American Riots, Michael Brown....is it justified ?

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

But setting all considerations aside, doesn't "accidentally killing a dude through the compression of the chest which triggers a host of existing medical conditions" constitute as manslaughter?

How would the police know he had existing medical conditions for that to be a consideration in whether they used a proper response to the situation?

 

 

Choking someone, was not a proper response to the situation.

 

That wasn't what aluminiumtrioxid's point was, his point was "accidently killing a dude through the compression of the chest which triggers a host of existing medical conditions"; thus my point is to question whether unknown pre-existing medical conditions can be considered at all before an action is taken by the police. Because they can't by definition; they're unknown.

 

This does not mean that taking the action is valid (or invalid) by necessity. Just that I don't see how the pre-existing medical condition can change that validity/invalidity of the action.

 

In essence, it was either right or wrong to choke/restrain the man or it wasn't. The medical condition couldn't have been known at the time so can't be a factor in determining the rightness or wrongness of the action.

 

Uh... you miss my point. And it is a point that trumps all others.

 

Choking the guy wasn't warranted.

 

Now, in a court of law, all that would need to be demonstrated in order to justify manslaughter or murder charges (different states have different criteria as to what legally constitutes murder, but intent is usually a key factor) is that the tactic used by the offender would be known by your average person to possibly cause death. In this case, the answer is yes. Choking someone is indeed a well known way to cause death, whether or not said victim has a medical condition.

 

In regards to the medical condition. Yes, that would be admissible in court, and if the DA was doing their job they'd hire a medical professional(s) to testify in regards to it, as is very common practice in trials against those who are not police. It would also be brought up in a courtroom (by a competent and incorrupt DA) that an average person should reasonably suspect that a man of the size of the victim would be likely to have at least one serious medical condition, with respiratory conditions being quite common amongst the obese (and increasingly common throughout the population in general; ie asthma is hardly a rare or unusual medical condition) .

 

But medical condition or not, and of paramount import is the fact that the guy is saying repeatedly that he cannot breathe as the officers pile on him, yet they do not relent.

 

In a better world the officer choking him would have been tried and convicted of at least manslaughter if not murder, with the others dog-piling on the guy accessories there to. But our world is so #@)$ed up right now you can have murder filmed and people will make excuses and justify it if it happens to be the police perpetrating the crime.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Gromnir]

It is true what gromnir says - subduing someone without hurting them is a very difficult task, particularly if they go all in/drugged/mad. Hell, even wrestling for fun with my gf who is 5ft4 and 130something pounds is hard when I have to watch out for her at the same time. And I'm 6'3 208 pounds.

 

That said, I don't see the man being sufficiently violent or even the possibility of becoming violent to warrant choking him and piling on top of him. Its bad handling and bad policy to treat a hooligan out for a scrap and a fat middle aged father of 5 the same way, even if he is a small time criminal. 

see, this is what we mean 'bout pov. 

 

first, "piling on" is actual safer for everybody.  is easier for four guys to take a guy down w/o injury than it is for one guy to do so.... though in our experience there is a weird peer pressure kinda thing worth mentioning. if you got 6 guys present to restrain somebody, all 6 guys will likely do... something. nobody wants to be the biatch who just stood and watched. so, inevitably you got one or two guys doing something pointless. 

 

and again, the "choking him" stuff is, we believe, overstated. if the media were calling the move used a headlock, how many would be suggesting that garner's breathing problems were from a choke hold? with a properly applied choke hold, you cannot breathe enough to say, "i can't breathe." we mighta attributed garner's breathing issues to his asthma, or police pushing his chest into the pavement, or the fact an extreme stressed man with a heart condition and weighing 300 lbs might have difficulty breathing while he were face-down on a hard concrete sidewalk.  the force used could very easily still be excessive, but we honest don't see the "choking him" stuff... though we think that along with the bigger question of excessive force, the issue is close enough to merit a jury trial.

 

grab somebody up around the head and or neck is not necessarily choking. every high school wrestling program would need disbanded immediately if that were the case.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we see that more than confusion as to what is a choke hold, which we think is understandable and up for argument, there is more than a few folks who gots 0 idea what is needed to be getting a manslaughter conviction... first or second degree. 

Edited December 4, 2014 by Gromnir

[Drowsy Emperor]

Well if its not the "choking" (upon viewing the video it would appear the cop is not executing a real choke hold, although with the man being so fat and in poor health, even the act of being handled this way contributed to his death), or the "piling on" what's left to fall under excessive force? Or is excessive force the actual decision to use this kind of approach in this particular situation?

Edited December 4, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[aluminiumtrioxid]

It is my understanding that officer Chokey McMurderson had prior problems with abusing authority, so him walking away after causing the death of an unarmed dude who's been crying out "I can't breathe" nine times while being dogpiled on by his colleagues before kicking the bucket understandably ticks me off.

 

I wouldn't want to live in a country where a policeman faces no consequences for this.

Edited December 4, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Amentep]

Uh... you miss my point. And it is a point that trumps all others.

 

Choking the guy wasn't warranted.

No I didn't miss your point, it was (and is) irrelevant to my point.

 

I never addressed that choking was/wasn't warranted because it had nothing to do with what I was talking about.

[Gromnir]

is there wanton disregard for human life? possibly. second degree manslaughter has a Subjective standard.  did garner go unconscious and stop breathing and cops just stood and watched? we can't tell from the video.  according to the autopsy, there were no damage to the throat. this means that even if a choke hold were applied, it might be difficult to show that the choke hold caused mr. garner's death... in spite aluminum's colorful naming convention. nevertheless, as we said above, we can't tell with certainty that there were no choke hold even if at first blush we don't see it. also, as much as the med practitioner in the house might hate to hear, their occupation is a much art as science. get different experts to talk to the jury and explain what is damage they saw in autopsy and cause o' death and what actual were cause o' death.  notice already that some folks is shifting their focus... is piling on that were the evil as much as the possible choke hold. is "piling on" constituting wanton disregard for human life? unlikely, but with garner's complaints regarding breathing it might? if so, at what point were the piling on excessive?  were the piling on actual causing the death? etc.

 

we see enough that we would wish a finder of fact to get a better looksee regarding the death o' mr. garner.  

 

again, in our estimation, the #1 thing people should be taking from the video is that resisting arrest is exponentially increasing the likelihood of tragedy.  honestly folks, make the following a headline: a 300lb man with asthma and a heart condition died while resisting arrest. who is shocked?  am supposing we could blame mcdonalds along with the cops, eh? 

 

we believe a dialog can and should be started regarding what force is necessary and warranted to arrest anybody, regardless of race. the thing is, if the video we saw o' mr. garner is genuinely shocking and appalling to people, we suspect universal police body cams is gonna be creating a whole new set o' problems. 'course, we bet that if we saw same video without there being death of mr. garner, and w/o media exploiting choke hold stuff, we think most americans wouldn't see much wrong with the police behavior. a very large man were resisting arrest. six officers restrained him without resorting to a shooting or a rodney king-esque nightstick beating. as far as typical police restraints we has seen or been a part of, mr. garner's experience were not particularly violent.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 4, 2014 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

Kind of sad that resisting arrest can be a capital offence at least in acceptable results by police. Does seem to be the reality, heh.

[Gromnir]

Kind of sad that resisting arrest can be a capital offence at least in acceptable results by police. Does seem to be the reality, heh.

no reason to indulge in hyperbole. the vast number o' arrests made in the US each year do not end in death of police or suspect. on average, over the past ten years, there is an average o' 150 cops killed per year while making arrests. is a dangerous job.... though am believing that considerably more people die in farm equipment accidents, so perhaps the danger is overstated, for both cops and suspects. regardless, the cop's job becomes exponentially more dangerous when they gotta make an arrest and the suspect resists. the danger increases for suspects and cops. that should be axiomatic.

 

there is bad cops out there. there is cops who is racist and we suspect there is more than a couple cops who enjoy hurting people. the existence o' racist, evil, sadistic cops is all the more reason Not to resist arrests. resistance is indeed giving police an excuse to use force... and again, acting surprised that somebody gets hurt when force is applied is naive. with a little bad luck, it takes very minimal trauma to cause a person's death. slip in bathtub. fall off bottom step of a ladder, etc. have force result in death when the suspect resisting arrest is a 300lb man with a heart condition and asthma is shocking because?

 

do suspects get killed by cops when they is doing nothing wrong? you betcha, but that ain't what we had happen with mr. garner. 

 

'course, on another juvi hall side note, our experience suggests that resisting arrest when the cop is a k-9 unit is far more likely to go bad for the suspect. those dogs do not mess around. we has seen some very ugly wounds that were the result o' k-9.  perhaps what we need more than body cams is more k-9. folks resisting would likely drop precipitously.

 

am kinda kidding about the k-9.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 4, 2014 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

Well not really hyperbole. But was watching some NYPD guy saying something similar - though he had more of weird "resist and you get what you deserve" tone. But it is the case that you should treat the cops like any dangerous person especially if you are a certain sort.

 

As for cop deaths, I will search more later but only found 100 deaths total so far this year - some from accidents. Not too sure how dangerous it is as I have not checked for ones wounded.

[Gromnir]

Well not really hyperbole. But was watching some NYPD guy saying something similar - though he had more of weird "resist and you get what you deserve" tone. But it is the case that you should treat the cops like any dangerous person especially if you are a certain sort.

 

As for cop deaths, I will search more later but only found 100 deaths total so far this year - some from accidents. Not too sure how dangerous it is as I have not checked for ones wounded.

oh, we would call it hyperbole to say,  

 

"Kind of sad that resisting arrest can be a capital offence at least in acceptable results by police. Does seem to be the reality, heh."

 

is intentional over/misstatement for effect, no? if resisting arrest is a capital offence, it has a ridiculous low % o' defendants who actual get a literal or figurative death penalty.

 

regardless, the number o' cop deaths we seen for this year thus far were 113. in 2007, cop deaths were 191. in 2009, cop deaths were 125. we made an average 'cause there is so much fluctuation in a given year.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[kgambit]

Well not really hyperbole. But was watching some NYPD guy saying something similar - though he had more of weird "resist and you get what you deserve" tone. But it is the case that you should treat the cops like any dangerous person especially if you are a certain sort.

 

As for cop deaths, I will search more later but only found 100 deaths total so far this year - some from accidents. Not too sure how dangerous it is as I have not checked for ones wounded.

 

113 fatalities this year as of Dec 4 according to this site:  http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/

 

107 fatalities thru November of this year according to this site:  http://www.odmp.org/search/year

 

The 150 per year figure Gromnir quoted is based on a 10 year average dating back to 2004(?).  http://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/

Edited December 5, 2014 by kgambit

[Malcador]

Yeah found that site but was not sure how true it is. At least here deaths in duty includes stuff when they decide to be an hero and drive with no belt on and so on, so does take some closer looking.

 

But ok, cops have a dangerous job by nature as they have hazards, I suppose whether or not lots of them get put in the ground isn't all that relevant. A lot of them seem to let that go to their head when it comes to dealing with people, doesn't seem de-escalation is a tool they have.

 

As for the hyperbole, fair enough but it seems quite common around that people will shrug when some guy resisting cops gets abused as he deserved it - cop here was spat on so he punched a handcuffed guy several times, was punished harshly with a $50 fine though.

 

I blame all these damn cop shows for making cops abusing people acceptable

Edited December 5, 2014 by Malcador

[Valsuelm]

Alright. For the first time in over 25 years on BBS/internet forums, I'm putting someone on ignore.

 

Please let me know if Gromnir actually starts attempting to post in correct English, and I'll take him off of it. It's certainly not something I'm expecting however.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Gromnir]

keep in mind that we see mr. garner's death as an unnecessary tragedy.  is a tragedy when somebody driving down the highway dies when their car hits a deer. is also a tragedy when folks is struck by lightning and die. perhaps a different cop coulda' deescalated the situation better, but in spite o' media attempts to make ferguson and cleveland and ny the same, we don't have another shooting death o' an unarmed black man. we got a fat guy with a heart condition and asthma that died while resisting arrest.  there were no obvious deadly force used on an unarmed man, though that is arguable, and we think the question deserved a trial.  perhaps the greatest tragedy is that we suspect that the recent events in ferguson and ny and the media poop storm such instances kicked up is gonna make it more difficult to deescalate arrest situations in the near future. could be wrong on that... hope we are. regardless, what we see in the present situation is a terrible accident. a terrible accident is a tragedy, but a tragedy don't require a villain. heck aluminum could be correct and maybe the cop in question is "officer Chokey McMurderson," but that don't mean that what he did in the video rises to the level o' criminal negligence... though that don't preclude department discipline and possibly another big cash settlement by the city.

 

 

oh, and we will start posting with correct grammar just as soon as val stops pretending to be an expert on law and history. is not something we expect however.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

pointless correction:

 

we actual checked on the farm equipment death thing and according to the cdc (why?) there were 374 deaths of folks dying from farm related injuries in 2012.  'course there is only 42% as many cops as folks working on farms. in other words, the likelihood o' dying while working on a farm is similar to cop chances of dying. also, based on our scientific analysis o' canadian culture (we has watched every kids in the hall episode at least twice) we suspect that the rate o' farm related deaths in canada is higher than the US.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

I am sure that after 10 years and 5000 posts, Gromnir is going to suddenly change his syntax so that Val will feel more comfortable reading his posts.  

 

 

The numbers of police that go out on disability are more telling, if I recall correctly they are pretty high.  That's a huge cost to police departments as well. 

Edited December 5, 2014 by Hurlshot

[Malcador]

Police deaths in Canada average maybe 5-6 over the last couple of years. Last one was a speeder, heh.

[Hurlshort]

Over the course of this case, I've actually changed my stance quite a bit when it comes to the police.  While I still believe the majority of officers are trying to do the right thing in a difficult profession, I think law enforcement is in need of some major reform.  Just the fact you can't really get a clear number of shooting deaths by police officers in a year shows a terrible lack of accountability and oversight on a Federal level.  

 

 

Over the years I've also changed my stance on Gromnir's posting style.  

[Gromnir]

Police deaths in Canada average maybe 5-6 over the last couple of years. Last one was a speeder, heh.

*nod* 

 

based on our kids in the hall viewing, we expect low canadian cop deaths. very scientific.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps in response to hurl observations, we started posting this way on crpg boards in 1999, so closer to 15 years.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

Police deaths in Canada average maybe 5-6 over the last couple of years. Last one was a speeder, heh.

 

In Finland there has been 110 police officers that have died in line of duty in last 97 years, which includes our civil war and World War II, in years after the wars there has been 21 officers that have died in line of duty. So it is quite hard to perceive situation and culture where cops in USA live from my point of view, because over hundred officer dying in line of duty every year is lot even for 60 times larger country. 

[Barothmuk]

Lol this thread.

[Namutree]

Lol this thread.

How insightful. 

[Valsuelm]

Over the course of this case, I've actually changed my stance quite a bit when it comes to the police.  While I still believe the majority of officers are trying to do the right thing in a difficult profession, I think law enforcement is in need of some major reform.  Just the fact you can't really get a clear number of shooting deaths by police officers in a year shows a terrible lack of accountability and oversight on a Federal level.  

 

 

Over the years I've also changed my stance on Gromnir's posting style.  

 

The Feds lack the authority to compel State or local jurisdictions to report, though I don't think they'd exercise that authority even if they had it. If the populace knew the number of people assaulted and killed by police every year in the U.S. more would be less inclined to blindly support them. That number is not low.

 

That said, some departments do self report. Whether or not they tell the truth is another matter. Hit up your local or state government if you want reform. The feds are not the answer on this one.

 

Also, believe it or not, in some jurisdictions killing people is a badge of honor for the police. A buddy of mine is an attorney in a low population county in Tennessee where the Sheriff proudly exclaims his department has killed three people under his 'watch' over the last decade or so he's been Sheriff. From talking to my friend, he told me that one of the killings was definitely justified, however the others should have seen the cop arrested and tried. None of the police involved shootings were ever reprimanded and all are still on the force. The local populace however votes for this sheriff overwhelmingly every election. There's a lot of blind support for the police out there. A lot. And that's the number one reason I'd say they get away with it.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Wrath of Dagon]

If a guy is resisting arrest, the cops have no choice but to subdue him. What else are they supposed to do? They could've beaten him with billy clubs, but that would've been worse. They could've tasered him if they had tasers, but he might've died from that. They actually chose the least violent form of arrest. As far as several piling on, how else are you supposed to restrain a 300 pound man? How were they supposed to know how sick he was?

Edited December 5, 2014 by Wrath of Dagon

[Volourn]

"If a guy is resisting arrest, the cops have no choice but to subdue him."

 

Subdue not murder. Also, they ahve plenty of choices. he chose the cold blooded murder choice. He did NOt choose 'the least vioent' method of arrest.  Unless you think 'murder' is the 'least violent' LMAO

 

\Why do people really believe they do the cops a favor when they defend  evil scumbag cops? You do nobody a service by defending pigs like this scumbag.  EVIL TO THE CORE.