Disappointing combat in 392

[mithrandir3]

Hello and happy new year! Let's say first before being shred to pieces that I think that the ambiance, the quests, and the dialog system are really excellent in the Beta. I also think that the UI has made a lot of progress, and I did not encounter any game breaking bug as for previous builds.

 

But even if Obsidian improved the combat system a lot, combat is still disappointing for me:

- the engagement rules lead to very static positions, and added with the fact that lisibility is still problematic in a lot of cases, it leads to combats where it is often difficult to know exactly what's going on

- an example is the down characters, which are very difficult to separate from the background

- there are very few links between the character portraits and the characters themselves in game. For example, if a character is in the red, it is not easy to see which one. Selecting the portrait should have the same result as selecting the character in game (knowing that this selection is not always successful)

- there are no scripts, which would not be a problem if the UI did to lead to archers for example going on contact in some cases where you only wanted them to attack from a distance (probably because of the selection area). I often end micromanaging everything and fighting the UI

- sometimes you don't see what action was affected to a character, and you don't know very well if your selection was successful

 

A lot of these problems are not really bugs per se, but they lead (for me) to very frustrating combats.

[PrimeJunta]

I agree on some of those, but disagree about others.

I like engagement. I like the way it stabilizes the battlefield in a way the IE battlefield never did, making flanking movements etc. actually doable. It's much less frantic and more tactical.

I agree about lisibility, to an extent. Many of the FX are way too obscuring; tall grass is also a problem. Moreso for prone characters, yes. It has been greatly improved over previous builds I've played though; most of the time it is possible to see what's going on. Please please tone down the FX, m'kay? If they're bright enough to hide something (like a fireball for example) they should be much shorter duration than now.

I haven't experienced the portrait/avatar link to be problematic. Clicking on a portrait does select the character.

I disagree about scripts. These were a later addition to the IE games, and it is IMO far better to design a game you actually have to play rather than one you set up to play itself.

I have not had the problem about action feedback since I started paying attention to what's in the little circle in the bar above the avatar. I would not object to having the same displayed as a portrait overlay though.

As to micromanagement, that depends a lot on the party composition. An all-monk party would get really frantic; it would probably only be playable in slow-motion, and even then with fairly frequent pausing. I find a party with one high-maintenance character and the rest low to medium maintenance to be pretty enjoyable to play as it is.

(Obligatory caveat -- in 392, Hard is way out of balance to be much fun. I'm digging Normal a lot though.)

[crackwise]

As to micromanagement, that depends a lot on the party composition. An all-monk party would get really frantic; it would probably only be playable in slow-motion, and even then with fairly frequent pausing. I find a party with one high-maintenance character and the rest low to medium maintenance to be pretty enjoyable to play as it is.

 

Well, that's why you actually need scripts, which can be turned on or off as optional (BG2 style). If you have a party of very high micromanagement nature as you have stated, you would at least like to have the option to assign some of the members some pre-defined scripts.

 

I think a DA:O style of scripting is pretty good actually. You can choose the conditions when specific abilities are used etc. and your character does so automatically. Of course it should be optional, but would definitely improve the game for those who don't like the tedious micromanagement.

[mithrandir3]

It is more a bug, but in some cases in combat, when I select a portrait, the game display the action icons for another character. Also for some actions the corresponding icon is not presented as selected even if you made the selection. And I did not see (as in BG for example) on the character portraits which ones had already a prepared action.

[Tartantyco]

I still feel like movement speed is too fast and view distance is too short.

 

Enemies are still rushing past the frontline without penalty, and any fast movement bonuses or abilities are devalued by the high movement speed, for the party and enemies alike. Offensive AOE spells are hard to use because it turns into a mosh pit so quickly. View distance further reinforces this by having engagements start so close.

 

Also, what's up with the Beetle engagements at Dyrford Crossing? There's like 8 beetles in each encounter on Normal.

[PrimeJunta]

The beetles do punch too hard, but other than that I disagree. Both movement speed and view distance feel just about right to me, and enemies certainly can't scoot past the front line without a penalty (unless they have special abilities, like the beetles' burrow). I also find it relatively easy to stop the fights from turning into a mosh pit, and AoE spells both useful and quite easy to use.

[Tartantyco]

Maybe it's just the enemy selection in the beta. The human encounters are fine, but I feel like all the beast enemies are universally fast.

 

Compared to BG, the LOS is pretty small in PoEt.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Tartantyco

[Clean&Clear]

The movement speed is too high, got this feeling both from the beta and from watching the recent stream, sometimes slow mode felt almost like the right speed and when Josh returned to normal it felt like fast forward mode.

 

Don't know about the LoS, it was bigger in the first versions of beta and it didn't feel good, but maybe it's been reduced too much.

[PrimeJunta]

It's not faster than in the IE games.

[Clean&Clear]

The ratios between character sizes, map sizes and particular combat area sizes are different, and in this circumstances the movement feels too fast IMO.

[Gladiuss8@gmail.com]

There are many reasons why it seems too fast. It's not only the speed intelf, but also the fact that it's 3D in 2D enviroment, as it makes unforeseen problems. Also, characters are just poorly animated, which may be caused by lack of money for putting more emphasis on such game elements. Obsidian chose dangerous road deciding that this game will go for 3D characters, and some problems will remain unsolved for sure. 

 

Putting any ammount of combat feedback in this game won't help the combat itself, because it will remain difficult to understand visually, as long as the characters look unnatural in combination with the background. Let's face it, 3D characters in the 2D enviroment just doesn't feel natural and it's visible all the way through the game. While looking at the background I'm astonished by the beautiful art they did, and then there are 3D characters which are just ruining it. And the combat is an apogee of how unnatural it all feels. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by Gladiuss8@gmail.com

[Lord Wafflebum]

I think it looks nice

[bleedthefreak]

I don't understand how anyone can think this game has any poor animations - that is a statement that makes me wonder what said folks consider "good" animations, because I feel like these look terrific.

 

Combat with engagement feels great, I do think view distance is fine, but movement speed should be lowered globally.

[Stun]

There are many reasons why it seems too fast. It's not only the speed intelf, but also the fact that it's 3D in 2D enviroment, as it makes unforeseen problems. Also, characters are just poorly animated, which may be caused by lack of money for putting more emphasis on such game elements. Obsidian chose dangerous road deciding that this game will go for 3D characters, and some problems will remain unsolved for sure. 

 

Putting any ammount of combat feedback in this game won't help the combat itself, because it will remain difficult to understand visually, as long as the characters look unnatural in combination with the background. Let's face it, 3D characters in the 2D enviroment just doesn't feel natural and it's visible all the way through the game. While looking at the background I'm astonished by the beautiful art they did, and then there are 3D characters which are just ruining it. And the combat is an apogee of how unnatural it all feels.

Interesting observation, but I'm not sure I agree. Temple of Elemental Evil is the other game that comes to mind that uses 3d characters in a 2d environment, and movement in that game (enemy or player party) does not seem "off" or "unnatural" or anything of the sort in it. Of course combat in that game is turn based, so the comparison ends the moment we discuss how things feel during battle.

 

 

I don't understand how anyone can think this game has any poor animations - that is a statement that makes me wonder what said folks consider "good" animations, because I feel like these look terrific.

The beta that we have is hit and miss with the animations. Firearm reloads are friggin great. As are the spear and pike attack animations. Walking animations are nice (better than the IE games) until you view your entire, multi-raced, multi-classed party walking at once, then it begins to look silly - way too synchronized.

 

But the other animations are quite dull (almost non-existent, in fact). Pay attention to BB Wizard or BB Priest as they cast spells.. it's Piss poor.

 

That all said, it apparently IS something that they're still working on, as we saw a ton of improved animations in Josh's stream the other day.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Stun

[Bli1942]

The 3D characters look nice to me now, I don't think that's an issue. The game is way too fast though, slightly faster than slow mode is where it needs to be...it looked like fast forward in the stream

[Gladiuss8@gmail.com]

You compared it to the Temple of Elemental Evil - yes, that's why I'm thinking lately, that PoE would be much better down the turn based combat road. While 3D characters are just acceptable outside the combat, they are also acceptable during turn based combat, because there was no texture overlapping, nothing like that. It was fine in ToEE. 

In Pillars of Eternity on the other hand, I think they didn't expect so many issues that are hard to resolve, and so we have to get along with this clunky combat. 

 

Many people say that it looks "nice", yeah it could be worse I guess, but it could also be MUCH much better. I was waiting for this game hoping that in 2015 it will be at least as good as Baldurs Gate. Of course, I will instantly buy this game on release and propably enjoy it much, but it could be done much better, design-wise.

[Sensuki]

The game WILL be slower in the next patch due to increased Endurance from CON @ 3%/point, lower damage across the board and no Accuracy from stats, which I think is a mistake, but anyway.

[Odd Hermit]

I still feel like movement speed is too fast and view distance is too short.

 

Enemies are still rushing past the frontline without penalty, and any fast movement bonuses or abilities are devalued by the high movement speed, for the party and enemies alike. Offensive AOE spells are hard to use because it turns into a mosh pit so quickly. View distance further reinforces this by having engagements start so close.

 

Also, what's up with the Beetle engagements at Dyrford Crossing? There's like 8 beetles in each encounter on Normal.

 

The beetles are rough, and I've been testing various builds on them since they're the easiest thing to rush out and test combat on.

 

I've been managing them best with the druid's large AoE root, and my druid has +45% duration on spells so that helps keep things under control. Brings me back to IWD times a bit TBH - I have everyone equipped with ranged weapons just plinking at rooted melee.

 

The beetles are extremely deadly in melee, but mostly helpless at range and don't seem to resist crowd control much. I'm on hard difficulty at the moment.

 

It took me a few wipes to figure out how to handle them though, trying to fight them "normally" would just end up in a hopeless mosh like you say - and of course the beetles almost automatically win if it gets that point.

 

The combat overall feels very promising compared to the last time I played the backer beta, and will definitely end up quite tactical if they get the numerical balancing along with the pacing of it figured out.

[wanderon]

I have not had much trouble with the Beatles except for that whole Paul is dead thing... 

 

Seriously tho I have not had much trouble with them in this build on normal - the oil slick is pretty much a win button for any fight which I'm sure will be nerfed at some point (next build perhaps) but even without it I've managed the beetle encounters without a party wipe even if I lose one or two to a knock out and that's with a variety of PCs and the BB crew plus 1. (Ranger, druid, cipher, priest).

 

Admittedly most of the time I start steathed and can employ some tactics and with a little work can keep away from the mass dogpile but I have occasionally just walked up on them also and let things develop as they will.

 

Same with the spiders for the most part - in fact combat seems to be shaping up pretty well overall (on normal) for me. 

[archangel979]

The game WILL be slower in the next patch due to increased Endurance from CON @ 3%/point, lower damage across the board and no Accuracy from stats, which I think is a mistake, but anyway.

So did it look slower to you based on two last streams that used unreleased beta version?