RPGCodex 2014 Games of the Year

[Sensuki]

I even liked Mass Effect 1 and 2. For a popamole cinematic shooter, ME2 is pretty good for what it is. But I hated Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect 3 (it still had some good bits though).

[BruceVC]

 

 

Just because Bioware makes games you don't enjoy, doesn't mean they make terrible games.  I don't have any interest in playing Call of Duty games, I tried a couple of them years ago and didn't find them enjoyable.  I don't blame the company for that, and I don't feel the need to judge the games when they come out as terrible because they don't appeal to me.  I am certainly not going to say they look terrible, because by all obvious accounts they are high quality products that looks great, run well, and meet the interests of a large audience.  They clearly aren't crap games, just like DA:I is clearly not a crap game.  So yeah, I'm going to belittle your opinion when it is not really based on evidence.   

 

 

The funny thing is I have plenty of complaints about DA:I, and I found DA2 barely tolerable.  

 

I look at a game like DA2, and I think it is a terrible game with very few redeeming qualities. I look at a game like Mass Effect 1, and I see a game that I could never enjoy but looks generally decent, with some things construable as strengths. Same with KOTOR. And if we want to talk about the Codex, or any other hypothetical group of 'Bio haters', I think you'd find that many of them individually have different opinions. Some of them even seem to write off BG series, while others clearly like Bio games enough to buy and play them. 

 

Now if you want to talk details about why I or anyone else might consider any of these games, we can! We can talk about the single player MMO grind combat of DA:I, the quest writing behind DA2, the screensaver combat of KOTOR, the Four MacGuffins of NWN1... obviously, I didn't feel the need to write a book about it in this thread. Doesn't mean you can say "hey, you clearly are a Biohater who has no evidence for his opinion."

 

(There is another assumption running through your response, which is that games which millions of people buy and play could not possibly be terrible. Well, I can see why people would go with that. I don't subscribe to it. We're all capable of enjoying terrible things, whether in the realm of popular culture or in more serious realms of violence, racism, whatever.)

 

Basically my point is simple. Why do some people say harsh things about a game, or a line of games, or a company that makes those games? The most likely answer: they really don't like those games. They really did not enjoy those games, and/or they think the games are objectively terrible. If we want to dispute those judgments, sure, that's why we come to these forums. If we want to sit there and say "oh those people don't count, they just hate Bioware because of what happened 10 years ago" or "oh those people just hate Bio games for no reason", well... I'm sure that's true for some people, but I find that a rather irrational and unreasonable stance.

 

 

 

 

Tigranes let me ask you a different question because you a reasonable person who I believe who will ruminate on the question and then answer honestly

 

This dislike of Bioware I understand can be perfectly justified for some people, but how much of this dislike do you think is really motivated by the fact that Bioware has been one of the first companies to challenge traditional gaming "norms" and be really inclusive for their fanbase 

 

So in other words they have gay characters and optional gay Romance options. Do you not think this is another factor to the whole fall of Bioware in the eyes of some of the previous fans? I doubt people would admit this but I believe this is a contributing reason?

[Humanoid]

On an individual level, sure. But then to follow up, to what extent is that negative bias cancelled out by Bioware getting a free pass from other people for doing that exact same thing? There'd be a lot of white noise in both directions, with games being rated for ideological reasons rather than any qualities with the actual game itself.

 

I'd posit that the two groups would largely cancel each other out and we might have ended up with a fair score by accident.

[BruceVC]

On an individual level, sure. But then to follow up, to what extent is that negative bias cancelled out by Bioware getting a free pass from other people for doing that exact same thing? There'd be a lot of white noise in both directions, with games being rated for ideological reasons rather than any qualities with the actual game itself.

 

I'd posit that the two groups would largely cancel each other out and we might have ended up with a fair score by accident.

Yeah that's a good point, there are people who only play Bioware games and will judge others games because of their perceived lack of inclusivity 

 

So it goes both ways, you are right 

[Orogun01]

 

 

Forgot I have Blackguards.

Unless I can put a stick on a baby and make a mace out of it on the sequel I don't buy the whole these are bad people bit. Demonicon made a better job of presenting and allowing for evil options than Blackguards and was a good game to play with maces.

 

If it didn't have incestuous romance If it didn't take place in Dark Eye setting I'd rate it lower than Bound by Flame. The latter was a better game on its own.

 

Really? Bound by Flame was a bit of a fizzle for me, it just failed to deliver in the end and the level design was far more linear than Of Orcs and Men and Mars War Logs both games which I enjoyed more. Whereas Demonomicon felt solid enough to give it a pass.

 

On topic, I'm surprised the Codex didn't go crazy over the turn based combat in D:OS. Me thinks that they have gone into the Games Journalism business and become corrupt, I distinctively recall seeing a special thanks to the Codex on that game. Guess that's all it takes to be Codex No. 1

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

Forgot I have Blackguards.

Unless I can put a stick on a baby and make a mace out of it on the sequel I don't buy the whole these are bad people bit. Demonicon made a better job of presenting and allowing for evil options than Blackguards and was a good game to play with maces.

 

If it didn't have incestuous romance If it didn't take place in Dark Eye setting I'd rate it lower than Bound by Flame. The latter was a better game on its own.

 

Really? Bound by Flame was a bit of a fizzle for me, it just failed to deliver in the end and the level design was far more linear than Of Orcs and Men and Mars War Logs both games which I enjoyed more. Whereas Demonomicon felt solid enough to give it a pass.

 

On topic, I'm surprised the Codex didn't go crazy over the turn based combat in D:OS. Me thinks that they have gone into the Games Journalism business and become corrupt, I distinctively recall seeing a special thanks to the Codex on that game. Guess that's all it takes to be Codex No. 1

 

Huh? Most Codexians(that I've seen here) cream their pants at the very mention of turn-based, I would've been surprised f D:OS didn't get #1.

Edited January 14, 2015 by KaineParker

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

 

Forgot I have Blackguards.

Unless I can put a stick on a baby and make a mace out of it on the sequel I don't buy the whole these are bad people bit. Demonicon made a better job of presenting and allowing for evil options than Blackguards and was a good game to play with maces.

 

If it didn't have incestuous romance If it didn't take place in Dark Eye setting I'd rate it lower than Bound by Flame. The latter was a better game on its own.

 

Really? Bound by Flame was a bit of a fizzle for me, it just failed to deliver in the end and the level design was far more linear than Of Orcs and Men and Mars War Logs both games which I enjoyed more. Whereas Demonomicon felt solid enough to give it a pass.

 

On topic, I'm surprised the Codex didn't go crazy over the turn based combat in D:OS. Me thinks that they have gone into the Games Journalism business and become corrupt, I distinctively recall seeing a special thanks to the Codex on that game. Guess that's all it takes to be Codex No. 1

 

Huh? Most Codexians(that I've seen here) cream their pants at the very mention of turn-based, I would've been surprised f D:OS didn't get #1.

 

I must be out of touch then.

[Tigranes]

 

On an individual level, sure. But then to follow up, to what extent is that negative bias cancelled out by Bioware getting a free pass from other people for doing that exact same thing? There'd be a lot of white noise in both directions, with games being rated for ideological reasons rather than any qualities with the actual game itself.

 

I'd posit that the two groups would largely cancel each other out and we might have ended up with a fair score by accident.

Yeah that's a good point, there are people who only play Bioware games and will judge others games because of their perceived lack of inclusivity 

 

So it goes both ways, you are right 

 

 

Yep. I'd also add: we're all speculating, right? None of us are going to do an in depth study or survey. So then it makes sense to go for the most reasonable and likely explanation for the various kinds of 'evidence' we have. Well, I see some people who talk about how sick and tired of Bioware's 'inclusivity'... but on the main, I see a lot more people who simply think things like Bioware gay romances are just badly done. I wouldn't have a problem playing a gay protagonist or whatnot, but I know I wouldn't want to be caught dead playing through DA2's sex scenes in the same way I wouldn't want to be caught listening to Miley Cyrus. And again, I think if a hypothetical racist-sexist-gay-hater really enjoyed a Bioware game, they'd probably play it, even have some good things to say about it, then talk crap about those bits. 

 

I mean, once again, which is more likely? That all these people who don't like Bioware games knot themselves into a weird doublethink where they convince themselves these games MUST be terrible and brainwash themselves not to have fun, just because they hate gay people, or they hate Bioware? Or, that most of them just genuinely fail to enjoy these games and think they are bad games - and then, on top, you have some silly people who get uptight about gay romances? 

 

Oh, and more generally? Inclusivity for the sake of inclusivity can only be an artificial simulation. I do think games could use less triple-F cups and that we could have more interesting stories that draw on more diverse backgrounds, but I don't think that is ultimately achieved by ticking boxes. I do think Bioware tries and it does some good, but I don't think they really go far enough to make them some kind of shining beacon on the matter. That's not necessarily their fault - that might take more time.

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

Just because Bioware makes games you don't enjoy, doesn't mean they make terrible games.  I don't have any interest in playing Call of Duty games, I tried a couple of them years ago and didn't find them enjoyable.  I don't blame the company for that, and I don't feel the need to judge the games when they come out as terrible because they don't appeal to me.  I am certainly not going to say they look terrible, because by all obvious accounts they are high quality products that looks great, run well, and meet the interests of a large audience.  They clearly aren't crap games, just like DA:I is clearly not a crap game.  So yeah, I'm going to belittle your opinion when it is not really based on evidence.   

 

 

The funny thing is I have plenty of complaints about DA:I, and I found DA2 barely tolerable.  

 

I look at a game like DA2, and I think it is a terrible game with very few redeeming qualities. I look at a game like Mass Effect 1, and I see a game that I could never enjoy but looks generally decent, with some things construable as strengths. Same with KOTOR. And if we want to talk about the Codex, or any other hypothetical group of 'Bio haters', I think you'd find that many of them individually have different opinions. Some of them even seem to write off BG series, while others clearly like Bio games enough to buy and play them. 

 

Now if you want to talk details about why I or anyone else might consider any of these games, we can! We can talk about the single player MMO grind combat of DA:I, the quest writing behind DA2, the screensaver combat of KOTOR, the Four MacGuffins of NWN1... obviously, I didn't feel the need to write a book about it in this thread. Doesn't mean you can say "hey, you clearly are a Biohater who has no evidence for his opinion."

 

(There is another assumption running through your response, which is that games which millions of people buy and play could not possibly be terrible. Well, I can see why people would go with that. I don't subscribe to it. We're all capable of enjoying terrible things, whether in the realm of popular culture or in more serious realms of violence, racism, whatever.)

 

Basically my point is simple. Why do some people say harsh things about a game, or a line of games, or a company that makes those games? The most likely answer: they really don't like those games. They really did not enjoy those games, and/or they think the games are objectively terrible. If we want to dispute those judgments, sure, that's why we come to these forums. If we want to sit there and say "oh those people don't count, they just hate Bioware because of what happened 10 years ago" or "oh those people just hate Bio games for no reason", well... I'm sure that's true for some people, but I find that a rather irrational and unreasonable stance.

 

 

 

 

Tigranes let me ask you a different question because you a reasonable person who I believe who will ruminate on the question and then answer honestly

 

This dislike of Bioware I understand can be perfectly justified for some people, but how much of this dislike do you think is really motivated by the fact that Bioware has been one of the first companies to challenge traditional gaming "norms" and be really inclusive for their fanbase 

 

So in other words they have gay characters and optional gay Romance options. Do you not think this is another factor to the whole fall of Bioware in the eyes of some of the previous fans? I doubt people would admit this but I believe this is a contributing reason?

 

 

You could have gay/lesbian marriage already in Fallout 2 and a "romance/relationship" in ToEE as well, long before Bioware. And I do not see anyone hating on these two games for that reason. Saying that people are hating on Bioware only because they are homophobes is imo kind of naive...

[Sensuki]

The RPGCodex has an openly fabulous moderator. Not once have I seen someone call him out for being gay, but I have seen people challenge his point of view on RPGs.

 

The Codex doesn't give a flying f@@k who you are, or where you come from - but you better be prepared to discuss RPGs if you're going to post.

[Marcvs Caesar]

Why did people like D:OS? That game was boring, definitely overrated.

 

Those guys were pretty harsh on DA:I--it's listed 47th. Lots of Bioware haters, I guess.

 

What you mean the annoying quasi-MMO made by EAware? It's hard to understand how RPG players can say they liked that game.

[Rostere]

Codex is just trying to expunge the 'shame' of voting DAO as RPGOTY 2009 by being mean to DAI. Secretly they love it, its thread is the longest/ most continuous RPG thread as compared to the others on the list and there's lots of people playing and discuss!ng the game. Though no doubt they're really just playing it 7 times just to make sure it really is bad.

 

Codex hate for Bioware goes way longer back than that.

 

I haven't played it, but from what I've read DA:I looks like a pretty awful game through and through. Anyway I've sworn to not buy any Bioware games since NWN came out. I find it hard to believe that many people who hang out at the Codex like DA:I but as you say, that thread is pretty indicting. TBH I think it is a subset of Codexers and that they should create a Biodrone/Beteshtard subforum so that the rest of us won't have to deal with them.

[sorophx]

The RPGCodex has an openly fabulous moderator. Not once have I seen someone call him out for being gay, but I have seen people challenge his point of view on RPGs.

 

The Codex doesn't give a flying f@@k who you are, or where you come from - but you better be prepared to discuss RPGs if you're going to post.

not true on both accounts. and no, I won't provide a prooflink, I don't keep an RPGCodex.txt, but I've seen stuff you mention happen

[Gorth]

@Bruce:

 

One mans inclusiveness is another mans catering for lowest common denominator. As somebody who enjoyed the "middle half" of ME3 and didn't even bother looking at reviews of DA:I, I probably fall in the latter category. It's like they got the point where you *feel* that their games are developed from analyzing their datamining, working of checklists with flavour of the year gimmicks and general mandatory subjects that has to be covered in order to cover the largest multifaceted demographic as possble (translation: maximizing revenue). It feels less inspired and more like games developed by committee. Nice visuals, but short on visions.

 

[/grumpy old man]

[Leferd]

 

The RPGCodex has an openly fabulous moderator. Not once have I seen someone call him out for being gay, but I have seen people challenge his point of view on RPGs.

The Codex doesn't give a flying f@@k who you are, or where you come from - but you better be prepared to discuss RPGs if you're going to post.

 

not true on both accounts. and no, I won't provide a prooflink, I don't keep an RPGCodex.txt, but I've seen stuff you mention happen

 

The RPGCodex has an openly fabulous moderator. Not once have I seen someone call him out for being gay, but I have seen people challenge his point of view on RPGs.

The Codex doesn't give a flying f@@k who you are, or where you come from - but you better be prepared to discuss RPGs if you're going to post.

 

not true on both accounts. and no, I won't provide a prooflink, I don't keep an RPGCodex.txt, but I've seen stuff you mention happen

Well, certain codexians will equally call you out for both your ideas and on who you are. Very little is really off limits. It's not quite at 4chan levels, but it has gone down that road at times.

[BruceVC]

@Bruce:

 

One mans inclusiveness is another mans catering for lowest common denominator. As somebody who enjoyed the "middle half" of ME3 and didn't even bother looking at reviews of DA:I, I probably fall in the latter category. It's like they got the point where you *feel* that their games are developed from analyzing their datamining, working of checklists with flavour of the year gimmicks and general mandatory subjects that has to be covered in order to cover the largest multifaceted demographic as possble (translation: maximizing revenue). It feels less inspired and more like games developed by committee. Nice visuals, but short on visions.

 

[/grumpy old man]

 

I don't often dispute the erudition  and omnipotence of the fabled and great Gorthfucius but this may be one of those times 

 

But I get your reasons, I just don't completely agree with them. For me inspiration can be so subjective, it would be very difficult to agree on what really makes a game inspiring ?

[Rostere]

RPG Codex is everything you would expect from a liberally moderated forum. Old gamers are "oldfags", new gamers are "newfags", forum smileys with racist stereotypes, and so on. In other words, lots of fun if you have thick skin, but the General Discussions forums are a honeypot for racism and pretty much everything you can imagine which would be deleted from the WOT sub-forum here. Just stay away from that part and I'm sure you will have a good time at the Codex.

[Nonek]

Strange that Bioware heralds it gay relationships as a great, new and innovative feature when in Ultima VII you could be straight, gay, lesbian or rendered virginal because of planar travel, and not much was mentioned of this feature. That was twenty years ago, but now it is innovative and pioneering? Have we always been at war with Eurasia?

[BruceVC]

Strange that Bioware heralds it gay relationships as a great, new and innovative feature when in Ultima VII you could be straight, gay, lesbian or rendered virginal because of planar travel, and not much was mentioned of this feature. That was twenty years ago, but now it is innovative and pioneering? Have we always been at war with Eurasia?

Yes Nonek but Bioware did something much more profound and revolutionary than Ultima VII, they  implemented optional gay Romance. This was always a very controversial issue ..so we need to salute them for the risk they took. I'm glad it paid off   

Edited January 14, 2015 by BruceVC

[rjshae]

RPG Codex is everything you would expect from a liberally moderated forum. Old gamers are "oldfags", new gamers are "newfags", forum smileys with racist stereotypes, and so on. In other words, lots of fun if you have thick skin, but the General Discussions forums are a honeypot for racism and pretty much everything you can imagine which would be deleted from the WOT sub-forum here. Just stay away from that part and I'm sure you will have a good time at the Codex.

 

Overall I found it to be a fetid stew of acerbic grumbling, unchecked profanity, and hyperbolic negativity. At this point, I don't take their opinions too seriously because they aren't representative of what I enjoy. But they do put out the occasional interesting review.

[Nonek]

 

Strange that Bioware heralds it gay relationships as a great, new and innovative feature when in Ultima VII you could be straight, gay, lesbian or rendered virginal because of planar travel, and not much was mentioned of this feature. That was twenty years ago, but now it is innovative and pioneering? Have we always been at war with Eurasia?

 

Yes Nonek but Bioware did something much more profound and revolutionary than Ultima VII, they  implemented optional gay Romance. This was always a very controversial issue ..so we need to salute them for the risk they took. I'm glad it paid off   

 

 

Are you losing the ability to read Bruce, or just comprehend? Ultima did this twenty plus years ago, I can't explain that any more simply. It was not a controversial issue or deemed worthy of saluting then, somebody copying them twenty years later is hardly worthy of comment.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Nonek

[Rostere]

 

RPG Codex is everything you would expect from a liberally moderated forum. Old gamers are "oldfags", new gamers are "newfags", forum smileys with racist stereotypes, and so on. In other words, lots of fun if you have thick skin, but the General Discussions forums are a honeypot for racism and pretty much everything you can imagine which would be deleted from the WOT sub-forum here. Just stay away from that part and I'm sure you will have a good time at the Codex.

 

Overall I found it to be a fetid stew of acerbic grumbling, unchecked profanity, and hyperbolic negativity. At this point, I don't take their opinions too seriously because they aren't representative of what I enjoy. But they do put out the occasional interesting review.

 

The negativity is like a language you will have to learn to interpret. But yeah, it's fun when people are spewing venom on ****ty new games, but when the Codex negativity reaches classics like Arcanum and PST I can also find it a little bit unwarranted.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Strange that Bioware heralds it gay relationships as a great, new and innovative feature when in Ultima VII you could be straight, gay, lesbian or rendered virginal because of planar travel, and not much was mentioned of this feature. That was twenty years ago, but now it is innovative and pioneering? Have we always been at war with Eurasia?

 

Yes Nonek but Bioware did something much more profound and revolutionary than Ultima VII, they  implemented optional gay Romance. This was always a very controversial issue ..so we need to salute them for the risk they took. I'm glad it paid off   

 

 

Are you losing the ability to read Bruce, or just comprehend? Ultima did this twenty plus years ago, I can't explain that any more simply. It was not a controversial issue or deemed worthy of saluting then, somebody copying them twenty years later is hardly worthy of comment.

 

 

Oh, are you saying Ulitma VII has Romance? I thought you were saying you could just choose to be gay ?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The codex is pretty much /v/ light with namefags.

 

I'll stick to /v/.

[Nonek]

 

 

Oh, are you saying Ulitma VII has Romance? I thought you were saying you could just choose to be gay ?

 

 

Yes they have romances and sex. Good Lord it's like talking to a gibbon, I think i've had enough of trying to do so.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Nonek