Ukraine Discussion

[Cultist]

Not the best encouragement for ukrainian armed forces

[obyknven]

Oby is Sarmathian warlord Polish toiletcleaner in Birmingham, UK. She doesn't speak Russian at all.

fix 

[Drowsy Emperor]

****ing tragedy is what it is, they have no idea why they were fighting a war that made them cripples for life. They may think they do, but time will show that there was nothing to win and everything to lose, as far as the well being of the people living in Ukraine is concerned.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The title of the second video is "knife the Moscowites". I can make out "Ukraine for Ukrainians"

 

Sad to see slavic nationalism targeted against Russians, when the Kievan rus i.e. today's Ukrainians are the historical cradle of Russia. Same people really.

 

This is the process of creating yet another nation state out of thin air by homogenizing the population against the "enemy". 

 

Moscow should have acted against this nazi minority way before they flipped Yanukovich.

How dare you! They support Europe and DEMMMMMUCRACY!

 

 

Whenever I hear that a movement supports democracy I look skyward to see if the bombs have started falling yet.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Chilloutman]

I'm always amused when people belittle Putin, a man who has spent 14 years ruling a country, taking it from an economic ruin back into world power status. The man turned the fanatically warlike Chechens from an enemy of Russia to a steadfast ally. All the while being consistently the most popular and beloved leader among his people in decades. And even if a part of his opinion polls can be attributed to state propaganda he is still routinely more popular than any other western leader and usually more than a few of them combined.

 

On top of that he managed to actually rule a country with 150 million people that spans two continents and stay in power for so long among some very dangerous people which is no small feat in itself.

 

And even now the combined political pressure of what now passes for the west is not putting a dent in his opinion polls, let alone his actual power.

 

Indeed one would have to be a cretin to believe the man as anything less than extremely capable. 

 

If you switch Putin with hitler and Russia with nazi germany it is strangly correct as well

[Zoraptor]

There isn't a single fact in there that parallels except facile ones- someone has to be the most popular politician in decades, that is as much equivalent to Tony Blair as to Hitler. Indeed, Hitler never won a majority at an election unlike both Putin and Blair.

[Hassat Hunter]

I kinda ignored this topic, but today started reading a bit up again about the Ukrain conflict... let's see what the last headlines are;

 

* Ukraine Military granted 100+ pantser-vehicles by president.

So... while after half a YEAR we still can't prove Russian involvement, we now activelly see our retarded-EU money being spend on massive warfare. Western politicans speak shame of Russian trying to influence a country next to it, but everyone's just quite fine with countries being *far* away from it granting more than a hundred military vehicles. There's not more pressing ways to spend all that money after all. It's pretty obvious to see it's *our* money being spend there. Good going again EU, ****ing morons...

 

* Ukrainian Military bombs city with clusterbombs, Swiss Red Cross member among casualties.

Human Rights Watch confirmed this, and the article also mentions this is generally seen as a warcrime. So, why are we still supporting these people again? Speak shame if Syria commits warcrimes and demand it's surrender, but if our allies (Ugh) commit them it's all fine and dandy?

 

Why the heck are we (the West) still supporting these people again? Do our EU-leaders want war, or are they just grossly incompetant (looking at the state of the EU and Euro, probably that). I'm kinda hoping Greece will leave the pact this month and that will send some signal throughout the region. I'm personally tired of our EU-phile politicans here wanting to shift more and more power to Brussel, and then hear on the news we need to pay them more, and they just give (GIVE!) like a billion away to Ukraine, no strings attached, and then later learn how they exactly used our generous (ugh again) gift... It's rather hard to think the people on top couldn't possible expect this while it was so very very obvious.

 

* "NATO delivers weapons to Ukraine."

Well, ****... I should have scrolled down even more... writing all this above about weaponry. :/

He has moved Russia to a very controlled state where the basic  human rights of people are  ignored and he effectively disabled many of the organs of Democracy. And he then controlled the economic recovery of Russia through oil and gas exports. But he was fooling himself as his policies have now got Russia into the state its in

Are you talking about Russia now or the EU?

And if during 14 years there's 6 months of economic depression (without any proof that it wont overcome this) that's suddenly overruling everything? Can you tell me how many months, years of economic depression the US or EU had these past 14 years... heck, the European Central Bank wants to take drastic measures this month since the economy of the EU has stagnated these past 10 YEARS!

The US has plummeted itself into massive debts with the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, and how many times was default narrowly avoided even after Bush was surpassed by Obama? There even were a few days when everything was shut down. That's not exactly my own definition of doing a very good job or having a "good state of country"...

[Chilloutman]

* Ukraine Military granted 100+ pantser-vehicles by president.

So... while after half a YEAR we still can't prove Russian involvement, we now activelly see our retarded-EU money being spend on massive warfare. Western politicans speak shame of Russian trying to influence a country next to it, but everyone's just quite fine with countries being *far* away from it granting more than a hundred military vehicles. There's not more pressing ways to spend all that money after all. It's pretty obvious to see it's *our* money being spend there. Good going again EU, ****ing morons...

 

Are you from EU? just asking that because you dont know that we have borders with Ukraine as well...

[HoonDing]

Well, he'll move to Russia next month.

[Rostere]

To be honest, I think that the EU has very much a "wait and see" approach to Ukraine. The EU is very weary of Putin but otherwise does not have much at stake in Ukraine. Contrast this with the US where I believe some people in the security-intelligence apparatus (although not the current political leadership, like Obama) still see Russia as an inherent enemy and wants to do everything they can to kick them in the balls. The series of events that led to the toppling of Yanukovich and what followed immediately afterwards is way too destabilizing to be to the EU's liking.

 

If you are critical of alleged EU overspending on military, I ask you (Hassat): Where would you rather live?

[Malcador]

Hm I had thought the US didn't want to get sucked into this - the tapes released a while ago - rather than being the evil agitators.

 

I like that last question, usually Americans swinging that, hah

Edited January 6, 2015 by Malcador

[Agiel]

If you are critical of alleged EU overspending on military, I ask you (Hassat): Where would you rather live?

 

Should be noted that the Netherlands offloaded all of its remaining Leopard 2s onto Finland and nearly its entire CV90 fleet to Estonia. Understandable given that those two are freaking terrified of Russia.

 

Overspending on the military? Of the members of the EU that are in NATO, the UK, France, the Baltics, and Poland gripe that everyone else doesn't meet the mandated 2% of GDP military spending to be in NATO.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Agiel

[Rostere]

Hm I had thought the US didn't want to get sucked into this - the tapes released a while ago - rather than being the evil agitators.

 

I like that last question, usually Americans swinging that, hah

 

It's very doubtful that they do (and again I'm sure this entire thing is only looked upon as a headache by the highest political leadership), but I'm also pretty sure from what we've heard that there are people in military/intelligence positions who didn't get the memo that the Cold War ended, who would rather take a chance to hurt Russia just because than preserve the stability of the European region (which is the goal of the EU).

 

Now the real game-changer here is the annexation of Crimea and the unrest in the East: suppose none of that had happened. We would have had the next election, and then maybe power would have swung back to the pro-Russia camp, instead of the pro-EU camp. If not in the next election, then the one after that. Pretty much the status quo except for some marginal gains in the field of anti-corruption if the public got what they wanted after deposing Yanukovich, perhaps.

 

With Crimea gone and the East in turmoil, it is looking increasingly unlikely that Ukraine will ever again have pro-Russian leadership. The demographics simply do not support that. GG Putin, you got what you wanted. And that is WITHOUT counting in the huge hit to Russian popularity, especially in the Western parts of Ukraine. Again due to the change in demographics and how that affects the public discussion, the picture of Russia will be increasingly dominated by pictures such as this:

 

 

rather than any positive nostalgia for the Soviet era. Again, I can't say anything other than that Putin brought this upon himself. He had as his ally a completely corrupt kleptocrat which was consequently deposed - and after this has happened, he initiates military action against Ukraine. It must have been a real honey-pot for an old insipid imperialist, I'll concede that.

[Drowsy Emperor]

There was no way for the pro-russian side to win ever again since the whole "revolution" was also a political purge of all pro-russian politicians. Some members of parliament were thrown in dumpsters, houses and party offices torched, people threatened and beaten. This was the second of the western sponsored revolutions in Ukraine and the Russians let the first one slide because they still had ground in Ukraine in the aftermath. This time, they were likely to lose everything. 

[Rostere]

There was no way for the pro-russian side to win ever again since the whole "revolution" was also a political purge of all pro-russian politicians. Some members of parliament were thrown in dumpsters, houses and party offices torched, people threatened and beaten. This was the second of the western sponsored revolutions in Ukraine and the Russians let the first one slide because they still had ground in Ukraine in the aftermath. This time, they were likely to lose everything. 

 

I have also seen the pictures of politicians being thrown in dumpsters and so on. But that does still not change any demographic realities, and thus not any political realities...

[Hassat Hunter]

It's not that complex... the West likes the West, the East likes the East. Due to the East pro-Russian wins election, West doesn't like that and topples the government.

However, unlike splitting the country in 2 (which whould be the sane thing to do with such a divided population), as happened with countries in the past, the Kiev-government insist on keeping Ukraine whole, and that leads to full out war of the West opposing the pro-Russian aligned East. If they weren't, you think Crimea wanted to seperate earlier. All the civilians you saw protesting agains the invading army, old 65+ going out blocking pantser-vehicles? Does that seem like people who want to join the West-Ukrainian thinking.

 

But of course the reason is simple, the West-Ukraine has nothing to offer, all of it's value is in the East. So it makes sense for Kiev to go to war instead of falling appart into 2. All policial powerplay, over people's lives.

And instead of calling Kiev to order for what it does, we promote it and say 'good going'... thereby commiting similar warcrimes as what we hate Assad in Syria for.

 

As to the proposed question; I'm just fine her. Though I definitely do not agree with our politicans wholefully agree being EU-lapdogs, giving over more power and money over them even if we specifically even voted as majority not too, and then all we get is the EU just giving Kiev 14 billion for nothing. They want to give that kind of incompetance reward by giving them even more power?

 

I'm not against military overspending of the EU (huh, what you get that from)? Just about the cost of bureacracy, incompetance, and money that just 'vanishes'... all the less power we give that rather than more the better...

[Zoraptor]

I have also seen the pictures of politicians being thrown in dumpsters and so on. But that does still not change any demographic realities, and thus not any political realities...

 

 

If the capital were Donetsk or Lugansk it wouldn't. But with Kiev being run by the east's political opponents there was no prospect of those actions stopping, or of there ever being the security- fair security- necessary for the democratic process to happen. Lest we forget, former interim 'President' Turchenov took great and unconstrained glee in dissolving the Communist Party's parlimaentary faction, one of his political opponents, weeks before the election. That's the sort of person running Ukraine, they aren't even 'democratic' with air quotes, they'll allow any party to exist- so long as they agree with them.

 

And that's the reality of post coup Ukraine, and just another way that the coup tore up the rule book.

[Cultist]

DEMMMMMUCRACY intensifies

The best thing is that russian at least found a way to utilize them rather fast

Edited January 7, 2015 by Cultist

[Cultist]

By the way, this valiant fighter for freedom and democracy has been appointed as a Deputy Chief of Kiev region police(he's at my previous post's topmost photo, actually). Take that, totalitarian russian slaves!

Edited January 7, 2015 by Cultist

[BruceVC]

By the way, this valiant fighter for freedom and democracy has been appointed as a Deputy Chief of Kiev region police(he's at my previous post's topmost photo, actually). Take that, totalitarian russian slaves!

 

All you doing is posting the worst possible depictions of the Kiev government and making it like this represents what the current Kiev leadership and political structures really represent

 

No one actually believes this, well Oby might 

[HoonDing]

Slavic neo-nazis... the ultimate Uncle Tom.

[Cultist]

All you doing is posting the worst possible depictions of the Kiev government and making it like this represents what the current Kiev leadership and political structures really represent

 

 

No one actually believes this, well Oby might 

Brucy, Breucy, how much is enough?

"All you do is posting holocaust pictures and other worst depictions of nazi Germany government and making it like this represents what the current German leadership and political structures really represent"

Even if I post a video, pictures and audio recordings of entire ukrainian government earing roasting and newborn babies you still will evangelize about brave new demucracy, fredumz and stuff and how they are misunderstood and framed by Axis of Evil. Because it's all satanic pro-russian, west-hating, democracy-denying propaganda and cannot be right because it is unthinkable that they could possibly be right.

Do you like this photo? In case you don't know this guy at the right is the current president of Ukraine.

 

You created an imaginary government, a fantasy-like rebellion in a eastern-europe which fought against the ages of opression, against all that is evil for all that is good and now this land of hobbits are threatened by the bordering Mordor.

The reality, with marching nazi torch rallies, bombardment of civilian districts, genocide, political purges, new oligarchs in power, rampart opposition censorship is an anathema to your imaginary social justice world.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Cultist

[obyknven]

Yeeessss! Leeetttsss worrrlldd bbuuuurrrrnnnn!!!
 


http://www.inquisitr.com/1744204/world-war-3-mikhail-gorbachev-warns-of-a-russian-nuclear-war-over-ukraine/

Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev is warning that if the Ukraine crisis transforms into World War 3, then it may be unavoidable that Vladimir Putin may launch a Russian nuclear war.

http://www.inquisitr.com/1744293/vladimir-putin-sets-stage-for-world-war-3-expands-russias-nuclear-weapons-defenses-near-europe/ 

The day after Christmas, Putin enacted a new Russian military doctrine that calls for a more aggressive stance against NATO, increases the presence of the Russian military in the north due to the Arctic oil, and also strengthens ties with China and India.

Since Russia claims that NATO nations are “undermining global stability and violating the balance of power in the nuclear-missile sphere,” Russia’s nuclear missile defense systems will be expanded in cooperation with Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, which are sometimes referred to as the BRICS nations. The document, signed by Putin, allows Russia and its allies to set up nuclear missile defense systems as part of joint defense projects. Previously, such a partnership would not be possible based upon the old military doctrine.

[Gorgon]

The EU is planning to set up its own TV station to rival RT. Can't find a story on it atm. The level of deliberate misinformation and Russian trolling is getting to the point where it's hard for people to make out what is really going on. Of course there is every chance that it will succumb to the pitfall of becomming anti-Russian rather than anti-misinformation. 

[Rostere]

The EU is planning to set up its own TV station to rival RT. Can't find a story on it atm. The level of deliberate misinformation and Russian trolling is getting to the point where it's hard for people to make out what is really going on. Of course there is every chance that it will succumb to the pitfall of becomming anti-Russian rather than anti-misinformation. 

 

Yes, pretty much. I'll remain sceptical until I see the result...