Besserwisser' is the german word for 'know-it-all' or, to less extent, smartass.

 

 

 Cool.  I think that it is possible in German to have a single word for  "know it all on the topic of crowd funded independently developed computer role playing games" - so how about it?

[cmergler]

Crowd-funded-independently-developed-computer-role-playing-games-Besserwisser 

 

These days lots of english words are used in Germany, especially with regards to computer stuff.

 

Edit: another try: Crowd-funded-Indie-Entwickler-Computer-Rollenspiel-Besserwisser

Edited January 26, 2015 by cmergler

[Doppelschwert]

 

..

'Besserwisser' is the german word for 'know-it-all' or, to less extent, smartass.

 

 

 Cool.  I think that it is possible in German to have a single word for  "know it all on the topic of crowd funded independently developed computer role playing games" - so how about it?

 

 

Well, formally you can construct something like that. The only rule in doing this is basically that any word describes the next word to the right further, so the order matters. For example, 'SchulFerien' means vacation from school while 'FerienSchule' means a school that you attend during vacation.

So I guess it would be "crowdfundet-indie-rollenspiel-besserwisser", although nobody would say something like that.

I actually think that it doesn't fit here because know-it-all itself is not context specific, so it feels kinda strange.

Self-claimed expert on crowd funded independently developed computer role playing games however seems more natural, which would maybe read

'selbsternannter crowdgefundete-indie-rollenspiele-experte'.

Still, no-one would use that. You would say "selbsternannter experte für crowdgefundete indie rollenspiele" which is basically the same as in english.

Note that words like crowdfunded, indie and rpg are common words used in germany because nowadays no-one seems to care to use the translations of the words as english sounds 'cooler' or something like that.

 

This word-stacking is more common when all the words are actual nouns. The more I think about it, the more I think you wouldn't use adjectives or the likes in these constructions. I guess there is a reason I studied maths instead of literature, after all...

Edited January 26, 2015 by Doppelschwert

[Sarex]

The sad thing is that people who are selling peace in this debate, are the same people who are hostile towards people like Stun and Me (people who don't agree with the changes made). A picture is being painted that we are hostile towards the people on the other side of the debate right of the bat, when we are just returning what we are given.

 

As for offending and being abusive towards the devs, I have seen no such thing from Stun or any of the regular posters that are Grognards as Josh called them...btw where was his apology for that? I have read a few of his opinions pieces towards us and they were not at all polite or pandering. He was being honest with his opinion, why should we be anything less?

 

You people are confusing blunt criticism for outright hostility... Either way there are people here from different cultures and not everyone has the same outlook on what is honest and what is rude.

 

What you consider polite, I consider as pandering. If you are willing to do it, I am not. As always they can take or ignore my criticism, but in the end I have always said what I thought was good for this game and for that I am not sorry.

[Blarghagh]

I wasn't aware you were a "problem" and that these things are specifically about you. I believe some people already posted that they were sorry that they got hostile towards people and let it escalate. I don't think anyone is blaming you specifically? I can't speak for anyone else, though, but I find it weird that you take the debate personally. I'm "selling" peace yet I don't remember having any negative interactions with you (correct me if I'm wrong, and I'll probably apologize).

 

Is Grognard a rude term? I believe it just means old soldier and refers to people who like their games old school. I don't know what Sawyer said about them. Either way, nobody here is being forced to apologize, they're doing it from their own volition and desire. Demanding one from Sawyer seems odd since nobody is making such demands on you.

 

Anyway, like I said before, "peaceful" does not have to mean agreement or pandering. It's just the difference between "I think your opinion is completely wrong and here's why" honesty, and "I think you're an incompetent fool who has to learn how to read and I won't bother with your nonsense anymore" ad hominem rudeness.

Edited January 26, 2015 by TrueNeutral

[Leferd]

Sarex brings up a good point. There may be a cultural disconnect as it relates to what the dichotomy is between what is considered civil/heated/aggressive. We have Australians, Serbs, Germans, Dutch, Brits, Koreans, Africans, Americans, etc., Hell, even the dispositions of New Yorkers would be different from Iowans and Californians. Each have different life experiences and varying levels of conflict.

 

What is normal to an Aussi may be blunt to a Californian. What is tactful to a Londoner is groveling to someone from Belgrade.

 

Most of us are fans of Obsidian and want them to succeed and each has their own agenda as to their ideas for what makes a worthy IE successor.

 

Thanks for the perspective and reminder Sarex --that we are an international community.

 

OK. Enough pandering to the Kumbaya crowd....

[ElvenRogue]

 

 

I apologise for the romance thread existing.

 

Why? You're not responsible for that one.

 

I am.

He's English, they're required to apologize at least once an hour for something.

 

 

Sorry, but I am English...

 

...and found this pretty funny.

[Yonjuro]

The sad thing is that people who are selling peace in this debate, are the same people who are hostile towards people like Stun and Me (people who don't agree with the changes made). A picture is being painted that we are hostile towards the people on the other side of the debate right of the bat, when we are just returning what we are given.

 

 

 For the record, I don't think you or Stun are examples of the the kind of thing I posted above. You both normally have an actual point to your posts whereas I have seen a lot forum posts that scream angst but little else and only add noise to the discussion.

 

 

..

You people are confusing blunt criticism for outright hostility... Either way there are people here from different cultures and not everyone has the same outlook on what is honest and what is rude.

 

What you consider polite, I consider as pandering...

 

  You might get more traction with some of your ideas if you are more diplomatic (I don't mean you personally, I mean that as a general statement), but be as blunt as you like. As long there is a point somewhere and a reason for having the point, I will be the first person to defend your post (and also to argue with it if I don't agree with your reasoning). 

[Yonjuro]

Crowd-funded-independently-developed-computer-role-playing-games-Besserwisser 

 

These days lots of english words are used in Germany, especially with regards to computer stuff.

 

Edit: another try: Crowd-funded-Indie-Entwickler-Computer-Rollenspiel-Besserwisser

 

and

 

....

Well, formally you can construct something like that. The only rule in doing this is basically that any word describes the next word to the right further, so the order matters. For example, 'SchulFerien' means vacation from school while 'FerienSchule' means a school that you attend during vacation.

So I guess it would be "crowdfundet-indie-rollenspiel-besserwisser", although nobody would say something like that.

I actually think that it doesn't fit here because know-it-all itself is not context specific, so it feels kinda strange.

Self-claimed expert on crowd funded independently developed computer role playing games however seems more natural, which would maybe read

'selbsternannter crowdgefundete-indie-rollenspiele-experte'.

Still, no-one would use that. You would say "selbsternannter experte für crowdgefundete indie rollenspiele" which is basically the same as in english.

Note that words like crowdfunded, indie and rpg are common words used in germany because nowadays no-one seems to care to use the translations of the words as english sounds 'cooler' or something like that.

 

This word-stacking is more common when all the words are actual nouns. The more I think about it, the more I think you wouldn't use adjectives or the likes in these constructions. I guess there is a reason I studied maths instead of literature, after all...

 

 

 I appreciate the effort. We just don't try that hard in (American) English  .

 

Now, I would like to say that if more people would stop acting like a crowdfundetindierollenspielbesserwisser and state their reasoning, we would have more productive discussions on the forum.

[Nonek]

PAX thread. In fact, Indira and Nonek should apologize to me for its demise.

 

I unreservedly apologise for the demise of the PAX thread, I also apologise for the lateness of my response and finally I apologise for apologising too much.

 

Well that's my craving sated for today.

[Sarex]

I wasn't aware you were a "problem" and that these things are specifically about you. I believe some people already posted that they were sorry that they got hostile towards people and let it escalate. I don't think anyone is blaming you specifically? I can't speak for anyone else, though, but I find it weird that you take the debate personally. I'm "selling" peace yet I don't remember having any negative interactions with you (correct me if I'm wrong, and I'll probably apologize).

 

Is Grognard a rude term? I believe it just means old soldier and refers to people who like their games old school. I don't know what Sawyer said about them. Either way, nobody here is being forced to apologize, they're doing it from their own volition and desire. Demanding one from Sawyer seems odd since nobody is making such demands on you.

 

Anyway, like I said before, "peaceful" does not have to mean agreement or pandering. It's just the difference between "I think your opinion is completely wrong and here's why" honesty, and "I think you're an incompetent fool who has to learn how to read and I won't bother with your nonsense anymore" ad hominem rudeness.

 

Uh, that kind of backfired, I wasn't talking about you, if we really need to get specific I was talking about PrimeJunta..

 

As for Grognard, I got a distinct feeling like that Josh used it as a derogatory term. As for apologizing, that was just the vibe I got from this thread (and a little ranting on my part).

 

As for being disrespectful, I think the regulars here are pretty ok in that regards. I mean they give as much as they take, but they would much rather get their point across then sling personal insults. I think people here are confusing how new people act (on both sides) with how some familiar people on this forum are behaving. I don't even see the biggest offenders on this forum anymore.

 

I mean what do you guys expect will happens when the game releases? No matter how the game turns out, I will bet you that things on this forum will get wild for a few months at the least.

[Blarghagh]

Yeah, we're counting on it. The same thing happened when the backer beta started, and with pretty much any major announcement or release.

[Nonek]

Yes i've got to admit I was thinking about that myself recently, personally I wouldn't be in your ladies and gents shoes for all the tea in China when the release day blues begin to be sung.

[Blarghagh]

Haha, thanks. The fun fact is that we're all volunteers. We don't get anything in return except the pleasure of having people whose posts we remove railing at us for being Nazis/communists/SJWs in private messages.

[LadyCrimson]

I mean what do you guys expect will happens when the game releases? No matter how the game turns out, I will bet you that things on this forum will get wild for a few months at the least.

I expect it to be chaotic, like with all the big periods since the KS was announced. Hopefully fun chaos, of course. Game release periods are usually my favorite time...when it's a new experience that "everyone" is sharing, helping others, etc.

 

I'm ready. I think.

[Flow]

Does anyone remember the Bioware forums after NWN released?'

 

So far, this is fairly pleasant.

[ManifestedISO]

 

Game release periods are usually my favorite time...when it's a new experience that "everyone" is sharing, helping others, etc.

 

Totally, the best. Helping others, sharing ... if Green Shirt Girl needs help crossing Alton Parkway or ordering sushi, I am totally available.