First Impressions (v364)

[forgottenlor]

 

 About 90%** of the people who play a game will never, ever visit the game's forum, blog, Facebook page etc. But their opinion is no less valuable than those who write 10 posts/day.

Wait, you've lost me here. How is their opinion valuable if they CBA even to voice it? For all we know they don't have any opinion at all.

 

 

These people will make the game economically successful or not. They will probably decided if a Pillars of Eternity 2 gets made. Therefore their opinions are very relevant. The problem is, we don't know their opinions now, because they don't voice them. Someone who Beta tests POE can make an informed opinion, as they have seen what the game has to offer. Unfortunately, even among Beta Testers, there is no unified opinion on some issues.

[Hormalakh]

 

any update to the beta doesn't really need notes. the game isn't finished so everything should technically be work in progress.

 

technically.

 

the notes you expect are from complete games which ahve been published. it's more appropriate to compare betas to betas.

many do it like poe.

 

I don't agree we don't need notes. If we are to be beta-testing we have to know what changes between builds just as good as the real QA team, if we are to be of help. Not giving us notes leaves me with the impression that no one takes beta testers seriously as someone who can help with the development. And if you ask me, a game that has been delayed twice because of development goals not reached in the assigned timeframe, is certainly a game that could use some free help from its community.

 

If they have a QA team, they must have much more detailed notes on changes between builds. I'm not pretending I know better than them how to organize a team, so I'm sure their QA is working, I just don't know why don't we get the same grade of information as them. Overall, I don't think they are utilizing us as good as they could.

You are of the incorrect impression that they value your opinion as much as the qa teams when it comes to detailed feedback. They really don't. As has been mentioned several times in these very forums, they are really appreciative of our overall ~*feels*~ as josh likes to say. This is more important to them than x minuscule bug or y bug.

[Gairnulf]

This is a much discussed aspect of crowdfunding. It's still open to interpretation whether the makers of a crowdfunded product are "slaves" to the will of the crowd, or did they receive a kind of grandma's gift to chase a shared dream with great personal freedom? Those are the two ends of the spectrum.

It's funny how the question finally boils down to power and authority in the political sense.

The answer I give myself to your question would be that the developers are as free or as bound as they are allowed to be. When there are centers of power they will tend to increase their power, so in our situation - the hardcore players would strive to dictate everything, while the developers would strive to have as much freedom as they can without endangering the project's profitability (as percieved by them). I'm not saying either party is evil, just that there are interests which are common to some extent but diverge from one point onwards.

 

I also want to reinforce Shevek on one point: Forum consensus is nowhere near representative. About 90%** of the people who play a game will never, ever visit the game's forum, blog, Facebook page etc. But their opinion is no less valuable than those who write 10 posts/day. They are still players.

I agree that it's the minority of the market that gives significant input in the forums, but to put it blunt - it's not this minority's problem that it's a minority They are still a group which pursues its interests. Another argument - if someone doesn't voice their opinion or take part in democratic procedures they are not really in a position to complain that their opinions are not taken into account by the decision-makers. And lastly - if the majority of backers don't express their opinions, then nobody who is more voiced can play "representative of the silent majority", because nobody has the information to be such a representative.

 

What do you think is the developers' reaction to this phenomenon - would you suppose that they are using the hardcore fans' (those who express their) wishes and concerns to infer what the softer periphery would be content to roll with? That's what I imagine they do.

 

 

And in this day of overwhelming social media connections it might sound unbelievable, but it's actually very hard to get a representative opinion because of this. There are many, many people who simply buy, install and play. The game doesn't become a part of the daily routine. The people who do engage in discussion are usually the hardcore ones, who play a lot, replay it again and again, and they tend to have a skewed vision of what the game is.

 

Go into this forum's member list, and start checking out the ones who are backers. You will find a lot of people who didn't even visit these boards since the crowdfunding period. Yet their ""casual"" -- double quote on purpose -- opinion of the game is no less valuable than yours or mine.

The problems of information overload. Similar to what the player experiences with ultrafast combat and cluttered UI I don't think it's harder to get a representative opinion, it just requires an increase in computing power in order to analyze all the inputs coming from the public. That's due not only to the increased bandwith for communication, but to the increased size of this public. Games are now mainstream pastime, very much like TV and music. The market's now radically different from when BGII came out, but you probably don't need me to tell you that.

 

What's my concern isn't that it's become more difficult to find out what the public wants - there are professionals in that area who can narrow it down very accurately. My concern is that when a publisher (one publisher in particular comes to mind when it comes to RPGs) has the capability to know what the public at large would buy, this publisher will most probably start producing sh*t, or at least "sh*t from a hardcore player's point of view". From which comes my conclusion that we, the hardcore players who would invest the time to betatest and post in forums, are a minority. And for a minority to push forward its agenda it has to stick together and stay coherent, no way around this

 

You are of the incorrect impression that they value your opinion as much as the qa teams when it comes to detailed feedback. They really don't. As has been mentioned several times in these very forums, they are really appreciative of our overall ~*feels*~ as josh likes to say. This is more important to them than x minuscule bug or y bug.

I wouldn't assume to know which opinions the developers value or how they make their decisions in such detail as you assume to know. Edited November 28, 2014 by Gairnulf

[Shevek]

Gairnulf:

 

Oh lord...

 

There is no agenda. The "minority" here is not a monolithic single entity that has a single driving set of goals or beliefs.

 

We are not an underclass being oppressed by some faceless corporation/power structure/dictator/whatver. I am not sure what you are being influenced by, be it the Hunger Games or 1984, but we dont need Katniss to free us from Big Brother here. This is not a political venue. All this talk of silent majorities and the democracy and Poli Sci 101 stuff is gibberish here.

 

This is discussion forum. We discuss, disagree, agree, suggest, rant, rave, praise and ponder. We all do these things differently and for different reasons. The devs occaisionally poke their heads in and look at the patterns of our interaction. They may or may not see something of value from our discussion. We may note perceived issues but they choose whether or not to acknowledge them and what, if any, solutions are required. There are no real votes. There is no agenda. We are not a Congress, Council or Cabinet.

 

They are the developers. We are but a small, tiny representation of their fans. That is the extent of the value of this forum. At the end of the day, this is for the best. They are putting this together. Thats a good thing since they are far more qualified than any of us.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Shevek

[Gairnulf]

Gairnulf:

 

Oh lord...

 

There is no agenda. The "minority" here is not a monolithic single entity that has a single driving det of goals or beliefs.

Of course it isn't. Nobody is claiming it is.

 

We are not an underclass being oppressed by some faceless corporation/power structure/dictator/whatver. I am not sure what you are being influenced by, be it the Hunger Games or 1984, but we dont need Katniss to free us from Big Brother here. This is not a political venue. All this talk of silent majorities and the democracy and Poli Sci 101 stuff is gibberish here.

More wrong assumptions. Honestly I don't really know what you are talking about. What is Katniss? Never mind, I don't want to know.

 

This is discussion forum. We discuss, disagree, agree, suggest, rant, rave, praise and ponder. We all do these things differently and for different reasons. The devs occaisionally poke their heads in and look at the patterns of our interaction. They may or may not see something of value from our discussion. We may note perceived issues but they choose whether or not to acknowledge them and what, if any, solutions are required. There are no real votes. There is no agenda. We are not a Congress, Council or Cabinet.

 

They are the developers. We are but a small, tiny representation of their fans. That is the extent of the value of this forum. At the end of the day, this is for the best. They are putting this together. Thats a good thing since they are far more qualified than any of us.

I know what's a discussion forum Shevek. Please in the future ignore my posts if you don't understand them.

[Hormalakh]

When someone figures out how to mod out engagement mechanics, let me know. I'm willing to put up with the cheesy tactics of ie games of old without this terribly implemented mechanic.

[Shevek]

Gairnulf:

 

This might might have been my favorite quote of yours

 

Oh no. A single party's monopoly over the meaning of language that extends over everyone else means totalitarianism. I can't agree they determine the meaning of any term.

Man, lol, keep fighting the power man! Edited November 28, 2014 by Shevek

[Namutree]

 

Of course it isn't. Nobody is claiming it is.

More wrong assumptions. Honestly I don't really know what you are talking about. What is Katniss? Never mind, I don't want to know. 

 

 

 

Isn't that from Justice League Unlimited?

[Starwars]

More impressons, less drama.

 

I just played through all the quests (did a quick playthrough, so ended up skipping a lot of battles "around" the quests like the Spider Queen and much of the Skaenite dungeon). I just played on Normal.

 

-Felt a bit easy, though I didn't get into any of the really hard fights. I dunno, after playing it over and over I find it harder to really think about how the difficulty *should* feel. For Normal difficulty, I think it could do with being a *bit* harder but it's fairly close. And again, didn't get into any of the harder fights.

 

-Lord Halrond and the Skaenite "dungeon master" (at the end of the quest) are voiced now. Nothing really noteworthy about any of them, not horrible not great I think.

 

-Seemed like some dialogue was added here and there. There was some minor reactivity to my Merchant background that I don't remember seeing before. Not 100% sure.

 

-I added a Monk to my party and she kicked ass (played a Chanter as main character).

 

-Just "feels" wise, the update is a big improvement. Things seem to run more smoothly, less game-breakers. Getting closer to feeling like what it would feel like actually playing the final game though of course it has a ways to go. As less things can go wrong, the more smoothly the game plays, the more you kinda start to enjoy the actual content that fleshes out the world (the Skaenite scriptures and the "padding" for that quest is great in particular). Getting really excited for the final game.

 

-Enjoyed the spider additions in the cave. Ended up getting attacked from behind due to (I think?) "patrolling" spiders.

 

-Bug is causing the music not to play. Missing the ambient music, not missing the combat music. Again, I hope for a toggle for combat-music (not a fan of it in general), and also more sound toggles for voices and such.

[archangel979]

 

We are not an underclass being oppressed by some faceless corporation/power structure/dictator/whatver. I am not sure what you are being influenced by, be it the Hunger Games or 1984, but we dont need Katniss to free us from Big Brother here. This is not a political venue. All this talk of silent majorities and the democracy and Poli Sci 101 stuff is gibberish here.

More wrong assumptions. Honestly I don't really know what you are talking about. What is Katniss? Never mind, I don't want to know.

 

Katniss is main character from Hunger Games. She is face of people opposing the faceless corporation he is talking about.

 

I don't know how this relates to this forums, but Shevek is a special sort.

[GrinningReaper659]

There seem to be a bunch of people ITT getting upset about backers attempting to dictate design to the designers, but there's a huge difference between someone saying that they backed the game and now want to dictate design vs. someone saying they backed they game and now they'd like the company they backed to follow through on promises they made. If Obsidian decided that Pillars was going to have a Wasteland 2 style squad of four adventurers instead of a 'central hero' (as in a protagonist player character) as was promised, there would be a serious problem. If they said the game was going first person there'd be a problem because Isometric perspective was promised as well. Having an issue with them breaking design promises isn't an attempt to dictate design. In other words, these are/should all be discussions of whether or not the issue is an actual breach of the promise

 

I don't mind the combat as it was as of the first or second beta update when I did my playthrough. I don't hate the system and I felt that it provided a reasonable challenge which is all I really care about. I don't powergame and won't ever have 5 naked ranged units or engage in cheese such as kiting or the ironic engagement-kiting that is now possible, so that doesn't affect me too much. However, I don't like what the engagement system does to combat and I'd still enjoy the combat more if it were more like the IE games' combat; on top of that, my personal enjoyment of it doesn't factor into whether or not it fulfils the promise made in the KS pitch, which is what matters.

 

On a side note, the 1-time poster that droppped by with the link to DA:O's metacritic score sent me on an amusing few minutes of checking out scores for other games, and finding that Fallout 3 has a higher score than Fallout 1, Fallot 2, and Fallout New Vegas. Those gaming critics over there very well may have their fingers on the pulse of modern casual gamers, but they sure don't agree with my tastes and likely the tastes of many others that backed a game inspired by the IE games.

 

Anyway, I imagine that plenty of people would be satisfied with the game in its current state in terms of mechanics, but that doesn't mean it's delivered on its promises yet as 'plenty of people' are satisfied playing first person shooters and single player mmos and that's not what this game was promised to be. If they don't satisfy all their backers (which I'm sure is inevitable) that's fine, but if they don't follow through on making the game they said they would make for those that backed, that will be a problem. And before anyone accuses me of thinking that only I can define what exactly those design promises entailed, well, that's not what I think at all, disagreement over what the promises included is pretty much the only worthwhile discussion to be had here though (oh, and the 'feels').

 

Also, the devs should really acknowledge this issue with units fading into the backgrounds because it seems to be pretty serious, hopefully they're working on that.

[Gairnulf]

 

 

We are not an underclass being oppressed by some faceless corporation/power structure/dictator/whatver. I am not sure what you are being influenced by, be it the Hunger Games or 1984, but we dont need Katniss to free us from Big Brother here. This is not a political venue. All this talk of silent majorities and the democracy and Poli Sci 101 stuff is gibberish here.

More wrong assumptions. Honestly I don't really know what you are talking about. What is Katniss? Never mind, I don't want to know.

 

Katniss is main character from Hunger Games. She is face of people opposing the faceless corporation he is talking about.

 

I don't know how this relates to this forums, but Shevek is a special sort.

 

Now I remember. I wrote that series off as something targeted at pubescent girls. Never mind.

 

There seem to be a bunch of people ITT getting upset about backers attempting to dictate design to the designers, but there's a huge difference between someone saying that they backed the game and now want to dictate design vs. someone saying they backed they game and now they'd like the company they backed to follow through on promises they made. If Obsidian decided that Pillars was going to have a Wasteland 2 style squad of four adventurers instead of a 'central hero' (as in a protagonist player character) as was promised, there would be a serious problem. If they said the game was going first person there'd be a problem because Isometric perspective was promised as well. Having an issue with them breaking design promises isn't an attempt to dictate design. In other words, these are/should all be discussions of whether or not the issue is an actual breach of the promise

 

I don't mind the combat as it was as of the first or second beta update when I did my playthrough. I don't hate the system and I felt that it provided a reasonable challenge which is all I really care about. I don't powergame and won't ever have 5 naked ranged units or engage in cheese such as kiting or the ironic engagement-kiting that is now possible, so that doesn't affect me too much. However, I don't like what the engagement system does to combat and I'd still enjoy the combat more if it were more like the IE games' combat; on top of that, my personal enjoyment of it doesn't factor into whether or not it fulfils the promise made in the KS pitch, which is what matters.

That's pretty much how I feel, although I think combat could be made fun even with engagement, if the punishment for breaking engagement isn't so severe, and if the AI would actually learn to re-acquire targets, and weigh reacquiring targets vs. breaking of engagement, when it is in engagement... Of course that's easier said than done.

 

Anyway, I imagine that plenty of people would be satisfied with the game in its current state in terms of mechanics, but that doesn't mean it's delivered on its promises yet as 'plenty of people' are satisfied playing first person shooters and single player mmos and that's not what this game was promised to be. If they don't satisfy all their backers (which I'm sure is inevitable) that's fine, but if they don't follow through on making the game they said they would make for those that backed, that will be a problem. And before anyone accuses me of thinking that only I can define what exactly those design promises entailed, well, that's not what I think at all, disagreement over what the promises included is pretty much the only worthwhile discussion to be had here though (oh, and the 'feels').

 

Also, the devs should really acknowledge this issue with units fading into the backgrounds because it seems to be pretty serious, hopefully they're working on that.

That's why I am offering that we try to specify what the backers understand under 'feels' and under 'what this game was promised to be'. I was surprised that there were people opposed to this, as I think it would lead to us understanding each other better instead of going over the same arguments in every other thread.

[Shevek]

Again, there is no unified understanding.

[prodigydancer]

 the plot to BG of a bad guy killing your mentor/father (in BG1 a father/mentor multi-class) has been told a million times

You're desperately grasping at straws here because it has nothing to do with the plot of BG. Sarevok wasn't after Gorion and Gorion died only because he was protecting the main character. Now compare this with e.g. Dune where Baron Harkonnen actually hated Duke Leto and didn't care about Paul at all (until it was too late).

 

P.S. My apologies to everyone for offtopic. Just can't stand people badmouthing BG for no reason.

Edited November 28, 2014 by prodigydancer

[morhilane]

Anyway, I imagine that plenty of people would be satisfied with the game in its current state in terms of mechanics, but that doesn't mean it's delivered on its promises yet as 'plenty of people' are satisfied playing first person shooters and single player mmos and that's not what this game was promised to be. If they don't satisfy all their backers (which I'm sure is inevitable) that's fine, but if they don't follow through on making the game they said they would make for those that backed, that will be a problem. And before anyone accuses me of thinking that only I can define what exactly those design promises entailed, well, that's not what I think at all, disagreement over what the promises included is pretty much the only worthwhile discussion to be had here though (oh, and the 'feels').

 

underlined words: What someone define as what the dev promised is not constant from people to people.

 

I personally stop at "party based Rtwp combat isometric game somewhat like the IE games with an Obsidian plot" and POE is already delivering that.

[prodigydancer]

These people will make the game economically successful or not. They will probably decided if a Pillars of Eternity 2 gets made.

Great CRPGs tend to be economically unsuccessful. Sad but true. If everything Obsidian cares about right now is profit, PoE is doomed. (Doomed as a good RPG I mean, not financially.)

Edited November 28, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Kjaamor]

And because of people with your attitude Shevek, all we get is popamole terrible games these days, you will eat a bowl of dung handed to you and ask for seconds.

 

Whereas if there'd have been people like you getting your way in the mid-nineties, the IE games would never have happened! Oh, snap!

 

 

EDIT: (You accuse me of making snide comments from the 8th of November, I haven't, and for what it is worth I still like your points when you're saying something sensible. For the avoidance of doubt, the one above is a snide comment, in response to your own snide comment. Oh, snap!)

Edited November 28, 2014 by Kjaamor

[Namutree]

 

These people will make the game economically successful or not. They will probably decided if a Pillars of Eternity 2 gets made.

Great CRPGs tend to be economically unsuccessful. Sad but true. If everything Obsidian cares about right now is profit, PoE is doomed. (Doomed as a good RPG I mean, not financially.)

 

Not the IE games. They were successful. Which great CRPG's weren't?

[prodigydancer]

Not the IE games. They were successful. Which great CRPG's weren't?

This depends on your definition of success. As far as I know PS:T only made a tiny profit and IWD/IWD2 probably fared even worse.

 

Try to find a (non-J) RPG here.

BG, TES and ME series and that's all.

 

[archangel979]

IWD games sold well. Not as well as BG but well enough. PST sold much less than its fame within classic RPG community. Fallout games also sold much less than BG games.

[Sensuki]

When someone figures out how to mod out engagement mechanics, let me know. I'm willing to put up with the cheesy tactics of ie games of old without this terribly implemented mechanic.

I have already modded it out Hormalakh, if you want to play without it, I can send you my mod.

 

EDIT: (You accuse me of making snide comments from the 8th of November, I haven't, and for what it is worth I still like your points when you're saying something sensible. For the avoidance of doubt, the one above is a snide comment, in response to your own snide comment. Oh, snap!)

You know very well you've been following me around doing that, just as you have with this post. Replies to me like that take up about 80-85% of your post content this month. That's real constructive of you there bro.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Sensuki

[constantine]

They weren't included in the patch notes I don't think. They *never* give us proper patch notes. I have never known a developer not to do it. Even Iron Tower Studios which is like a two man project gives very nice detailed patch log notes.

 

Josh said on Something Awful that Might was changed to +3% per point, Dexterity to +3% Action Speed, Intellect to +6% AoE and +2 Deflection.

 

Very strange not to also bump CON to 3% per point, but I don't really care about Attributes because they're very easily modded, and anything that's easily modded isn't worth my trouble.

Won't you give it a try the way the devs have intented ? But actually you re doing so here in the beta.

[Kjaamor]

You know very well you've been following me around doing that, just as you have with this post. Replies to me like that take up about 80-85% of your post content this month. That's real constructive of you there bro.

 

I concede that in this thread our interactions have run decidedly off-topic, so this shall be my last post for the day in here, but I would like to politely point out that you respond to almost every topic in this sub-forum which makes it rather difficult not to 'follow you around'. If my posts are frequently replies to yours it is because you consistently engage back, and me disagreeing with you does not constitute a snide remark. Obviously that last one is the exception, but since it is a reply to your own snide remark, I think I'll cut it some slack.

 

...not that the mods necessarily should, so, as I say, I'll leave it there for the day.

[Dark_Ansem]

Am I the only one that feels combat slow now?

 

Mages still feel WAY underpowered lol

 

The VO was a nice surprise, and there's a lot of it! I am pleased, but I was all right also without it because I really like the game. however, there are many, many improvements that need to happen...

[Sensuki]

me disagreeing with you does not constitute a snide remark.

Your post history suggests otherwise.