Saving the Wizard Class

[Stun]

 

The stream showed us the crappyness of wizard. Well he got lucky with criticals but otherwise spells didn't do much. Also boring spells that all just do damage, where is the Sleep spell? Where is Charm Person?

Sleep,

Ciphers have more of the charm powers, and he also just chose a really boring selection of spells.  It would be just like if he inscribed armor, magic missile, and burning hands as a level one mage.

 

LOL

 

Case in Point:

 

Area of effect: 2.5m radius.

Duration: 10 seconds

 

And the punchline: Level 5.

 

In the IE games, a sleep spell that can target a maximum of about 2 medium sized enemies who are bunched together and lasts 10 seconds would be, at best, Level 1, and would rank just a little bit higher than friggin infravision in usefulness.

 

In PoE though, a wizard cannot hope to unleash such game changing power until he's about 10th level.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Quetzalcoatl: That's not correct.

 

See link:

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16524/spells-and-hit-dice

 

In PnP, it affects 4+3 lvl HD, but in BG it has been simplified to "monsters above level 4 is immune".

BG1 is for a party of level 1-8.

 

I have used it extensively when playing BG 1: EE this year. I'd say, it's one of the best spells around in that game.

I posted in error. My post was supposed to say the 'first few levels'. And naturally I was talking about its implementation in video games. Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with making spells like Sleep more consistently useful. This game has a higher level cap (and if they're planning on sequels, they have to plan out spell progression for even higher levels).

Edited November 14, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[IndiraLightfoot]

Quetzalcoatl: No worries! I can live with another class having a Sleep-like spell, but like Stun points out, a cramped area of effect and for merely 10 secs in this hectic form of combat, and at level 5 at that. No thanks!

[Quetzalcoatl]

That's the base effect. Your stats will improve the duration and area of effect. Being 'asleep' also reduces your Reflex and Deflection scores.
 

And Sleep is always a game changer. There's a reason why the D&D spell didn't work on monsters with more than a few hit dice.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[archangel979]

 

 

 

The stream showed us the crappyness of wizard. Well he got lucky with criticals but otherwise spells didn't do much. Also boring spells that all just do damage, where is the Sleep spell? Where is Charm Person?

Sleep,

Ciphers have more of the charm powers, and he also just chose a really boring selection of spells.  It would be just like if he inscribed armor, magic missile, and burning hands as a level one mage.

 

Except in IE games he can choose Sleep and other interesting spells. Here he can only choose from what you call them "boring selection of spells".

 

He just linked to a wizard sleep spell.

 

You're also forgetting that D&D sleep spell was useless past the first few levels, since it was capped by hit dice. Not what I'd call an interesting spell.

 

Oh, as the post continued talking about Ciphers I assumed it was a Cipher spell.

 

Edit: lol lvl 5 spell? Or is it level 5 caster needed?!

 

At this point I don't plan to play this game until someone mods in a proper IE game.

Edited November 14, 2014 by archangel979

[Stun]

Edit: lol lvl 5 spell? Or is it level 5 caster needed?!

Oh no. It's a 5th level spell, which means your wizard won't be able to cast it until he's high enough to cast 5th level spells. (which I believe is 9th or 10th level)

 

Just to put things in perspective, the power of 5th level spells in the IE games was more along the lines of summoning Elementals; Unleashing a massive Cloudkill that instantly kills anything that's 6th level or lower and makes everything else take 10 points of damage per round for an extended period of time; Mass confusion in a 30 foot radius; Complete immunity to non magical weapon attacks for upwards of 2-3 MINUTES; and immunity to whole spell schools for turns.

 

So yeah, lets now settle for a 5th level sleep spell that lasts for about 3 sword swings and can only target one or 2 creatures, and then lets pretend that Josh Sawyer didn't manage to suck all the magic out of magic in the name of Balance <gag>

Edited November 14, 2014 by Stun

[archangel979]

 

Edit: lol lvl 5 spell? Or is it level 5 caster needed?!

Oh no. It's a 5th level spell, which means your wizard won't be able to cast it until he's high enough to cast 5th level spells. (which I believe is 9th or 10th level)

 

Just to put things in perspective, the power of 5th level spells in the IE games was more along the lines of summoning Elementals; Unleashing a massive Cloudkill that instantly kills anything that's 6th level or lower and makes everything else take 10 points of damage per round for an extended period of time; Mass confusion in a 30 foot radius; Complete immunity to non magical weapon attacks for upwards of 2-3 MINUTES; and immunity to whole spell schools for turns.

 

So yeah, lets now settle for a 5th level sleep spell that lasts for about 3 sword swings and can only target one or 2 creatures, and then lets pretend that Josh Sawyer didn't manage to suck all the magic out of magic in the name of Balance <gag>

 

This is beyond terrible. Even 4e and 5e D&D didn't destroy magic up to this level. And lvl 1 fighter can knock down one guy two times per combat..... if magic stays like this I am truly not going to play this game until someone mods it. And will consider this game a failure as a IE spiritual successor and false advertising on KS and tthey can forget about my support until end of time. I am not one to let myself get fooled twice. Edited November 14, 2014 by archangel979

[Sensuki]

Two Knockdowns is a bit silly, yes.

 

The problem with per-encounters like that is they make it the automatic best option to open with. Can't say I'm a fan of them personally, I'd rather that they be capped at 1/encounter.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Sensuki

[Stun]

And Sleep is always a game changer. There's a reason why the D&D spell didn't work on monsters with more than a few hit dice.

There are several reasons why Sleep in D&D didn't work on creatures who were higher than 4th level.

 

1) Because Sleep was just 1st level spell

2) Because Sleep has a giant 30 foot radius - it's meant to be used to disable whole packs of Orcs, kobolds, etc.

3) Because Sleep has a massively long duration (5 rounds per level)

4) Because Sleep was unusually difficult to resist (-3 penalty to saving throws)

[Mr. Magniloquent]

This is my least productive thread ever. I regret creating it.

 

I can at least hope that this thread may be held in effigy as the utter abomination and failure of this class and the broader magic system.

 

When the obnoxious guest on the twitch stream selects the Wizard class at 1:26, Josh's inflection rises almost to a crack as he says, "Alright". I think he knows.

[archangel979]

This is my least productive thread ever. I regret creating it.

 

I can at least hope that this thread may be held in effigy as the utter abomination and failure of this class and the broader magic system.

 

When the obnoxious guest on the twitch stream selects the Wizard class at 1:26, Josh's inflection rises almost to a crack as he says, "Alright". I think he knows.

Haha! I noticed that as well, Sawyer was not happy about that choice lol.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

I can at least hope that this thread may be held in effigy as the utter abomination and failure of this class and the broader magic system.

 

When the obnoxious guest on the twitch stream selects the Wizard class at 1:26, Josh's inflection rises almost to a crack as he says, "Alright". I think he knows.

[Doppelschwert]

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Status_Effects

Dunno, but the wizard gets plenty of screen time in this list, so I'm not so sure why he's not that versatile?

 

Also, to be fair for once, compare this list

http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate/magescrolls.html

to this list

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wizard_spell

and disregard the spells from the add-on in the former list.

 

The first list is the only list I could spontaneously find on the spell selection in vanilla BG1, which should be the object of comparison to this game. You're free to offer me a more exhaustive list.

 

Just to put things in perspective, the power of 5th level spells in the IE games was more along the lines of summoning Elementals; Unleashing a massive Cloudkill that instantly kills anything that's 6th level or lower and makes everything else take 10 points of damage per round for an extended period of time; Mass confusion in a 30 foot radius; Complete immunity to non magical weapon attacks for upwards of 2-3 MINUTES; and immunity to whole spell schools for turns.

 

 

Or according to my list, in a comparitable game you could actually summon some skeletons, have the cloudkill you mentioned or make it freeze a bit. Not so interesting somehow.

 

Apart from that I don't see how the numbers couldn't be rebalanced to make the wizard stronger by giving him spells/encounter or greater effects, it's still beta. I agree that there needs something to be done, but why is everyone so hostile and acting like obsidian won't?

Edited November 14, 2014 by Doppelschwert

[Stun]

Or according to my list, in a comparitable game you could actually summon some skeletons, have the cloudkill you mentioned or make it freeze a bit. Not so interesting somehow.

What? It's not comparable in the slightest, even if we intentionally ignore the fact that UNLIKE PoE spells, just about every single spell on your BG1 list increases in power as the mage levels.

 

The Wizard list you gave also contains a ton of summoning spells, dimensional spells (like dimension door, shadow door), Invisibility spells of different kinds, Charm spells etc.

 

Your list also doesn't take levels into account. No, PoE does NOT get a "good enough" pass simply because it decided to take a 1st or second level BG1 spell, nerf its duration down to worthless levels and then present it as a level 5 or 6 super-power.

 

 

But forget all that, because the comparison is STILL a joke. PoE's cap is 12th level, not 9 like Bg1's. Perhaps you should dig up vanilla IWD1's spell list, since it'd be a more accurate comparison and then we can scoff at your attempts to compare PoE's "slicken" spell, with Icewind Dale's Power Word stun, or Death Spell, or Smashing Wave.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Stun

[Mr. Magniloquent]

What should be used for a more accurate comparison is the BG2 spell selection for levels 1 through 6. That is the expectation that everyone has been asking for and operating off of. Even if you consider that an unfair comparison because many of the spells were added in a sequel game, PoEs spell list does not hold up to scrutiny against even Icewind Dale level 1 through 6 wizard spells. I had always regarded IWD's spell selection inferior, and never understood why since the games utilized the same engine. Now I know.

 

The reason we regard Obsidian (Mr. Sawyer) as hostile towards spell casting, is because he is. It's that simple. It starts with the fear of the "omni-class", so magic with any sort of utility is removed--including those with flexible uses like Scrying and Invisibility spells. It worsened with the fear of out-moding party members, so summons were removed. Then came the terror of damage potential, which made spell damage mediocre at best. Closely followed was the horror of "hard-counters", which eliminated effects like petrification, death, and disintegration. Likewise there was the scourge of the meaningful protections which granted immunities of any form or duration, so they too were laid low. Finally, the most unique and intriguing of spells--of which have never been reproduced in an video game for 15 years....Contingencies, Simulacrums, Project Image, Time Stop, (Limited) Wish, etc. etc.....all purged so that this game might not be tainted by what created an unrivaled classic.

 

That's why were are skeptical. Everything good, intriguing, and superior about spell casting in Baldur's Gate has been eviscerated by design.

 

 

Apart from that I don't see how the numbers couldn't be rebalanced to make the wizard stronger by giving him spells/encounter or greater effects, it's still beta. I agree that there needs something to be done, but why is everyone so hostile and acting like obsidian won't?

 

For the reasons above, I have no hope that the spell selection will improve. It shall not, by edit of Mr. Sawyer. What can improve though, are the miserably handled degrees of everything else. That was actually the point of this thread. In my proposal, I have extensive rebalanced figures for both damage, durations, casting times and much more.

• Spell damage is rebalanced to make it meaningful, considering its limited use, as well as put the wizard's participation rate about that of any warrior.
• Durations were rebalanced to make them meaningful beyond 2 or 3 weapon swings.
• Spell casting and recovery times were balanced and scaled over spell level, so that they appropriate reflect their power level. This is important, as it help improve the "asynchronous" nature of PoE combat.
• Improved logical consistency of the class by adopting a different resource mechanic that also better reflects the wizard's (imposed) role.
• Provided a desperately needed friendly-fire mitigation method.

That's really what I hoped to discuss within this thread. These are things that are desperately needed and have the potential to be changed. We're not getting a good spell selection. That has been ordained from "on high". What may be changed though, is the execution of what ashes remain of the class, and how that can be improved. Woefully, nobody seems to want to discuss this.

[archangel979]

Hopefully the future Pathfinder game will be better. My hope Paizo will not let Sawyer butcher their setting and rules with his obsessions.

 

At least now we know when someone saying "they finally got rid of someone watching over what you are doing" is not always a good thing. I wish Wizards were still in the picture to slap Sawyer on the hand each time he tries to butcher the most notable things from IE games.

Edited November 14, 2014 by archangel979

[aeonsim]

 

http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/102623912546/do-you-think-that-wizards-currently-have-enough-casts

 

aeonsim said: Do you think that Wizards currently have enough casts per rest? In the beta on hard I use up all my wizards spells while killing the bugs (~3 encounters) with little stamina loss for the party. Are we still going to get some per encounter spells for the wizard at some point to help them stay relevant in combat? At 5th lvl it'd be nice to have a 1or 2 per encounter/free cast for the lower spell lvls (1,2) then every 3 lvls get an additional per Encounter cast of any non-max lvl spell.

 

I think wizards/priests/druids should all probably have one more max cast and after our play week, I think all classes should start with one ability that has per-encounter uses.  Even with companions that people picked up as they went through the game, they didn’t like having characters with purely passive or purely per-rest abilities.

 

Looks like Wizards/Priest/Druids may get a little boost or some type of per encounter ability in the near future.

[Yonjuro]

...

Or according to my list, in a comparitable game you could actually summon some skeletons, have the cloudkill you mentioned or make it freeze a bit.

...

 

 

 Fair enough. Prior to ToSC, there weren't a lot of level 5 spells.

 

 

... Not so interesting somehow. ...

 

 Are you sure? Suppose you only have Summon Skeletons and Cloud Kill at level 5 plus lower level spells. 

 

 You can summon some skeletons and cast stinking cloud into some enemies. Many of the enemies will go to sleep but the skeletons are immune. (Add in ToSC spells and you can cast Greater Malison to make this more effective).

 

 You can set up an ambush where you summon skeletons, cast invisibility on a party member and use the skeletons and the invisible party member to lead enemies into the ambush point (which could include a well timed cloudkill) - this was a useful tactic all the way into BG2 when the (low level) skeletons weren't very useful in melee anymore. 

 

 Feel free to dislike either of these tactics, but they illustrate that the spell system was more than the sum of its parts. Your turn. Stack some of the PoE spells for an interesting strategy or tactic. Also, as an exercise, try stacking some BG spells other than the ones I already mentioned. You will find a lot of good combinations even in BG1 (and an explosion of possibilities when you get to high levels of BG2).

 

..

Apart from that I don't see how the numbers couldn't be rebalanced to make the wizard stronger by giving him spells/encounter or greater effects, ....

 

 Certainly, but the PoE Wizard currently plays more like a BG2 Archer than like a BG Mage. Adjusting the power of the spells doesn't fix that.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Yonjuro

[Quetzalcoatl]

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Malignant_Cloud

[Mr. Magniloquent]

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Malignant_Cloud

 

I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make by linking that. None of the kind of tactics that Yonjiro mentions will be possible in PoE. There are effectively no summons, no invisibility, you cannot stealth while in combat, combat spells cannot be cast before combat beings, and immediately end once combat ends. It's what Stun has been arguing. All of the "magic" has been taken out of magic. We're left with contrived, nerfed, and boring facsimiles of what was good about spell casting in the IE games and expected to like it.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 There are effectively no summons,

The druid and chanter have about a dozen summoning spells between them, and I believe the wizard has at least one summon spell. Any character can use figurines to summon stuff.

 

you cannot stealth while in combat,

That's because the stealth in this game functions as actual stealth, dependent on factors like enemy proximity and how long you're in the enemy's line of sight. It's not the 'turn invisible (even right in front of an enemy)' mode from the IE games which wasn't a good implementation of stealth at all. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any invisibility spells, you're right about that.

 

 

We're left with contrived, nerfed, and boring facsimiles of what was good about spell casting in the IE games and expected to like it.

This strikes me as a touch dramatic.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Doppelschwert]

Quetzalcoatl made some excellent points and I'll reiterate.

 

Admittedly, a wizard in PoE can't do the same stuff as a wizard in any of the IE games. However, that doesn't really matter anymore for actual combat tactics as soon as you consider a party with more than one wizard, which you probably had in the IE games anyway.

Instead of two wizards in an IE games you can have any combination of wizard / cipher / chanter in PoE to more or less get the same number of spells per category per spell level, because summons, crowd control, afflictions and damage spells are all covered with these three classes.

 

The only thing that is missing this way are invisibility and teleport spells, I'll give you that. On the other hand, I'm almost sure that stuff like contingency may make a return in the addon or PoE2, so there isn't really missing as much from the game as people pretend it is.

 

Regarding prebuffing: Hate me all you like, I'm glad it's gone. I also doubt it gives you the magic feels to look at the screens for some time seeing some icons stack on your characters, which is repetetive for the most part and not really engaging.

 

You can hate balance all you like as well, but I think it's a fair compromise when I'm able to pick up characters I actually like and like to play instead of having at least one wizard, one cleric and one tank in every party because the game rapes me otherwise.

[Shevek]

Currently, I do not see the point of a Wizard in any party. Even with the increase in AoE from int promised in the next patch, I wouldnt make a wizard. The problem stopping the current implementation from at least being acceptable is the spell damage is far too tame. I have said this before, but the fix is a simple numbers tweak. Take the spell damage and duration numbers and double them. Leave the number of casts alone. After that, the wizzie may not be the same as IE but it will at least be a respectable glass cannon. This wont make the Wizzie great but it will at least be ok and useful when you need the big guns.

 

I understand why some folks would like a more robust spell list but that isn't going to happen. OE isnt going for it and doesnt have the time even if it wanted to. I can understand some of their points too. It wouldnt do to have one caster get the spells apportioned to others, I guess. Still, I am not sure if the spell list couldnt have been made a bit more interesting without stepping on the toes of other casters.

 

I do think OE may consider boosting spell damage numbers a bit. If they don't, as I mentioned earlier, I am sure we will be able to. After my first play through, I have no problem modding the game to get the numbers right and I will have to mod the game to even consider having a wizard in my party.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Shevek

[Captain Shrek]

It definitely could have been made more interesting. It's not like the current spell list is totally original. The D&D roots are right at the back of it. Considering the spell list for D&D, there is no dearth of inspiration. 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

 

 There are effectively no summons,

The druid and chanter have about a dozen summoning spells between them, and I believe the wizard has at least one summon spell. Any character can use figurines to summon stuff.

you cannot stealth while in combat,

That's because the stealth in this game functions as actual stealth, dependent on factors like enemy proximity and how long you're in the enemy's line of sight. It's not the 'turn invisible (even right in front of an enemy)' mode from the IE games which wasn't a good implementation of stealth at all. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any invisibility spells, you're right about that.

 

During combat, you will not be able to stealth around a corner when LOS is broken and ambush an enemy with a sneak attack when they pursue in PoE. This is a legitimate tactic, and is not possible in this game.

We're left with contrived, nerfed, and boring facsimiles of what was good about spell casting in the IE games and expected to like it.

This strikes me as a touch dramatic.

 

 

Summons cannot be cast outside of combat and vanish at combats end, and are almost the exclusive province of Chanters. Even still, combat tends to be over for me by the time I actually even get the chance to invoke a summon. How wonderfully useful. Better hope that summons counts for something too, because it's going to be a long wait before you're graced with the privilege to cast one again.

 

Blights for the druid and the petty "lightning clone" or whatever wizard gets is hardly equivalent to what the IE games provided. The summoning provided with pathetic by comparison both in capability and enjoyment, and does nothing to aid with wizard class itself. It remains a shell. Again, none of the tactics Yonjiro mention will be possible in this game.

 

Nearly every single spell in this game is a mediocre Not-D&D facsimile. Sleep *ahem* Call to Slumber is a weaker version of a 1st level spell that you cannot even use until level 10. Stoneskin *ahem* Ironskin gives you a paltry DR bonus for 10 attacks, rather than block one physical attack for every two levels. If you don't understand why that distinction is important, particularly at higher levels, then you don't understand the nuances of IE spell casting.

 

The rest are more of the same, applying various degrees of the same effect for worthless durations even when they aren't being invalidated by a graze. All of the amazing illusions spells will never happen in this game. The sequencers, the contingencies, counters, summons, wish spells, all gone. Everything about magic was stripped down, made bland, then appropriated to other classes. The wizard has nothing left by a very poor and ineffective interpretation of 4th Edition D&D.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Mr. Magniloquent