Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)

[Sonntam]

 

 

I really dislike the Save or Reload mechanisms.

Poison was save or die in early D&D, was later fixed for better.

 

Flashback to 1984 or thereabouts. Our first ever AD&D session. I was voted DM. We spent an entire Sunday lovingly crafting our characters. Even carefully drew portraits to the best of our ability. Then we set out for Adventure, using some prepared module, don't even remember what. Miraculously the party survives the first encounter with goblins or something. There's a chest. The thief checks for traps. I secretly roll, like, a 3. No traps found. He opens it. "As you open it, a small needle flicks out of the lock and jabs you in the wrist. Roll a saving throw against Poison." It's another 2 or 3. "Uh... well, you're dead I guess. Wanna roll a new character?"

 

That... was not fun.

 

It is also conceivable that at least a part of my aversion for save-or-die mechanics can be traced down to that incident. Young minds are impressionable after all.

 

If you get a plank of wood and set it on the floor to walk on it, it still feels like you're walking on the floor.  If you use that same plank of wood to bridge a gap that would surely kill you if you fell, the walk across it wouldn't feel like you're walking on the floor in the same way.  The plank is the same, the balance is the same, but the only difference is the thought that "if you take one step to either side you will die" and that changes the experience.

 

I think that playing a game with the intention of having a "magical journey with ups and downs" isn't truly possible unless the chance of defeat is looming around.  It's difficult for a lot of people to understand (I've seen countless arguments about how "hardcore" mode in video games is pointless by people who don't understand the concept of danger I'm talking about) and the feeling you get from overcoming obstacles and challenges is the thrill that some of us seek.

 

Baldur's Gate has a million ways to die, and a million ways to succeed.  Just like comparing the variables of mortality in real life, it's a fun way to emulate how dangerous and thrilling life might have been in those times.  If you consider the concept of dying in anyway to be unfair then that's already overlooking the intent of the game's design.

 

I think main point why it feels so unfair, is how arbitrary it feels. You wouldn't exactly expect to be able to die from looting a chest. It's anticlimatic and boring.

 

Same goes for BG2. You don't necessarily know which enemies to expect, what their resistances are and in which way you should have prepared. This means you have to reload a lot, try to find weaknesses for enemies (which then make the enemy often absolutely trivial) or just google the solution. 

 

It doesn't feel like skill to me. More like puzzle solving in adventure games where you just use every item on everything and hope it will let you progress. (Or you google a walkthrough.)

 

I like being able to plan in advance and with BG2 planning in advance means... well, go and read a DnD guidebook. 

[Guest 4ward]

@PrimeJunta

Have you done the Planar Sphere already? It's one of my favourite things to do in BG2, what do you think of the Planar Sphere, the fights, riddles there and also the battle against 'Mr. T.' ?

[Luckmann]

I think main point why it feels so unfair, is how arbitrary it feels. You wouldn't exactly expect to be able to die from looting a chest. It's anticlimatic and boring.

 

[...]

 

And that's exactly the kind of sentiment that poisons modern gaming. Why on earth would you not expect to be able to die from looting a chest? You should absolutely expect to die from looting a chest.

 

Instead of games teaching us to be careful, manage our resources, come up with tactics and strategies, expect the unexpected, we get Skyrim-esque hand-holding where we know that it's perfectly alright not to care about the traps at all, because there's no chance that they'll kill you right away anyway. If they are about to kill you, it makes sure to warn you repeatedly, so you have all the time in the world to eat fifteen cheese wheels.

 

I'll take "anticlimactic and boring" gameplay that actually matters, over suspension-less hand-holding, affirmative action no-child-left-behind casualisation where nothing matters, any day of the week.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Luckmann

[TheisEjsing]

We all get tired of Irenicus dungeon. But first time I played it. It was AWESOME! The reflecting pools with the history and future of the world. The trap room. The genie. The dryads. Imoens comments on the test tubes, the library and on the duegars. The clones. Khalids death (HELL YEAH!) and so on. It was so cool, but after 20 runs, it gets abit repetitive. ^_^ If PoE can give me a first hour like that, I won't be able to think critically for the rest of the game. =)

Edited January 12, 2015 by TheisEjsing

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

Edit: and to make this relevant to the forum: I certainly hope PoE allows for such role mutations. Because there's nothing more dull than games that don't - Games that adhere to the catastrophic MMO philosophy where all classes have strict combat roles and any deviation means Build failure/You're hopelessly underpowered because you're 'playing your class wrong'.

I would really hope so too, but honestly, I'm not getting my hopes up on that. I feel as if the more I learn, the more it seems that Sawyer's general design philosophy is that if you don't play it as he and his clique intended, you're playing it wrong. I would not worry overly much, though, because odds are there'll be some visible or invisible wall preventing you from even considering doing whatever you were first considering.

 

But I'm not bitter or anything.

 

 

• Can you backstab with ranged weapons in BG2? Specifically, Shortbows.
• Do you get the bonus to hit while in Stealth, with ranged weapons? Specifically, Shortbows.

No and No. lol

 

For some reason, I knew that those were the answers, I just wanted to make sure.

 

And that's actually one thing I'm looking forward to PoE for. Rogues can do their Sneak attacks/Deathblows/Critical strikes with any weapon. That's really sweet when you think about it.

On one hand, absolutely agree with you on that. There's already some fantastic freedom in the PoE character creation/build system, with many class combinations being able to do a mountain of different things. Some are still notably lacking somewhat in some regards (I'm looking at you, Ranger), while others are hilariously fantastic in allowing builds you'd normally not even consider (Priests of Skaen, woo; why can't Priests of Magran be as cool pseudo-fighters, ranged or no?).

 

On the other hand, I can see how *some* weapons would have trouble doing backstabs, like greatswords, or blunderbuss. But not being able to do ranged backstabs in the IE games is just BS; I know later DnD games fixed this. I'm almost sad to see multiclassing go, I'd love to go for a stealthy arcane archer approach with backstabbing.

 

We all get tired of Irenicus dungeon. But first time I played it. It was AWESOME! The reflecting pools with the history and future of the world. The trap room. The genie. The dryads. Imoens comments on the test tubes, the library and on the duegars. The clones. Khalids death (HELL YEAH!) and so on. It was so cool, but after 20 runs, it gets abit repetitive. ^_^ If PoE can give me a first hour like that, I won't be able to think critically for the rest of the game. =)

I really liked the dungeon the first time 'round too. But after that, it becomes a real chore, even for the 2nd go, let alone the 20th. While it'd be fun if PoE offered something as good for the first time you boot it up, I really hope it doesn't feel as constrained and "Sigh, not this BS again", for subsequent runs.

 

I really love BG2, but the way it starts - first dropping you in that dungeon, right away, and then introducing you to the extremely content-dense Athkatla where everyone just dumps everything on their mind in your lap, and then you can't even get proper wilderness areas for breathing room - that.. was not the best design decision.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Luckmann

[500MetricTonnes]

 

I think main point why it feels so unfair, is how arbitrary it feels. You wouldn't exactly expect to be able to die from looting a chest. It's anticlimatic and boring.

 

[...]

 

And that's exactly the kind of sentiment that poisons modern gaming. Why on earth would you not expect to be able to die from looting a chest? You should absolutely expect to die from looting a chest.

 

Instead of games teaching us to be careful, manage our resources, come up with tactics and strategies, expect the unexpected, we get Skyrim-esque hand-holding where we know that it's perfectly alright not to care about the traps at all, because there's no chance that they'll kill you right away anyway. If they are about to kill you, it makes sure to warn you repeatedly, so you have all the time in the world to eat fifteen cheese wheels.

 

I'll take "anticlimactic and boring" gameplay that actually matters, over suspension-less hand-holding, affirmative action no-child-left-behind casualisation where nothing matters, any day of the week.

 

Precisely. If you cannot fail, you cannot succeed. A great many modern games will do everything in their power, short of making you completely invulnerable, to prevent you from failing. Regenerating health in shooters is a good example.

 

This is getting a touch off-topic, but I think part of the problem is developers' insistence on making games akin to movies and focussing on delivering a "cinematic experience." Unfortunately, this approach fails to take into consideration that games are an interactive medium, with the possibility for the main character to fail. Consider the opening scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark:

 

- Indy is chased by giant boulder. He stumbles and falls. Indy is crushed into a fine paste.

- The scene starts again. Indy runs from the giant boulder, but falls into a spike-lined pit and dies.

- The scenes starts again for a third time. Indy outruns the giant boulder, avoids the spike pit, and finally escapes the tomb. Success!

 

Now, would this scene have anywhere near the same impact as the one in the original film? No, because the constant repetition, due to the fact that Indy can fail, completely destroys the pacing. So in order to maintain the "cinematic experience," the developers can either A: make the game so easy that failing is next to impossible, or B: yank control away from the player altogether and make the setpiece into a non-interactive cutscene.

 

Which leads us directly to games like Mass Effect 3, which so desperately wants to be some Hollywood sci-fi epic, with Hollywood-level voice talent, sweeping camera angles, and the obligatory sad piano music during those oh-so-poignant moments where beloved characters nobly sacrifice themselves for the cause. It almost feels ashamed of being a game, with the actual gameplay being little more than mindless filler between cutscenes.

 

There's a reason why so many of us prefer older games, and it's not "nostalgia" or being "unable to accept change," so some people might claim. No, it's because the older games offered depth, complexity, and most importantly, challenge, thus yielding a sense of satisfaction when that challenge was overcome.

Edited January 12, 2015 by 500MetricTonnes

[Enoch]

And you, yourself, are gonna learn quite a bit by going through this game with a 3 person party, btw. What's that saying? Necessity is the mother of invention? Yeah, that's how it is in BG2. If you lack a fighter (for example), you'll instinctively discover all the ways to turn your cleric and mage into tanks. If you lack a mage, you'll find yourself figuring out ways to turn your Fighter into a battlefield nuker etc. etc.

Edit: and to make this relevant to the forum: I certainly hope PoE allows for such role mutations. Because there's nothing more dull than games that don't - Games that adhere to the catastrophic MMO philosophy where all classes have strict combat roles and any deviation means Build failure/You're hopelessly underpowered because you're 'playing your class wrong'.

 

The problem I have with this view is that it goes hand-in-hand with the fact that BG2 is a Monte-Hall campaign in an AD&D ruleset wherein the primary factors that determine the effectiveness of your character are mostly gear-driven.  You can find ways to do everything in the game, largely because the game throws such ridiculous quantities of powerful magical kit at you. 

 

I'd like there to be more to my character creation/development decisions than which pair of boots to put on.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Enoch

[Stun]

Yes. Terrible. Terrible. And Ridiculous. It's quite the problem, too. Because, um... the game would be better if the loot was a little more forgettable and mundane and a little less... memorable, colorful, useful, and ripped straight out of the DM's guide.

 

....And if there was less of it. Celestial Fury shouldn't exist (for example). let those foolish katana specialists suffer their mediocre build choices. Get rid of the Staff of the Magi and the Robe of Vecna too. Mages should use their spells and be content with them alone. And don't get me started on Carsomyr. Why the hell should the Paladin class get a friggin Holy Avenger, anyway? What is this? Fantasy? Bluh. And Crom Faeyr.... For the love of God, if you're going to make an end game weapon, make sure it's not a legendary and celebrated Warhammer that instakills trash mobs and gives you the same strength as a Cleric's Draw upon Holy Might. Because that's just...Monte Hall.

 

 

 

Hands off my BG2 Loot dropping, Modern gamer. BG2 did it right and no other game has come close since.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

First off, interim report on today's session. 

 

I gave some orders at the thieves' guild, then, curious about that government job, I went to see the wizard at the ministry. Took on a simple enough bounty on some nobleman that had annoyed them. Followed the breadcrumb trail out of Athkatla to the Umar Hills place where there was that rather easy quest, faffed about a bit there, running some errands for the mayor but not going to that temple, and eventually found him in a shack on an escarpment. He explained that the Cowled Mages were really after his blood in order to get into something called 'the Planar Sphere,' so naturally I murdered him and used his corpse to get in there myself.

 

Then all kinds of fun ensued.

 

This was probably my favorite part of the game so far. Great set-piece battles, great variety, exciting maps. The only thing I didn't care for in the Sphere was the puzzle with the symbols on the floor. I couldn't find any clues to it, so I just trial-and-errored it. Got it right on my second try, but that was pure luck. Anyway, that was grand.

 

Oh, and, I beat that necromancer without prepping for it. Had used my anti-caster spells against the halfling mages, so I had to fall back on scrolls. Fortunately I had one scroll of Breach and another of... something or other, and Viconia hadn't used up her Aerial Servant, so it wasn't that hard even if it took me a few tries. (Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting... ouch.)

 

Also Viconia finally got some gauntlets that put her STR up to 18/00 so she can equip some decent heavy gear. With her self-buffs she becomes a quite a force of destruction in melee as well, if necessary. That makes me happy.

 

Don't care much for the Thieves' Guild gameplay. The gold amounts are so piddling that I don't have much incentive to care. I'm up nearly a thousand GP though with two rounds of it. That's almost 1/50 of my current bank balance, so woo-hoo. It does put a gentle time pressure on other questing, though, which is good because it makes me watch my resting. I had to "cheat" (by my twisted standards) in the Sphere once, because I got caught with my pants down by that annoying Cowled Wizard, so I reloaded, loaded up some casterfight magic, and proceeded to reduce them to their component atoms. (That one was a legit suckerpunch. Took me completely by surprise, and I honestly can't imagine how I could've been expected to prep for a casterfight there. I didn't get mad though 'cuz I'm starting to accept that that's just the way this game rolls -- Stun describing it more like basketball than a movie was... enlightening.)

 

Some further comments.

 

One. This style of playing is growing on me. I've stopped caring what my characters are "supposed" to know, and prep according to what I know. It is more fun this way. 

 

Two. A long time ago, Stun insisted that you do not need metagame knowledge to play this, that there are no suckerpunches, and if I think so, that's just because I suck. I still disagree with him about that. In fact, I'm starting to feel more and more strongly that metagame knowledge is the whole damn point. You play and play, practice and practice, learn more and more, and it gets easier and easier. Some of that knowledge is in-game. Most of it is metagame: who's gonna attack you where, where the traps are, where you're gonna find the cool gear that makes life easier for any given stretch of it.

 

Three. I am beginning to see the appeal of that. It's the same appeal as in NetHack, where you play over and over and over, get deeper and deeper and deeper, and find all kinds of tricks and twists that let you survive. 

 

(I have a "but" on that, but I'm pretty sure you guys can already guess what it is, so I won't repeat it here.)

 

As to save-or-die... it has its place. There is such a thing as too much of it though. I still think the IE engine gameplay would be more enjoyable if somehow the order of things -- specifically magic -- mattered a little less. As it is, the magic system mechanically favors the attacker: if you get your attack to bite first, the other guy is not going to be able to cast, and you win. Which is why they put in all these spell triggers and contingencies, to make things more interesting.

 

I'm going to have to do some research on mage battles in BG2 actually. I found one obvious way to beat them -- send in a summons, preferably immune to as much stuff as they'll lob at you, so they'll fire the offensive spells at them, during that time zap Breaches and what have you at them, then send Korgan to finish the job. Easy-peasy. But since Stun, Sensuki and others have said that there are many, many other ways to do them, I'll have to study up a bit. 'Cuz I'm getting curious. 

 

I'm a little concerned about this in P:E actually. If it won't have similar things, suppressing mages will be trivially easy -- you just assign someone to a high-Interrupt, fast attacking ranged weapon, ideally give him a few Interrupt buffs or talents, and plink away. No way they're gonna get a spell off. That's certainly the way it works in the BB's only magefight. (Except that if you're rocking firearms, you'll also gib him in the first volley.)

Edited January 12, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Flow]

I'm curious if any of you BG2 grogs play while deliberately never using Breach. Fantastic spell, but has always seemed crazy OP to me.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Flow

[Sensuki]

I've never skipped Irenicus' Dungeon lol. I always fully complete it every time

 

And yeah, casters (Wizards specifically) are going to suck in PE. They are so easy to take down in the beta, it's hilariously disappointing.

[PrimeJunta]

One more thing: there's one way I can tell I'm getting better at this.

 

I'm using up most of my spells.

 

I rest when (1) I'm running low on potions -- I like to keep about 3 Extra Healing per head --, and (2) Viconia's out of heals. Before, I usually had most of my spell battery still unused at this point. Now, I've usually used more than half, and most of the ones I've used are the higher-level ones. I'm also getting further between rests. I think I rested three times in the Sphere: once before the halflings (changed my loadout to be more anti-caster), once before the demon hunt (got several demon hearts! I think I'll have them pickled and exhibited on my wall), and once before the Tolgerias fight.

 

I can tell that overcoming my hoarding instinct -- for spells, consumables, what have you -- is also contributing greatly to the fun.

[Stun]

I'm curious if any of you BG2 grogs play while deliberately never using Breach. Fantastic spell, but has always seemed crazy OP to me.

I've done it. It's not all that "crazy hard". In fact, in retrospect, Breach feels like the emergency brake on an Automatic (unnecessary in general)... Or like something they tacked on at the last minute as if realizing that some people might not like mage duels.

 

Lets take a closer look at the mechanics here. Enemy mages protect themselves from melee attacks in the following ways.

1) Protection from Magic weapons

2) Protection from Normal weapons

3) Mantle

4) Improved Mantle

5) Stoneskin

6) Mirror Image

7) Improved invisibility/Mislead/Shadow Door

8.) Any combination of the above.

 

The Purpose of Breach is to cut through all of these instantly. But what if the player wants to duel the mage?

 

First, the best protections on the list (1, 3 and 4) have laughably Sawyeristic durations (ie. Short. 4 rounds... or 24 seconds) and simply waiting them out is not all that unreasonable. (and it's what you have to do against Liches anyway...who are immune to breach) Second, many many weapons in this game cut right through stoneskins, mirror images and mantles. (Flail of the Ages), while others can still totally disable the mage even if they fail to penetrate his melee protections (Celestial Fury, Staff of the Ram) Third, any sort of invisibility becomes moot against a meleer the millisecond the enemy tries to cast a spell.

 

And then there's Carsomyr (Dispell on Hit), the Staff of the Magi (Dispel on hit), and melee hits from the elemental princes and celestials (Dispell, Dispell + Vorpal) that Druids and Mages (respectively) get later on, that render enemy Wizard protections (melee or otherwise) trivial.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Stun

[Luckmann]

I honestly never really used Breach much. Most dispelling is largely unnecessary with the exception of very select protections that are just party-boning unless you remove them.

 

I've never skipped Irenicus' Dungeon lol. I always fully complete it every time

 

And yeah, casters (Wizards specifically) are going to suck in PE. They are so easy to take down in the beta, it's hilariously disappointing.

"I CAN BEND REALITY BY RITUAL AND WORD, THE POWERS OF CREATION AND UNDOING, I WILL NOT - !"

 

*thwack*

 

"- STOP IT, I AM THE STO -"

 

*thwack*

 

"Aughck!"

 

 

Kidding aside, that's pretty damn sad. Anyone going into this expecting IE wizardry (or spellcasting at all, really, divine or arcane) is going to be so insanely underwhelmed.

 

Edited January 12, 2015 by Luckmann

[archangel979]

I've never skipped Irenicus' Dungeon lol. I always fully complete it every time

 

And yeah, casters (Wizards specifically) are going to suck in PE. They are so easy to take down in the beta, it's hilariously disappointing.

I have played BG1 more than BG2 and fighting spellcasters is much much easier at levels 4-5 and beyond than what Bg2 has. PoE is just replicating BG1 in that regard if it is as easy as you say.

 

@Stun

you forgot Dispel Magic, Remove Magic and so many anti magic potions that let you stand there and laugh at mages.

But Breach is what I use most of the time.

Also a nice little trick is to carry a non-magical weapon and switch to it once enemy caster casts Prot from Magical Weapons

As for invisibility, a lvl 2 spell for wizards or lvl 3 for clerics solves that.

Edited January 12, 2015 by archangel979

[Stun]

Don't care much for the Thieves' Guild gameplay.

Hahaha. You picked the wrong stronghold. It's the only one that sucks. It's....empty. It has no quests.

 

The best ones are the Mage Stronghold, the Bard Stronghold and the Fighter stronghold.

[wuss]

 

I had to "cheat" (by my twisted standards) in the Sphere once, because I got caught with my pants down by that annoying Cowled Wizard, so I reloaded, loaded up some casterfight magic, and proceeded to reduce them to their component atoms.

Most elegant way to deal with the crowled wizard as a thief:

1) pick his pockets while invisible to get ring of the ram

2) plant trap outside of his visual range

3) backstab him

4) use ring of the ram to throw him into your trap

[Malekith]

PrimeJunta, on 12 Jan 2015 - 11:19 PM, said:

 

I'm going to have to do some research on mage battles in BG2 actually. I found one obvious way to beat them -- send in a summons, preferably immune to as much stuff as they'll lob at you, so they'll fire the offensive spells at them, during that time zap Breaches and what have you at them, then send Korgan to finish the job. Easy-peasy. But since Stun, Sensuki and others have said that there are many, many other ways to do them, I'll have to study up a bit. 'Cuz I'm getting curious. 

 

Later on more powerfull mages will just cast Death Spell (kills all summoned creatures instantly) if you summon anything.

[LadyCrimson]

Outside of area design, fighting groups of mages that had their bubbles of immunity or whatever they were is one of the few things I kind of vaguely remember about BG2 (I didn't play it much/for long, mind). Stepping out of some inn, being confronted be a police force of mages or something, deciding to say "haha screw you" and suddenly being in a fight for my life that seemed to last forever.

 

Good times.

 

Sort of.

[tdphys]

I just finished a magic heavy  lawful good party , swashbuckler halfling, minsc (2handed sword), mazzy (flail of ages),  Nalia, Aerie , Imoen.

 

There was a lot of breaching done.   Also reloads when a stray death spell whacked my character.   I actually lost minsc to a petrify spell in the beholders lair.  That was okay because I picked up Sarevok in ToB.   

 

Waiting for invis to come off of mages so I can target them is the worst part of mage battles (I never figured out how to dispel the high level ones).   Save or die spells is the second,  I bailed on the lich in the sewers.   It just seems lame to me to drop summons in front and let the AI blow itself out.  I don't know how anyone finds that immersive.

 

I'm starting again,  chaotic neutral mage that I'm going to dual-class into a wizard slayer (I know,  wrong way), just to dimension door next to those mages and wreak havoc.  I'm going to try to do most of the game with just Viconia and Edwin when I dual.

 

BG2 is awesome because of its depth and complexity.  I don't know how I'd play it without the 10 years or so of forum and RPG write-ups.    I tried once about 8 years ago and just threw my hands up at Irenicus' dungeon.   Now I'm playing while I wait for POE.  I think that alot of the passion for Baldur's gate comes from building up the arcane knowledge required to excel, exploit and enjoy the game.  It's like using the vim text editor, or linux for that matter.   It's cool cause so few people now how to use it, and the knowledge of it empowers you in certain ways.   

 

 There's alot of stuff that could be done better than in BG2.   I'm assuming POE will be better in some ways then BG2 and less then others.  I don't doubt it will be worth playing.   The hope is that it spawns a series of games that rebuilds the genre and puts time into innovating in AI and fantasy world simulation / role-playing,  that would be phenomenal.

 

I want BG2 merged with IWD and dwarf fortress.    I want amazing procedural quests,  reactive tactical AI,  real faction responses,  global wars affected by your choices  and a myriad of endings.   

Edited January 13, 2015 by tdphys

[PrimeJunta]

@Stun: How can you tell that a weapon's gonna cut through any or all of those protections? Trial and error, or is there a rule to it? Elemental damage?

 

@Malekith: Do they have more than one Death Spell? If not, it should be easy to just summon another one.

 

I haven't actually experimented with traps at all. Only put points into Set Trap at my last levelup. Should probably study up and explore that mechanic somewhat.

 

I have been backstabbing. I'm probably missing something as I'm not finding it all that useful. The damage is somewhat underwhelming compared to the time it takes to apply it. Should I be using it in magefights as an opening move?

[PrimeJunta]

I want BG2 merged with IWD and dwarf fortress.    I want amazing procedural quests,  reactive tactical AI,  real faction responses,  global wars affected by your choices  and a myriad of endings.   

 

I kinda agree with this. Clearly BG2 is a game where the real appeal is learning to master it. A game with static content -- same areas, same quests, same enemies, same placed items -- is not an ideal format for this IMO. At least I do not find it engaging to run through the same content multiple times. Procedurally-generated content is different every time and it keeps fresh.

 

It ought to be possible to combine human-written and procedurally-generated stuff. For example, human-written party members, main antagonists, and some other NPC's, in a procedurally-generated world, with main story arcs human-written but the intermediate quests procedurally-generated, or at least heavily "randomized." These characters could have their own story arcs that take them into particular areas search for particular McGuffins, but the areas themselves could well be procedurally generated. Dwarf Fortress with some character writing on top.

[PrimeJunta]

Kidding aside, that's pretty damn sad. Anyone going into this expecting IE wizardry (or spellcasting at all, really, divine or arcane) is going to be so insanely underwhelmed.

 

It depends on what you think of as IE wizardry. I suspect a lot of people went through these using nothing much more complicated than Fireball. 

 

I've been mulling that idea of mine about counterspells. It ought to be possible and not even terribly difficult to mod P:E's spell system like so:

• Extend spell durations so counters become necessary.
• Add "X counters Y" effect to spells where appropriate, e.g. "Fleet Feet -- counters Slowed and Hobbled"
• Modify the AI so it'll use the counters sensibly
• Where appropriate, add dedicated counters or dispels

It wouldn't be the same of course but it would be more interesting I think.

[Sensuki]

I agree with that notion. The system would be MUCH more interesting if it worked like that.

[Jarmo]

 

I want BG2 merged with IWD and dwarf fortress.    I want amazing procedural quests,  reactive tactical AI,  real faction responses,  global wars affected by your choices  and a myriad of endings.   

 

I kinda agree with this. Clearly BG2 is a game where the real appeal is learning to master it. A game with static content -- same areas, same quests, same enemies, same placed items -- is not an ideal format for this IMO. At least I do not find it engaging to run through the same content multiple times. Procedurally-generated content is different every time and it keeps fresh.

 

 

That's why Neverwinter Nights was so darn brilliant.

Master the gameplay and character creation, endless adventures by the 10 thousand hand crafted modules in NWN Vault.

(Lot's of crap but also lots of fantastic stuff).

 

Shame PoE doesn't appear to support modding.

Still wonder if it'd be possible to mod if one acquires some version of Unity.

Wouldn't be a humongous investment compared to having 3D software and spending a thousand hours of time.