Why Trap XP doesn't work

[Hormalakh]

So I've come to accept many changes to the original idea behind PoE. One of them deals with XP. Bestiary XP and lockpick XP are two that I have come to accept (although why my Druid would be ok with killing creatures, I don't know, but this game isn't really big on being consistent with the lore anyway).

 

However, I think that trap XP is just one of those things that would tip the balance over for me. With lock and bestiary xp, you end up having to kill a few enemies here and there and most locks hold some sort of loot or pathway behind them. With trap xp, however, what will end up happening for many players is that if they trigger a trap, they will automatically reload.

 

The thinking would go like this: if XP is awarded for traps and they just triggered a trap, why would they not immediately reload and disarm that trap for the free xp? At least with a trap that is set off without a xp loss, there's less of a reason to reload.

 

----

 

Again, I'm not for the other little bits of XP, but they're not as blatantly meta-gameable as this one.

[Silent Winter]

Do we know how much xp is being given for disarming traps?
Is it in the 20xp range or the 100xp range? (not sure what a level is worth in PoE - so not sure myself what xp is worth - I'm just asking for how significant it is)

[Ink Blot]

Honestly, I don't understand why this is a concern. Some players will reload, yes. Others won't. Who cares? The 'hand-wringing'* and angst that seems to be displayed at the fact a player may exploit the reload function baffles me. WHY do people give a crap? If you don't think reloading to gain that pithy XP for disarming a trap is worth it, then by all means don't bother reloading.

 

*I put this in quotes because I realize that's not what you're doing here, but it just seems that there are a lot of threads/posts concerned with how players might exploit the game to gain a small advantage or more XPs. I just don't get why it's a big deal.

[Seari]

I choose to believe that not everyone is a realod spamming scumbag.

 

Edit: Also if they are, who cares?

Edited December 2, 2014 by Seari

[Answermancer]

Well I imagine you'll make fun of me, but I like it when these sorts of quote-unquote "degenerate" incentives are eliminated. It protects me from myself, I know myself well enough to know that I respond strongly to incentives even if they make the game less fun (by being tedious).

 

I'm not a fan of trap of lockpicking xp, but of the two trap is definitely worse.

[Sensuki]

I usually stay out of XP discussions but XP for disarming traps and opening locks is retarded. I cannot believe they added it in, actually.

[ISC]

Honestly, I don't understand why this is a concern. Some players will reload, yes. Others won't. Who cares? The 'hand-wringing'* and angst that seems to be displayed at the fact a player may exploit the reload function baffles me. WHY do people give a crap? If you don't think reloading to gain that pithy XP for disarming a trap is worth it, then by all means don't bother reloading.

 

*I put this in quotes because I realize that's not what you're doing here, but it just seems that there are a lot of threads/posts concerned with how players might exploit the game to gain a small advantage or more XPs. I just don't get why it's a big deal.

 

I agree with the OP. It seems like a lot of people find it difficult to understand that you would want a system which makes "powergaming" difficult if you like powergaming. There's a misunderstanding how motivation works here. I am a "serial powergamer" but that does not mean that I just want to pile up as high numbers as possible with any means available. I want a consistent ("realistic") game world in which the challenge motivating me is to optimize whatever character I'm interested in. This is where the main fun is. It is not about winning the game and I dont want anything immersion-breaking. The game should not encourage meta-reloading for crap like that, and it is not a matter of choice on the player to just 'do what you like' since what I like is to chase "pithy XP" within the game world.

 

However, the problem comes down to how, or rather why, xp is distributed. Again.

[Captain Shrek]

I choose to believe that not everyone is a realod spamming scumbag.

 

Edit: Also if they are, who cares?

And how is "save-scumming" bad. 

[lolaldanee]

I usually stay out of XP discussions but XP for disarming traps and opening locks is retarded. I cannot believe they added it in, actually.

well, yes

i'm not even a big fan of the xp for kills, but this is just like one of the worst things you could possibly ad as an xp mechanic

especially when wastland 2 just has very well proven once again how stupid an idea it is

Edited December 2, 2014 by lolaldanee

[Gfted1]

Honestly, I don't understand why this is a concern. Some players will reload, yes. Others won't. Who cares? The 'hand-wringing'* and angst that seems to be displayed at the fact a player may exploit the reload function baffles me. WHY do people give a crap? If you don't think reloading to gain that pithy XP for disarming a trap is worth it, then by all means don't bother reloading.

 

*I put this in quotes because I realize that's not what you're doing here, but it just seems that there are a lot of threads/posts concerned with how players might exploit the game to gain a small advantage or more XPs. I just don't get why it's a big deal.

 

It always boils down to "I cant control myself". Its the same reason we have no healing, limited resting, unlimited inventory and no kill xp.

 

Anyhow, Im down for all possible forms of xp gain. Full speed ahead!

[nipsen]

I'm also for irreparably ruining any semblance of reasonable level-progression pacing, to please people who get more enjoyment out of watching numbers roll by on the screen, than an immersive game.

 

And to make sure the former group of people are given the opportunity to laugh at the latter on the forums when the game is too difficult -- since they didn't systematically unlock all the doors and crates through all the 100 optional dungeon areas in the game earlier on.

 

Full speed ahead!

[Gfted1]

You're finally getting it. Im so proud.

 

Or, you know, don't push the button that ruins your game. Genius!

[Kjaamor]

I'm also for irreparably ruining any semblance of reasonable level-progression pacing, to please people who get more enjoyment out of watching numbers roll by on the screen, than an immersive game.

 

And to make sure the former group of people are given the opportunity to laugh at the latter on the forums when the game is too difficult -- since they didn't systematically unlock all the doors and crates through all the 100 optional dungeon areas in the game earlier on.

 

Full speed ahead!

 

FFS. I lol'd.

[Gfted1]

Agreed, he/she makes me lol constantly too.

[Hormalakh]

i would really love to watch the let's plays of all these "holy gamers" that never try to game the system to get an davantage when a particular area is too difficult for them. Really, I would. Clearly, these beacons of "proper gaming" should shine a light on the rest of humanity who do try to go for the lowest hanging fruit whenever possible.

 

Gfted1 please go ahead an record your gaming sessions - it would be wonderful to watch you. Nipsen asked for a refund, so I'm not really worried about him playing this game because obviously he's not planning on playingthe game anymore....so.

 

this forum is seriously in need of some good moderation. All I did was voice my concern and what do I get? A bunch of nonsense and worthless posts that have nothing to do with the intial topic posted. And instead of well-reasoned arguments I get "lol" and mods joining in on the bashing.

 

Oh well.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Gfted1]

Life is tough when everyone doesn't agree with your opinions?

 

As for my play style; Im a unrepentant save scumming, resting, xp hording player and I couldn't care less about how someone else plays their single player game, or what they think of mine.   

 

Hard to digest, I know.

[Barleypaper]

If they gave you 1xp per mouse click, would a bunch of people end up with carpal tunnel syndrome? Yeah, maybe. Does that make it a dumb feature? Yeah, maybe. But it depends on what your idea of 'degenerate gameplay' is and how strongly you feel about it.

 

I think lock and trap xp is pretty dumb. But if enough people want it, I guess they can have it.

[Ink Blot]

... but XP for disarming traps and opening locks is retarded.

I think so as well (with the caveat that maybe a one time award for disarming a new type of trap or springing a new type of lock - much in the vein of XP for killing new creature types - may make some sense), but FFS, that's precisely the reason I don't bother reloading for the few XPs it would give.

 

Hormalakh, I honestly wasn't  intending to bash you. As I said I'm just so sick of reading threads across various game forums about how this or that mechanic should be removed or revised because it's 'degenerate gameplay' when it can only be exploited if the player chooses to do so. I'd far rather the devs concentrate on other, bigger things, than these (of course, I'd far rather they'd concentrated elsewhere than actually implementing trap and lock XP, but c'est la vie)

[nipsen]

 

Hard to digest, I know.

It's not. Play the game how you want.

 

What's annoying is the idea that a game with less exploitable rules is unplayable. And that a game like that can't be played "how you want to".

 

It's one step removed from insisting that if you design a game with level progression that either is balanced consciously through story-progression or exploration. Or a game with encounters (combat and dialogue) that are specifically chosen to match a party's abilities - like you would have in a role-playing game - is broken.

 

I mean, we're not used to seeing any innovative attempts to solve more reasonable level progression in crpgs. So it's common that if stats and abilities are used in dialogue, then you usually lack skills or suddenly have too many unused ones. Just as that certain spawns are either too high or too low level - or the automatic scaling doesn't work well (or sometimes it works too well - the combat is never challenging, but also never very easy.. happens a lot in games). 

 

So when PoE seems to at least have made a stab at solving the level progression in both dialogue skills and combat skills by having a more comprehensive design. That ensures you can overextend yourself by questing out farther in the fields, and discovering dungeons that you are perhaps not completely prepared for early (making sure that you have a real challenge where that makes narrative sense). As well as having dialogue progression keyed to the level you are, allowing writers to give specialized characters certain perks (even though they have disadvantages in combat - like what was there in Fallout, for example). And always having boss-encounters and story events more or less perfectly mapped out to fit the level of the party, since you know on beforehand what the abilities are (as you would know in a pnp session, giving you the option to create something more dynamic than a random mob-spawn, with abilities and spells that have actual counters designed to fit the level, etc. Going a bit further than just adding hit-points, or leveling up the monsters - while then shaving off the most potentially show-stopping abilities and spells to make sure the random element won't kill the party by accident.... which is what forces level-scumming).

 

Then it's a bit annoying to see people insist that a design like that is worthless. And simply that since it's not exploitable in a well-known way, that it is not possible to play "however you want it".

 

During testing as well, a game that is supposed to be level-balanced by an assumed amount of "average" xp-scumming also tends to end up requiring people to do some repetitive and narratively unsatisfying chores to get to a level where it's possible to get past the boss-fights. I've mentioned it before, that I've been testing in betas where that happened. And the first thing we saw after release was that people who don't binge-play the game in one sitting, etc., or just went with the game the way the story seems to encourage you to - ended up being underleveled. And you end up with the game being too difficult to complete for one kind of player, and too easy for the other. Neither group had a really good experience with it.

 

Makes sense? I couldn't care less how much people exploit the game, or how ingeniously they do it. But to require it in the game is a different thing. I suppose people don't see it that way when they're used to playing the "genre" in a specific way, and are used to seeing the same designs over and over.

 

But actually having level progression that both escapes xp-scumming making all of the fights too easy(so that you have to choose your fights, and have a defeat condition if you overextend yourself - and have the game explaining you this, that you weren't supposed to be able to breeze through that particular dungeon without some luck and extra potions, perhaps some reinforcements and higher level abilities). As well as the problem where all the fights somehow scale, making even the easiest mob fight a high-level epic war, to match the level, etc. That hasn't actually been done before.

 

So the perspective of a role-playing gamer is that we accept that this is difficult to do, and work around the weaknesses of the system when playing. Ignoring the faults, enjoying the game in spite of the problems, etc. But you always want to see someone who designs a ruleset that approaches the dynamic you have in pnp, while also exploiting the advantages you have when being able to script encounters on beforehand.

 

In short - I don't have a problem with people xp-scumming the game to death. If it makes the game enjoyable, awesome. Have fun. But requiring it in the game is the same as requiring the simplistic designs that really are not very satisfying, that force fights to be predictable and boring.

 

If you want perfect examples of this, take a look at the level progression in some of the more successful NWN community modules.. the Aielund Saga, for example. In that module, everything you gain from sidequests and lockpicking is essentially insignificant compared to the story-progression rewards. You also get extra abilities depending on where you're at in the story. And it's done that way because some of the fights are very specifically scripted, with particular AI behaviour that wouldn't work with normal level scaling.

 

It drops over into being almost gated, like a single-player story in an fps, in a sense, because of this, though. That you basically only get any challenge when the script allows it. And so getting something that allows questing at random to have a justification of some sort other than xp-scumming -- is a stab at solving the level progression in a more comprehensive way.

 

So again - it's annoying to see people simply shrug it off as being broken. Along with the usual prim passive-aggressiveness towards anyone with a different view. It's not welcoming, and it's not encouraging any sort of discussion.

[Gfted1]

 

The des have stated that PoE can be beaten by following nothing more than the crit path. The examples of having "requirements" to do this or that to complete the game are false.

[Captain Shrek]

What is this with people? 

 

How is it wrong to "game" the system? Is it not an effing game? Also, I see no reason NOT to game it, if you feel so strongly about it. Oh, the game allows me to reload! I hate that crap! But my hands! They just can't stop pressing F6!!! What do? What do?

 

Check the ironman mode genius. 

[Sensuki]

This is what I had to say regarding the changes anyway

 

[Cubiq]

Check the ironman mode genius.

On a side note, i wonder how the developers even imagined people will be able to play this, as there is no way to escape combat if you accidentally pull more mobs than you can handle.

Play the perfect game with autism level of patrol path memory?

[Sensuki]

That's how you have to do the spider cave currently

[Captain Shrek]

 

Check the ironman mode genius.

On a side note, i wonder how the developers even imagined people will be able to play this, as there is no way to escape combat if you accidentally pull more mobs than you can handle.

Play the perfect game with autism level of patrol path memory?

 

 

I personally have never seen the point of an iron man mode. I always prefer to power through the game (duh) and almost never reload (because I never have to) but feel that ironman is basically meant for masochists.