REAL Time... (with pause)

[Quadrone]

I wouldn't say it was never an option. A less likely one, perhaps. And/or, it'd be less likely that they'd be able to do it as close to ideally as would be, well... ideal.

 

 

True I guess, at some very early point better combat animations could have been an option. But not without making cuts to the overall scope of PoE, which would be the point of another discussion right about now, had Obsidian chosen to do so.

 

 

 

Imagine how far humanity would have come in anything if all we did was sit around nixing options to even discuss, much less attempt.

 

I don't want to live in the world where considering ideals alongside limitations is somehow frowned upon.

 

Meh, maybe I'm a stick in the mud, but isn't it pointless if the subject of said debate is already "set in stone"?

It is the objective truth that the devs already said that new features will not be put in, even avoided as BAdler said.

This isn't discussing something with a ton of possibilities yet open, like the future of deep space exploration but something very limited and defined. The game Pillars of Eternity, out in the next quarter, with the budget of $4 Mil., etc...

So why talk about features that will not, cannot see the light of day?

[Nakia]

Because there is always another game to be made or a plug-in.  Players expressing opinions and ideas do have some influence.

[PrimeJunta]

:skims through thread:

 

Serious business. 

[Lord Wafflebum]

I think it would be super to discuss what animations PoE might be missing, where they could be improved, etc. I think animations really help enhance the quality and feedback of the game. 

 

The discussion devolved because a couple of us dared mention the game is much more likely than not feature locked and new blocks of animation simply wouldn't be going into the game. Instead of a reply along the lines of, "Yeah, but I'd still like to try to get this out to the powers that be" we were raved at. To the former I would have said "Fair enough, here are my thoughts on that" and instead I allowed myself to become provoked and answer in a derogatory fashion that I'm none too proud of.

 

It's not that any of were trying to suppress a discussion, just trying to stay relevant and on-topic.

[Surface Reflection]

 

It devolved because a few of you are not capable of reading the OP where that is clearly addressed, because you are not capable of accepting answers to your falsely presented declarations of what the devs are working or not working on. And several repeats of the same process.

After which you complain you were somehow misunderstood little angles trying your best to heeeeeelp and got "raved at" you poor little you.

Which is another blatant lie (or more likely a psychological problem) that you just declare. - contrary to reality.

And you were even provoked? No way? Its all those other guys fault? It just fell did it?

 

btw, to be clear, i see all that as more of a almost instinctive reaction, not evil intent, that happens once someone doesn't automatically say yess to whatever you claimed out of the blue. Which is usually some fairytale you tell yourself. Which is then talked about as if thats the problem. So someone just repeats how i want each attack animated, despite the contrary explanations which are disregarded, how devs are not working on many game features despite the current real situation, that the updates say they wont work on anything except bugs and balances - which they dont actually,  and other such pointless crap and inane mewling "insults" and more strawmans... and even re-translations of what happened even though posts are still there a few pages back... because internet memory is two posts short.

 

I think Hanlons razor is correct in this case, it just really isnt nice to watch over and over and over.

 

 

 

I think it would be super to discuss what animations PoE might be missing, where they could be improved, etc. I think animations really help enhance the quality and feedback of the game.

 

 

Isnt that awesome... how about talking about that instead of what a poor nice victim you are.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Luridis]

Translates...

 

I am infallible.

You are all stupid.

You don't understand me... because you are stupid.

You, all of you, have mental problems.

I'm going to make stuff up out of the blue, and accuse you of doing just this!

No one can post anything to my satisfaction because... well then I wouldn't have someone to put down and thus prove myself superior.

[Surface Reflection]

And there we go... another re-translation of what i actually think. un ****ing believable.

 

the stupidity of it, trying to say it right after i said thats one of the stupidest blatant idiocies you few cretins do  ...

 

wow... (hey, ... reminds me of the codex)..

Edited December 31, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Luridis]

And here I was, on permenant ignore and then... well I guess not.

 

 

wow... (hey, ... reminds me of the codex)..

 

I suspect that people don't live up to your expectations, wherever it is you happen to put yourself.

[Nakia]

Could we please stick to the discussion of animations in games?  Otherwise we will end up with another closed thread.  Animations are important and even if it is too late to expect any changes in PoE there is always another game or expansion to be made.  Also it is fun to discuss things and get different opinions.

[Luckmann]

Could we please stick to the discussion of animations in games?  Otherwise we will end up with another closed thread.  Animations are important and even if it is too late to expect any changes in PoE there is always another game or expansion to be made.  Also it is fun to discuss things and get different opinions.

I think the thread is already a bit far gone, because any attempt to actually discuss it will really just be met with the cognitive difficulties of the OP.

[Osvir]

Something have had me curious lately... and a bit of the complete opposite of "SUPER FANTASTIC AWESOME AMAZING REALISTIC ANIMATIONS!!!" from my previous post.

Is abstraction a mechanic, a feature, in old-school cRPG's? Looking back, so many games have worthless or no animations whatsoever, and it's perfectly fine. Some very simple VFX. Because the games are great anyways. But how important are Animations... really? And without advanced animations... is Abstraction an Art that can be conveyed into a development? (maybe? but difficult )

RPG's are all a lot about abstraction, aren't they? I.E. ROLEPLAYING. Simulated PnP, D&D, tabletop, boardgames. Which all could be viewed as, from an angle: Playing with abstraction.

Would we care if the characters moved like the Spiderweb Software games? (Avernum, Geneforge, Nethergate) or even Tales of Maj'Eyal? (TOME) or even NEO Scavenger? (Probably, because it wouldn't be tributing to the IE game style, I'm speaking rethorically, how much does it matter if the characters are mostly static South Park 2D paper avatars with little movement, or dynamicly superior 3D models?). The point is to convey, through the medium (the engine/game), movement. Our minds will fill in the blanks.

Graphics, animations, means nothing. What's most important (in a cRPG), I believe, is how well "movement" is conveyed through "action buttons". NEO Scavenger is easiest to talk about, because everything is like Civilisation combined with Scripted Events, so getting the idea of what happens in combat, traveling, searching, hiding etc. etc. gets easily abstracted. Underrail can go into this bin as well. These are all turn based games though, but what is to say that a realtime can't be static images?

In Baldur's Gate: EE, the animations are simple, the paperdoll models almost feel like action figures, toy figurines in a way, they are basic in their movement. They walk (not run, which I am a bit bummed about in PoE), they have really basic attack animations, clear-visual-presentation and you can see and understand whenever one character attacks. Baldur's Gate & Baldur's Gate 2 are some of the best cRPG's out there, in my opinion.
 

Why is more advanced/improved animation important, when the same effect (and often much better effect) can be achieved through a Player's abstraction with zero animation?

EDIT: And, Surface Reflection, threads are almost always derailed in some way or another. People will discuss the subject, but perhaps not in a way you want it. You can try and moderate it, but at some point people start discussing with each other, rather than with the topic starter. 

Edited December 31, 2014 by Osvir

[Nakia]

Osvir, I almost struck dumb but not quite.  I am probably not the one to answer you because I have an eye impairment and in PoE the combat animations are not as clear to me as they are to others.    For me I would say the abstraction is what counts.  Not some minor detail that I will probably miss any way.  I do enjoy seeing the animations in a game like Prince of Qin.  The combat is turn based and the combat quite fun.  Skyrim IMO which should have been recent graphics had very boring combat.  Spell casting was more interesting but not melee or even archery.  I think combat moves can be interesting but it depends on the game.

 

I think there is room for both abstract animation and detailed animation but how important is it?  I guess that depends on  the individual playing the game.  For me it don't see detailed animations as important in an isometric game but that is my opinion.

[Osvir]

I'm split.

On one hand, I want super amazing fantastic super animations that... hm... something like "Dungeon of the Endless"* (Turn-based psuedo-realtime) combined with Assassin's Creed :D :D

 

On the other hand, I want simplistic amazing simple animations that convey an image, an idea. Abstraction. Something like Baldur's Gate, or like most RTS/MOBA games out there that have 1 or 2 attack animations, movement animations, spell cast animation, etc..

On the third hand that mutated out of me just now, I'd be perfectly fine with static 2D images with represented VFX. Like in PnP, or Open RPG, Tabletop boardgames etc. or even Card games (Hearthstone images). The simplest of the simplest methods.

* Characters move in realtime, "turn-based" is more like... "room-based" or "door-based". When you open a door, you also have a % chance of summoning monsters. You can pause and re-position your characters etc. etc. animations are simple (but complex), because 2D pixelart.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Osvir

[Surface Reflection]

 

EDIT: And, Surface Reflection, threads are almost always derailed in some way or another. People will discuss the subject, but perhaps not in a way you want it. You can try and moderate it, but at some point people start discussing with each other, rather than with the topic starter. 

 

 

There is discussing the topic subsidiary angles or loosely connected subjects and then there is blatant trolling based on literal stupid lies, strawman arguments and ad hominem flaming.

Feel free to be conformist in such a measure to become incapable of seeing that difference and to therefore, inadvertentčy support "that".

 

But dont talk to me about it.

 

 

 

Also, the subject are minimalistic, realistic as possible ,considering the late situation, additions and improvements to characters and NPC, creatures and enemies movement in combat, coupled with improved animations at least when it comes to special moves.

 

I said that three pages ago already.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Nakia]

I'm split.

 

On one hand, I want super amazing fantastic super animations that... hm... something like "Dungeon of the Endless"* (Turn-based psuedo-realtime) combined with Assassin's Creed :D :D

 

On the other hand, I want simplistic amazing simple animations that convey an image, an idea. Abstraction. Something like Baldur's Gate, or like most RTS/MOBA games out there that have 1 or 2 attack animations, movement animations, spell cast animation, etc..

 

On the third hand that mutated out of me just now, I'd be perfectly fine with static 2D images with represented VFX. Like in PnP, or Open RPG, Tabletop boardgames etc. or even Card games (Hearthstone images). The simplest of the simplest methods.

 

* Characters move in realtime, "turn-based" is more like... "room-based" or "door-based". When you open a door, you also have a % chance of summoning monsters. You can pause and re-position your characters etc. etc. animations are simple (but complex), because 2D pixelart.

Discussions like this always make me think of Prince of Qin and how amazed I was at the combat animations that it had.    Like PoE it had a 2D background but the combat was far from simplistic.    The main character was a Paladin and then you had three companions.  The combat was very artistic IMO.  It was like a fierce dance, a dance of death.  The Beastman could leap over enemies and as he leveled up leaps became greater and stronger.  The magic casters where more static in movement but still interesting.  AoE spells rolled across the ground and of course being an oriental game it included the belief that different elements affected each other in different ways.   I would have to go and do some research to refresh my memory but you had to be careful how you combined things.

[GreyFox]

I agree that the combat looks pretty stiff but it also known that Obsidian(JE) clearly tried to pull a fast one by dubbing this a RTwP game then designed combat as if it was turn based.

 

But no I don't think it should be Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon stuff going on either...

Edited December 31, 2014 by GreyFox

[PrimeJunta]

I think you're ALL poopy-heads, but I love you anyway.

 

Happy New Year.

 

I also may have had one drink too many.

[Nakia]

 Happy New Year to all

[Yonjuro]

...

Second, the animations will be better in the final version, but nobody knows how much.

 

The second is - argument from ignorance. ....

 

 No. The "argument from ignorance" fallacy means shifting the burden of proof by doing this:

 

<X> is an explanation of <Y> because your interlocutor can't provide of an explanation of <Y>

 

 For example:

 

 "The Big Bang was the result of the universe being sneezed out of the nose of a supreme being afflicted with a respiratory infection. Since you don't have an explanation for the Big Bang the preceding must be true." (Bzzzt! Fallacy.)

 

 That would be an argument from ignorance fallacy. The post you quoted was (correctly) expressing ignorance about what will happen to the animations. It was not an example of the argument from ignorance fallacy.

 

.... i cannot find proper words to describe it.

 

 Yes. This part is correct. 

Edited December 31, 2014 by Yonjuro

[Silent Winter]

..

 

Would we care if the characters moved like the Spiderweb Software games? (Avernum, Geneforge, Nethergate) or even Tales of Maj'Eyal? (TOME) or even NEO Scavenger? (Probably, because it wouldn't be tributing to the IE game style, I'm speaking rethorically, how much does it matter if the characters are mostly static South Park 2D paper avatars with little movement, or dynamicly superior 3D models?). The point is to convey, through the medium (the engine/game), movement. Our minds will fill in the blanks.

...

 

Why is more advanced/improved animation important, when the same effect (and often much better effect) can be achieved through a Player's abstraction with zero animation?

I think it comes down to the uncanny valley here - the more realistic the graphics, the more realistic the animations need to be.

When super-mario was running on the NES, we accepted the running animation because the sprite itself was so simple.

If you take COD-level figures and animate them like super-mario, your brain goes 'WTF?'

Your brain is more willing to abstract when there's less info than when there's more (or something).

 

So in Avernum (and IE games, etc), the graphics and animations did their job fine, and can do so again when replayed today - but given the higher graphics of PoE currently in place, we expect higher level of animation to go with it.

(Not saying I'm unhappy with what we've got so far - though I would like the disengagement attacks to be animated in some way)

[Surface Reflection]

I think you're ALL poopy-heads, but I love you anyway.

 

Happy New Year.

 

I also may have had one drink too many.

 

 Happy New Year to all

 

Happy new year to all humans still capable of common sense and thinking straight.

 

The rest can go jump off a cliff. The sooner the better.

 

 

 

 

..

 

Would we care if the characters moved like the Spiderweb Software games? (Avernum, Geneforge, Nethergate) or even Tales of Maj'Eyal? (TOME) or even NEO Scavenger? (Probably, because it wouldn't be tributing to the IE game style, I'm speaking rethorically, how much does it matter if the characters are mostly static South Park 2D paper avatars with little movement, or dynamicly superior 3D models?). The point is to convey, through the medium (the engine/game), movement. Our minds will fill in the blanks.

...

 

Why is more advanced/improved animation important, when the same effect (and often much better effect) can be achieved through a Player's abstraction with zero animation?

I think it comes down to the uncanny valley here - the more realistic the graphics, the more realistic the animations need to be.

When super-mario was running on the NES, we accepted the running animation because the sprite itself was so simple.

If you take COD-level figures and animate them like super-mario, your brain goes 'WTF?'

Your brain is more willing to abstract when there's less info than when there's more (or something).

 

So in Avernum (and IE games, etc), the graphics and animations did their job fine, and can do so again when replayed today - but given the higher graphics of PoE currently in place, we expect higher level of animation to go with it.

(Not saying I'm unhappy with what we've got so far - though I would like the disengagement attacks to be animated in some way)

 

 

There is that expectation, true. Recently it was most visible in evolution of TB games, long awaited and finally visible in games like D:OS.

But knowing that, i took special care to minimize that influence of that on my suggestions and ideas for PoE specifically. My suggestions dont come from that direction, but from the desire to see these new mechanics translating into physicality in the game. 

 

 

So, form the start, i was talking and thinking only about improvements to the - body movements in combat thats dependent on stats and mechanics - that could be feasible and doable in the time remaining. Few steps back and forth, sidestep or two, a jump ? PCs and enemies that are moving at least a little bit around while they fight?

 

Nothing more terrible then that.

[Luckmann]

Happy new yuears!

[Lord Wafflebum]

@Surface

Is it possible to then just call a truce? The personal attacks are not necessary, and your attitude encourages derailment. True, I don't have to engage your insults, but my impulse control has limits. As you might imagine, I dislike being treated like crap.

 

@Actual topic discussion

I get the desire for better animations. I like as much feedback as possible when playing, especially of the visible variety so I can watch the game instead of the combat log the whole time. Considering the issues in the beta already, I'm concerned a greater variety of animations would impact the already iffy performance? Admittedly I don't know if that's more an issue with the game not being optimized, or maybe even a Unity limitation.

 

If there was one more animation I could see added in it would be more flipping about. I realize how unrealistic that is and that in actual combat it would be an enormous waste of energy, but there's something I find very exciting about flipping around in combat. I've been playing the witcher lately, and most of my fights are about 70% sweet backslips and 30% actual fighting.

[Lephys]

Meh, maybe I'm a stick in the mud, but isn't it pointless if the subject of said debate is already "set in stone"?

It is the objective truth that the devs already said that new features will not be put in, even avoided as BAdler said.

This isn't discussing something with a ton of possibilities yet open, like the future of deep space exploration but something very limited and defined. The game Pillars of Eternity, out in the next quarter, with the budget of $4 Mil., etc...

So why talk about features that will not, cannot see the light of day?

Because there is more to productive discussion than either petitioning specifically to get a feature added or ignoring it and never ever talking about it at all.

 

This topic was started in regard to the general idea behind real-time gameplay of this nature, and how that collective concept could be improved upon. I'm not about to go back and forth about "yeah but specifically, better animations and attack-flow should be slapped into the game right now!". However, they are still tweaking things, and anything even remotely related to such a thing could benefit from the evaluation of what helps support the real-time aspect of gameplay and what does not.

 

Ideas are like seed clusters. Maybe there are 100 seeds, and not all of them will take root or produce anything. But maybe 1 will. That's why actual discussion, and not just binary back-and-forth argument about one thing being done or not-being done, is quite beneficial.

[Surface Reflection]

@Surface

Is it possible to then just call a truce? The personal attacks are not necessary, and your attitude encourages derailment. True, I don't have to engage your insults, but my impulse control has limits. As you might imagine, I dislike being treated like crap.

 

The shortest way to stop being treated like crap is to stop writing and behaving like crap. Asking for a "truce" while dishing out your self serving delusions about my personality as fact isnt really an example of inteligence, after about four pages of various inane or just completely unrelated crap you and those few trolls unloaded here - and which you seem intent on prolonging by directly accusing me as the reason for all that.

 

 

 

@Actual topic discussion

I get the desire for better animations.

 

 

For better and improved movement during combat. Thats stats and mechanic dependant, or in other words reflected in the physical world of the game more.

Not "animations" as in just any kind of. 

 

 

 

If there was one more animation I could see added in it would be more flipping about. I realize how unrealistic that is and that in actual combat it would be an enormous waste of energy, but there's something I find very exciting about flipping around in combat.

 

I would so tell you where to take that flipping...

But to the point, a 3d person or even FP action game is not relevant at all, and rolling around - which cannot be applied in a game like poE anyway since it would look amazingly ridiculous - was one of the worst things in that half consolized wreck of a game, generally hated by all.

 

 

 

I've been playing the witcher lately, and most of my fights are about 70% sweet backslips and 30% actual fighting.