PoE - A game for Road Runner only? "Pausable Real Time Combat"

[Sensuki]

Well going by past posts he seems to think it had something to do with me and matt516 - newsflash, it did not.

[Namutree]

Well going by past posts he seems to think it had something to do with me and matt516 - newsflash, it did not.

I know. The idea to introduce increased action speed came from Josh while he was at lunch. Not to mention that the system OE has went with so far doesn't at all reflect your system. If I recall correctly you never suggested taking out interrupt. Neither did I or PrimeJunta. I wonder who he's talking about.

 

Nipsen, who did OE get these ideas from?

 

The biggest complaint against the old system I can recall from the IE fans was that attributes didn't have enough impact. Not that the system needed to be scrambled as it has been. That, and that percentages were more annoying to deal with than integers. Integers were never introduced however. It seems like this new system didn't come from the beta testers, but Josh Sawyer.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Namutree

[Sensuki]

I am thinking of making an integer based system mod

[Namutree]

I am thinking of making an integer based system mod

Now that's a change that would have been worth doing.

[nipsen]

 

 

Nipsen, who did OE get these ideas from?

 

Yeah.. well, I can only guess, but I'd say it probably was a combination of three things: 

 

1. Forum feedback washed through OE's and Paradox' Q&A folks. It's common in betas that community managers conflate different concerns from different contexts into a single sentence, for example.

2. Specific forum people who create extremely elaborate explanations for why such and such is a correct and common point of view, creating a certain amount of pressure to respond to it from a pure PR perspective, even if the substance is bonk.

3. Developers making a compromise between the existing solution they presented, and an arbitrary simplistic "press X to roleplay" approach. Because it's been established that if no compromise between ..what was initially proposed, and something else, no matter what it is.. is made - then the developer has no concern for the community, and does not respect their audience. Which is always bad for some weird reason.

 

So yes, of course Josh and Obsidian made the changes. But Josh in particular and Obsidian otherwise have been very open about how seriously they take feedback, as well as what the intention with the beta was. Paradox on their end had a statement where they declared the feedback - whatever it was - massively important. And it seems reasonable to assume that the proposed changes from the feedback prompted the delay of the game as well, even as that was something we did not expect would happen, and Josh had signaled was unlikely.

 

Basically, I expected (like I suspect a lot of backers who just followed the kickstarter updates did) the game to launch in the state it was in the first beta, with the worst bugs ironed out. I don't think that was an unreasonable guess either. The system was solid, the mechanics were deep and satisfying without being extremely convoluted. There were, as always, presentation issues and some coding crash - we know Obsidian by now. And I would have preferred Obsidian to make some improvements to the animation, and add a few tweaks to the combat resolution. And some of the visual feedback ...particularly the interrupts and "crisis resolutions" - I wasn't the only one who said that it's not clear that it's actually an interrupt that happens, instead of that the action simply doesn't trigger, or the queued event simply disappeared, for example. Same with the speed of the game - some of the fights were basically decided after the first second in real time, and without nudging players to pause at the right time, this would simply not make any sense. They'd get wasted, in spite of having a good opportunity to win, because they missed the opportunities that were right there (that a similar situation in BG would look similar but resolve completely different of course did not help). 

 

I obviously don't know if it would work, but some sort of slow-down pause, and a factor pause depending on how much is actually happening might have worked. There were some suggestions about that early on, but I guess... possibly too complicated (although possible, with the 3d models and effects generated in real time), and not really much payoff anyway. Therefore - expected release: minor improvements, and the game would launch as was, with some added feats and talents. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would work just fine. Perhaps it would be improved via patch? Visual overhaul might be a side-project for the add-on perhaps.

 

Then again, it wasn't difficult to see how people would reason when figuring out the system was broken either. A player would start to figure out tricks to win the battles (double fireball+might builds, backstab frenzy, rush with barbarian in every fight, etc.), and simply rely on that to win. And worry, genuinely, that casual players would get stomped. Because they didn't spot the opportunities the system actually gave the player. That perspective is easy to see, even though it's built on basically not understanding how the ruleset actually works in both cases.

 

So instead of taking a creative approach to the presentation issues - which is what this really is about - Obsidian ended up choosing to streamline the ruleset, add arrows and very obvious UI cues that.. frankly weren't needed, streamline the stats (every character is essentially determined by class), and spend an awful lot of time tweaking the rules and the foundation. Which, as I predicted, and others predicted as well, ended with not solving the actual problems after all. And that is what is prompting people to suggest removing engagements, remove interrupts, remove range, remove combat rolls, etc. Soon comes the suggestions to remove OP classes, OP weapons, OP monsters. And i suppose by the time the game launches, there's a guy with a stick waving it at monsters until they die from boredom, like in an MMO.

 

But that's the problem. And I don't really mind telling you, over and over :D, that I'm disappointed when grown up, intelligent people start to abuse their fairly exclusive presence on the forums here, to promote their own ego at the exclusion of everything else. I don't care how much you believe reverse-compiled code is identical to the high-level code - it's not how it works. You don't sit on either the code or the design-documents, so how in the world can you say something authoritative about the specifics of either? I don't care how much people want generic experience boosts that screw the level-balance from grinding lock-picking skills in a side-area before moving on with the "main quest" - you don't know the reasoning for why a chapter-progression was picked, or how the scalable encounters as well as the dialogue engagements (that presumably do not scale) are put together. So I don't want to hear some unpleasant moron insist over and over that "this design is so broken it could only have been something Josh came up with during lunch". You can't possibly know what you're talking about, and frankly all of you around here are old enough to be able to respect that and say: "I am guessing at this, but this is what I think". You know.. "It appears to me from looking at such and such that this is what happens. I don't know if that's intentional!". Is that really so hard?

 

And is it so freaking hard for Obsidian to hire a community manager who isn't some super-fan that makes the people on the bioware forums look like reasonable, pleasant folks you'd randomly chat with over a beer? Someone who can at least entertain the idea that a fan may, occasionally, have certain unprompted outbursts on forums that may, perhaps, not always need to be taken as the total undisputed truth of everything?

 

Meanwhile, you know how significant this game will be for Obsidian, whether it does well or not. And you know how sensitive Obsidian will be to suggestions from the community because of that. Perhaps it would be even worse than normal because of the public fund-raising aspect - if they do not respond to community feedback, is that going to be a serious problem for them when the release comes? Is there a higher demand for engagement with the community than otherwise? Etc.

 

So when it's simply too much to ask (like I actually did ahead of the public beta) that people treat the beta-access as a privilege, and work with Obsidian, on their terms, to produce as useful feedback as possible. And when it's too much to ask of Obsidian's community manager folks to create structured ways that feedback can be collected, to avoid having them run around composing coherent retellings of fractured whining from completely different contexts on the forums. No doubt contributing to Obsidian making very bad decisions from this dolled up version of incoherent forum-rants. Then that put together is a huge disappointment. 

 

Because it led, like it has before (with much larger and almost as experienced developers as Obsidian), to a bunch of useless changes that didn't achieve what people imagined the changes would, while it also took away effort from areas that actually could have been improved.

 

I mean, sorry about being long-winded, but that's basically the entire fairy-tale in a nutshell. The end.

Edited November 25, 2014 by nipsen

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah, that was an entire fairy-tale, and it sure dragged on.

However, here's the reality. The very beta launched at the premise of the attributes being ...

 

Update by Josh Sawyer, Project Lead

 

 

High Priority Feedback

 

As participants in the Backer Beta, you're free to give feedback on whatever you feel like. However, if you'd like to be extra-helpful, there are a few areas where your thoughts would be especially helpful.

 

 

• Attributes - Do you find any attributes invaluable, such that you would never build a character without emphasizing that attribute? Are there any attributes you consistently dump because they don't seem to have apparent value? Do the attributes seem to skew away or toward different classes?

 

If you would like to discuss the Backer Beta or give any feedback, we invite you to head over to the Pillars of Eternity Backer Beta Discussion forum.

 

 

Again, thank you all for everything you have done to make Pillars of Eternity possible and thank you for participating in our Backer Beta! With your help, we can improve on Pillars of Eternity and make the final product as fun as it can be.

 

Now, Nipsen, I'll assume you'll give it a rest, lest you be delusional or something.

 

Peace!

[archangel979]

Wait. Nipsen, you are not even a PoE backer. Wtf are you spending so much time here debating stuff for a game you don't really care about?

[Sarex]

You don't have to be a backer to care about a game...

[archangel979]

So you care because you plan to pirate the game once it comes out? You want to influence game design so you can have your best pirated game available?

 

Or you are trying to influence the game and if you don't get your way you are not going to play it at all?

 

Both don't sound like caring much.

[Namutree]

So you care because you plan to pirate the game once it comes out? You want to influence game design so you can have your best pirated game available?

 

Or you are trying to influence the game and if you don't get your way you are not going to play it at all?

 

Both don't sound like caring much.

Maybe he cares, but wants to wait and see if the game is worth buying.

[Sensuki]

He was a backer, but he requested a refund.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68843-official-appeal-to-refund-kickstarter-pledge/?view=findpost&p=1518422

Edited November 25, 2014 by Sensuki

[Namutree]

He was a backer, but he requested a refund.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68843-official-appeal-to-refund-kickstarter-pledge/?view=findpost&p=1518422

Strange that he mentioned you and Matt, but completely ignored the fact that OE didn't implement your ideas. The decision to get rid of interrupt came from Josh; not you.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So Nipsen's still around and still butthurt? Huh, guess some folks just like being angry.

[Gairnulf]

He was a backer, but he requested a refund.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68843-official-appeal-to-refund-kickstarter-pledge/?view=findpost&p=1518422

So, both him and archangel are trolling.

[Gfted1]

Lets steer this back on topic, please.

[Lephys]

New build tonight (allegedly). Hopefully the new changes will contribute to pacing issues in combat, 8P

[nipsen]

 

He was a backer, but he requested a refund.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68843-official-appeal-to-refund-kickstarter-pledge/?view=findpost&p=1518422

So, both him and archangel are trolling.

 

... yes, Gairnulf. I'm desperately trying to find a person on here able to hold two thoughts in their head at the same time -- and I'm completely failing at it. Which is really the whole plan all along. To troll people on the forum with reasonable arguments, to prove that pilfering suggestions off here is about as clever as panning for gold in a toilet. That's how insidious I really am. Well done. You've completely figured me out here.

 

Look. In this world, it is possible to buy PoE in the store when the game comes out. I will do that and then review the game when i want. Makes sense?

 

I wanted a refund, and I got the refund processed - because I was not comfortable with sponsoring Obsidian to make a community-designed game. I paid to the kickstarter to have Obsidian make the game, not for random weirdness to be inserted by fan request, and not for entire designs to be thrown out because some obtuse jackass on the internet doesn't intuitively spot the reason for having "interrupts".

 

I also wanted a refund and to have the beta-codes revoked and the kickstarter privilege removed - because as it was I don't want to be on the credits, or even be known to have been part of the beta or even sponsoring the project. Which is going to go down in the short history of games-development as one of the most incredible community-developed failures we've ever seen.

 

Does that fill a small part of the void in your minds, so we can avoid being distracted - and go back to discussing the designs again? Let's find out!

[Sensuki]

No fan requested the removal of interrupts, nipsen. No one. That was Josh Sawyer - the lead designer.

 

Many of us still don't agree with that decision either.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[nipsen]

So what you're saying is that Joshua Sawyer from days of yonder is in a kind of disagreement with Josh of the present? That Josh of the present is starting to wonder about how wise and powerful Joshua of the past really were? That he was kind of a curious anachronistic idealist, maybe, that thought people were supporting the game because they wanted something interesting and engaging - that took advantage of not having to obey the ad&d conventions better suited to pen and paper?

 

*sigh*

 

Look. There's been a steady stream of complaints about the combat flow from the lot of you. It ranges from how it's not similar enough to the IE games, to that specific game-mechanics are "difficult" to intuitively understand. I said from the beginning that it was a presentation issue, and that the system is actually easier to grasp than what the IE games are based on. That removing elements of the rulesystem, like was instantly recommended by the backseat designers, would probably make it worse. And that it inevitably ends in cutting everything and only having the empty shell left.

 

But Obsidian are responding to your concerns, and their internal testers' concerns, about the "fact" that the game-flow isn't sexy enough. You do understand that, surely? That the disagreement between Joshua of the past, who wanted an early release of the game. And between Josh of the glorious future, who is experimenting with the design to a fault. That that doesn't pop out of nowhere?

 

It's just like with the 50 page manifest. You and Matt proved that you didn't understand the way the game worked, and that you would rather write a 50- page, tear-inducing bore-fest about mathematical formulas and stochastic distribution, rather than spend one braincell on figuring out something new. And Obsidian can't ignore that. That their fans, their die-hard fans, are physically incapable of understanding a ruleset that they internally have very likely figured was extremely easy to figure out.

 

I mean, this is just anecdotal. But when I gave a friend the draft of that bootleg pen and paper "adaptation" of the PoE ruleset I'm trying to nail down, along with an example character - do you know what he said? "You're going to describe all that with just these variables?". Ten minutes later, he'd made his own character variation, and it was something I didn't spot on beforehand. That still is possible to map effortlessly for the game-master.

 

This ruleset is brilliant.

 

And you're succeeding at making Obsidian remove from the game in an attempt to make the cooldown meters and engagement mechanics seem more sensible. Like I've said, you are arguing for making an MMO. A boring MMO that has no evolution of anything throughout the game - on character skill, or on combat tactics and strategy.

 

But that's what "gamers want", right now, I guess? Dragon Age without the painfully badly written dialogue? Anything more than that, and only someone like.. that damned Joshua Sawyer guy from the past could possibly enjoy it, yeah?

[Sensuki]

It's just like with the 50 page manifest. You and Matt proved that you didn't understand the way the game worked

 

[Namutree]

This is the last time I'm going to comment on the issue of,  "Nipsen thinks the community is why poe is so messed up":

 

1) This is not a community designed game. Literally none of the fans suggestions on attributes were implemented. NONE. Every change was thanks to Josh. Not the community. Stop suggesting that this is a community designed game when it isn't. Josh went out of his way to establish that he planned to get rid of interrupt and add action speed increases BEFORE he ever read Sensuki's and Matts ideas. They are not to blame for the change, nor is the community. Please accept this.

 

2) The old system was not great. Resolve was near useless for back row classes like the Priest or Ranger, and the attributes made almost no impact on your characters at all. Not to mention percentages are harder to comprehend than integers. Stop pretending the old system was brilliant. It wasn't terrible, but it was far from brilliant. Again, the new system is flawed as well; thanks to the flawed ideas from Josh Sawyer like getting rid of interrupt.

 

EDIT: Sorry Gifted1; I'm done on this now though.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Namutree

[Labadal]

I also wanted a refund and to have the beta-codes revoked and the kickstarter privilege removed - because as it was I don't want to be on the credits, or even be known to have been part of the beta or even sponsoring the project. Which is going to go down in the short history of games-development as one of the most incredible community-developed failures we've ever seen.

 

Then why even bother posting on their forum about this failure?

 

(I'm not telling you to leave, but I will use myself as an example: I had enough of BioWare, and their games did not compare to their games of old. What I did then was to stop visiting their forum because their past few games showed me that they were not the studio I used to like.)

Edited November 26, 2014 by Labadal

[Gairnulf]

 

 

He was a backer, but he requested a refund.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68843-official-appeal-to-refund-kickstarter-pledge/?view=findpost&p=1518422

So, both him and archangel are trolling.

 

... yes, Gairnulf. I'm desperately trying to find a person on here able to hold two thoughts in their head at the same time -- and I'm completely failing at it. Which is really the whole plan all along. To troll people on the forum with reasonable arguments, to prove that pilfering suggestions off here is about as clever as panning for gold in a toilet. That's how insidious I really am. Well done. You've completely figured me out here.

 

Look. In this world, it is possible to buy PoE in the store when the game comes out. I will do that and then review the game when i want. Makes sense?

 

I wanted a refund, and I got the refund processed - because I was not comfortable with sponsoring Obsidian to make a community-designed game. I paid to the kickstarter to have Obsidian make the game, not for random weirdness to be inserted by fan request, and not for entire designs to be thrown out because some obtuse jackass on the internet doesn't intuitively spot the reason for having "interrupts".

 

I also wanted a refund and to have the beta-codes revoked and the kickstarter privilege removed - because as it was I don't want to be on the credits, or even be known to have been part of the beta or even sponsoring the project. Which is going to go down in the short history of games-development as one of the most incredible community-developed failures we've ever seen.

 

Does that fill a small part of the void in your minds, so we can avoid being distracted - and go back to discussing the designs again? Let's find out!

 

I don't have time for people with issues. Welcome to my ignore list.

[nipsen]

^I don't understand. That's not going to stop me from reading your posts and disapproving sarcastically, is it?

 

I also wanted a refund and to have the beta-codes revoked and the kickstarter privilege removed - because as it was I don't want to be on the credits, or even be known to have been part of the beta or even sponsoring the project. Which is going to go down in the short history of games-development as one of the most incredible community-developed failures we've ever seen.

 

Then why even bother posting on their forum about this failure?

 

(I'm not telling you to leave, but I will use myself as an example: I had enough of BioWare, and their games did not compare to their games of old. What I did then was to stop visiting their forum because their past few games showed me that they were not the studio I used to like.)

 

..because I'm fascinated by people around here who can take everything you say literally, but at the same time somehow don't seem to have the same definition of a specific word from one day to the next. 

 

No, seriously, though.. Not that I see how this would interest anyone. But since you ask.. I wrote a preview of the beta, and I've promised to write a follow-up. Where it seems I'm likely going to have to reverse everything I said about the PoE beta (which is embarrassing enough).

 

And dropping by is a way to keep my attention on PoE in the meantime. And I'm genuinely curious about how this will turn out. It would be the first time Obsidian has ended up with a game that didn't keep the design and the threads woven from that into the gameplay elements, even if the visual representation was in tatters because of it. Which is.. what I like about Obsidian's games. Arguably, it's what led to Obsidian using kickstarter to fund their project, instead of getting in with a publisher.

 

So since the opposite approach to the importance of design and mechanics is not something I normally see from Obsidian, and the explanations I got on PM were.. very strange, to put it mildly.. I'm interested in seeing what happens towards release. Which is relatively soon.

[Shevek]

That removing elements of the rulesystem, like was instantly recommended by the backseat designers, would probably make it worse. And that it inevitably ends in cutting everything and only having the empty shell left.

I must admit that possibility of this concerns me. This is one reason I have advocated against cutting out existing game mechanics. Like you, I am more open to design decisions taken by Tim Cain, MCA and Josh Sawyer than to decisions by a bunch of faceless unknowns on a forum. Thankfully, I have the feeling that they have locked in the feature set and are instead focused on bug fixing and tidying systems up (adding talents, etc) at this point.