Sensuki vs Medreth [Youtube Series]

[prodigydancer]

"Better" is subjective but there are inherent differences that are hard to overcome. E.g. in RTwP you can counter a non-instant spell and in TB you generally can't do that. Again, this works both ways. If enemy AI is good enough (or even if you're simply ambushed and can't instantly get aggro off mages) casting spells that have long cast time may be pretty hard in RTwP. In TB it doesn't matter as long as you have enough AP. Welcome to Divinty: Original Sin where you can CC-spam every fight.

[Sensuki]

Not all TB games are like that

Have you played Knights of the Chalice ?

 

Some of the best TB combat I've played

 

 

Jagged Alliance 2 is one of the best as well.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

 

Personally however I haven't found turn based combat systems to be limited or boring,

Almost all implementations of TB do limit player's micromanagement choices because combat sequence during every turn is governed by initiative. This is particularly bad for party based games with cross-class combos - you may have to fine tune every character's stats towards a specific initiative value. And if initiative is (partially) random it's even worse.

 

In sci-fi games TB combat also tends to favor camping - basically taking a favorable pre-fight position and abusing choke points. Which brings us to the boring part. Sniping from cover and relying on "ambush" mechanics (if available) is hardly exciting.

 

In fantasy games TB encourages CC spam and substituting summons for tanks.

 

This sounds like your only TB fantasy experience is Divinity Original Sin. 

 

Go play ToEE or already mentioned Knight of the Chalice. 

 

And as far as CC spam, you just described all IE games. CC spam was trademark of most spell battles. Battles where you didn't need to use CC spells, they were super easy anyways.

No it doesn't :/ Turn-based combat is actually very good with quite a few units, almost always better actually. Knights of the Chalice doesn't promote camping  , nor does The Banner Saga, however Expeditions: Conquistador does.

Expeditions: Conquistador battles were always designed to overpower the player if you went out to fight directly. The "problem" (it wasn't a problem to me, I liked the challenge and didn't care what I had to do to beat it) was in design, not its turn based system. Edited November 1, 2014 by archangel979

[prodigydancer]

No. I played ToEE though and I understand that TB combat can be quite advanced. And I'm not really against TB. I'm against TB fans with their seemingly irresistible urge to ask for TB in every CRPG project. They've already ruined TToN which had every right to be an RTwP game.

[Sensuki]

I voted for TB in TToN

 

I haven't said turn PE into a turn-based game though, stuff that. I would like a good RTwP game for a change, rather than a bad one.

[archangel979]

No. I played ToEE though and I understand that TB combat can be quite advanced. And I'm not really against TB. I'm against TB fans with their seemingly irresistible urge to ask for TB in every CRPG project. They've already ruined TToN which had every right to be an RTwP game.

Considering it will be using Numenera, I don't see how it would work as RTwP. Hard to take a completely new system designed for TB and turn it into RTwP. If TToN was still using IE engine, I would agree with you. Edited November 1, 2014 by archangel979

[Sensuki]

Yeah that's why I chose it as well - using WL2 combat engine and using Numenera P&P system.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Sensuki

[Namutree]

I voted for TB in TToN

 

I haven't said turn PE into a turn-based game though, stuff that. I would like a good RTwP game for a change, rather than a bad one.

That's a rare sentiment among developers. After the IE games' success developers decided they hate money and went on to never make a game like that again. Though every time they want to market their mediocre shovel-ware; they decide to name drop the IE games in order to ride on the coattails of the IE games' commercial & critical success.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Namutree

[Sensuki]

Tried killing Medreth first this time, fight went a bit quicker I think

 

[Karkarov]

Not a bad call to kill him first.  I have done the fight a couple times, always win but it isn't unusual for BB Rogue to go down to Deep Wounds or something similar.

[Sensuki]

Yeah, and if you do any damage to the Monk but don't focus fire him down shortly after, he'll start 1-shotting the whole party from +120 burning damage from Turning Wheel.

[prodigydancer]

1-shotting the whole party from +120 burning damage from Turning Wheel.

Wasn't the whole point of grazes to make damage less bursty?

Edited November 3, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Lychnidos]

That damn name will make me develop dyslexia. 

[Sensuki]

Can you say cheese?

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

That certainly explains why my druid shell maiden worked so well. I went into the fights with her all shelled up, and all the baddies focus on her (if I did it all correctly), and then rest of my party used ranged attacks, even AoE spells, over that enemy jumble, and then rinse repeat. This is almost game breaking (although it can be fun at times).

 

And once again: Notice how supernaturally fast the enemies are moving, between a few of your pauses, they go from A to B in an instant.

[Sensuki]

Because under no circumstances are you allowed to kite in this game 

 

The sad thing is - it's so easy to mod out Melee Engagement, but the attack animation system and the Enemy AI is not built to actually do anything but stand there and attack you if engaged. I'm not sure how much that will change between now and release, but I'm definitely going to go on a big campaign to get it removed in favor of smarter AI, cleaner attacks against moving targets and other non-retarded 'sticky' aspects of classes/monsters that better suit RTS style gameplay.

 

The only problem is there's a lot of people that like the 'stand still and do nothing' gameplay of modern RPGs, where you don't have to move your units in combat. Perhaps many of the devs themselves also prefer that. So it might be a challenge.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[Cubiq]

Yeah you could have nuked everybody, including Medreth, with the aoe spells since Withdraw also protects you vs spell damage.

It doesn't stop poison or bleeding effects from being applied though.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Cubiq

[Seari]

NwN3: Pillars of Eternity

 

edit: Sanctuary is basically invisibility for clerics that breaks if you do anything hostile.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Seari

[Sensuki]

That's what the Withdraw description says as well.

 

And yeah it does play more like Neverwinter Nights 2, even if 'controlling' your characters feels more IE because it's locked axonometric / isometric view.

[archangel979]

That's what the Withdraw description says as well.

 

And yeah it does play more like Neverwinter Nights 2, even if 'controlling' your characters feels more IE because it's locked axonometric / isometric view.

Which means they failed and I am sorry to give them money. I don't care for next NWN much.

[Seari]

Withdraw is such a ****ty name for the spell, while Sanctuary is perfect. I guess this is another instance of changing things just for the sake of it.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Eldritch Aim, is pretty nice you can usually get a couple of spells off after it.

 

I'm also finding "Fetid Caress" (lvl2 Wizard) to be pretty effective it doesn't have a massive AoE but you can usually catch 2-3 enemies (and the poor fighters :-D) with it and the combination of Paralysed and Sickened (big -ve to all defences and most attributes) makes them an easy target for anyone and anything.

The wiki claims -40 for Def, Ref & -100 dex (P) and -20 Wil, Fort & -1 all Ats (S) though I think it may be a little higher in the current build (not certain though).

 

 Hrm. I thought about using Eldritch Aim to boost spell accuracy, but I've never actually done it because the description says it only boosts "Ranged and Melee" accuracy. I did not believe the spells were inclusive to the ranged stipulation.

 

The crystal shard attack puts a hurt on me, but yeah, the real problem is indeed that... yep, I can't see my bloody characters in the middle of it all.

 

At the very least, if they're not gonna tone down the spell effects, at the *very* least, character selection circles should cut through all the effects so we can at least get a grip on where we are.

 

That ability generally results in a total-party-wipe for me as well. I will agree that this effect is excessive. I can't see much when it strikes, but considering it eliminates my party of level 7 to 8 characters in about 6 seconds....there isn't much to look at right now!

Edited November 6, 2014 by Mr. Magniloquent

[Seari]

Well if it was intended as the True Strike spell, which I'm guessing it was, then it shouldn't affect spells.

[Sensuki]

That spider that can cast Crystal Shard can do it multiple times in a row. On my playthrough last night it cast the spell four times in a row because it was stuck at the back of a logjam of spiders (they're too big for the narrow spaces in the cave).

I think I lost four characters because of it. My Rogue killed it with an Arbalest bolt, but she was the only character left alive.

 

I think they're renaming D&D spells to avoid any potential lawsuits from Hasbro/WotC ? Funny because other games use names like "Magic Missile" with no penalty though - even not D&D games.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

Here's a Ranger version