Eurogamer on Combat XP, Turn-Based Battles

[Zeckul]

Obviously RTwP combat can work very well and be a lot of fun, otherwise I don't think we would have given Obsidian 4M$ to create a new "Infinity Engine". Black Isle made successful games based entirely on the strength of that approach (IWD), so the proof is in the pudding.

 

At this point it's just a matter of improving the UI responsiveness, AI targeting and pathfinding, and fine-tuning all the parameters.

 

So I entirely disagree with the idea that the combat would have been better implemented as turn-based, that seems like an absurd thing to say.

[PrimeHydra]

 

I wasn't referring to your post, Hydra(Except the Script AI stuff).

 

Ah, sorry--my bad. I didn't see anyone claiming that turn-based-combat was a must-have, though. If so they are mistaken!

[Matt516]

 

Also this: "If you want an Orlan with the build of a towering Aumaua, or a human-sized dwarf, you can."

I think thats refering to the Orlan being able of getting the same stats and class as the Aumaua and human but not the racial traits.

 

 

Well, the language of the sentence makes me think they actually meant size - I think they were confusing the Godlike ability to be any class template as a universal thing.

[Namutree]

Obviously RTwP combat can work very well and be a lot of fun, otherwise I don't think we would have given Obsidian 4M$ to create a new "Infinity Engine". Black Isle made successful games based entirely on the strength of that approach (IWD), so the proof is in the pudding.

 

At this point it's just a matter of improving the UI responsiveness, AI targeting and pathfinding, and fine-tuning all the parameters.

 

So I entirely disagree with the idea that the combat would have been better implemented as turn-based, that seems like an absurd thing to say.

TB is easier to implement than RTwP so maybe it would have been better implemented.

 

That said; TB is lame and poe is better off without it. Especially if Obsidian wants poe to be associated with the IE games.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Namutree

[PrimeHydra]

TB is easier to implement than RTwP so maybe it would have been better implemented.

 

That said; TB is lame and poe is better off without it. Especially if OE to be associated with the IE games.

 

 

As the code exists now, my guess is it would be easier to streamline and augment the RTwP system. Going to turn-based would require a lot of new UI such as "action points", not to mention loads of balance changes.

 

While I don't think TB is lame per se, it would be a major break from the IE game feel. They don't need to go this route.

Edited September 9, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[Namutree]

 

TB is easier to implement than RTwP so maybe it would have been better implemented.

 

That said; TB is lame and poe is better off without it. Especially if OE to be associated with the IE games.

 

 

As the code exists now, my guess is it would be easier to streamline and augment the RTwP system. Going to turn-based would require a lot of new UI such as "action points", not to mention loads of balance changes.

 

Yeah, you're probably right.

[Panteleimon]

 

 

Also this: "If you want an Orlan with the build of a towering Aumaua, or a human-sized dwarf, you can."

I think thats refering to the Orlan being able of getting the same stats and class as the Aumaua and human but not the racial traits.

 

 

Well, the language of the sentence makes me think they actually meant size - I think they were confusing the Godlike ability to be any class template as a universal thing.

 

 

(Gaming)Journalism at it's finest.

[Matt516]

 

 

 

Also this: "If you want an Orlan with the build of a towering Aumaua, or a human-sized dwarf, you can."

I think thats refering to the Orlan being able of getting the same stats and class as the Aumaua and human but not the racial traits.

 

 

Well, the language of the sentence makes me think they actually meant size - I think they were confusing the Godlike ability to be any class template as a universal thing.

 

 

(Gaming)Journalism at it's finest.

 

 

It's stuff like that that really makes me worry... I mean, if they got something that basic that spectacularly wrong, how much did they really play the game (or know what they were doing) anyway?

 

Could just be a silly mistake though.

[Fiebras]

It was probably a silly mistake. Its just a first impressions thing and with these types of games that have a lot of information to process its reasonable to make mistakes like that. Hes not talking about the lore but the overall game experience so Its understandable that some details passed them by. Not to menton most "first impressions" people that go into an early beta arent gonna invest themselves into the game because everything might be subject to change and are just giving it a passing glace. They arent discussing the game everyday and re-playing the beta, unlike us.

Cut them some slack.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Fiebras

[Silent Winter]

This point deserves some serious debate--arguably more so than the XP thread. Granted, selection circles no longer overlap, but that hardly dilutes the argument.

 

For my part, I agree that turn-based combat would solve the issue. I'd be fine with a well-implemented system, so don't count me among the "purist" backers; fun trumps purity any day.

 

However, realtime-with-pause can work. The missing ingredient is AI scripts. Imagine playing an IE game without any basic scripts whatsoever, and clearing out a mob of baddies. Suddenly the micromanagement involved becomes more akin to the PoE beta. Realtime-witth-pause worked in the IE games because you could delegate no-brainer behavior, such as having your ranged character keep their distance or having a barbarian auto-engage their nearest enemy. Going up against a bunch of goblins requried a lot fewer clicks than tactically taking down a dragon. That's how it should be.

 

Without any sort of scripting, I think I'll be spending more time in pause mode than out of it, and will miss the balanced flow of IE-era battles.

I never use the scripts anyway - in IE games you could click 'attack' for your fighters and they'd keep attacking until foe=dead.  Managing but not really 'micro'.

Mostly it was the spellcasters that needed micromanaging - and AI for intelligent spell-use wasn't in it.

 

As for TB v RTwP - I've enjoyed both in various games.  TB worked well in Fallout (though I felt combat was a bit slow) and TOEE (until there were an army of foes, then it was tedious).  Prefer RTwP for PoE as it's like the IE games, whose combat I prefered overall.  More stuff happening simultaneously, no long waits to kill a pack of xvarts/xaurips

Edited September 10, 2014 by Silent Winter

[redneckdevil]

And also could have only made one character and spent hours ingame with said character and wouldnt have realized their kistake because they didnt create another one.

[Shevek]

TB is nice but they cant do it. This is a crowdfunded game and part of the pitch was RTwP.

[prodigydancer]

/sigh

 

There's already a plethora of new turn-based games. Even TToN is going to be TB (which is very disappointing and completely against the spirt of P:ST).

[archangel979]

/sigh

 

There's already a plethora of new turn-based games. Even TToN is going to be TB (which is very disappointing and completely against the spirt of P:ST).

Why is it against the spirit of PST? You do know PST used IE engine only because they didn't want to make a new one for it due to time/costs. 

Who knows how it would turn out if they did make a new engine.

[Fiebras]

I wish more people instead of using the very vague term of "IE games" used the specific IE game they are talking about. All of them have different mechanics and design.

[prodigydancer]

You do know PST used IE engine only because they didn't want to make a new one for it due to time/costs.

No I don't though I'm sure inXile wants to spin it that way.

 

I was there on PS:T forums back when the game was being developed so I know what I'm talking about. Black Isle obtained IE license when the engine wasn't even finished. And then they heavily modified it for PS:T until it was exactly what they wanted.

Edited September 10, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Gromnir]

TB is nice but they cant do it. This is a crowdfunded game and part of the pitch was RTwP.

 

this

 

the "spirit" or "spiritual successor" stuff is mostly nonsense.  however, one o' the few kickstarter claims obsidian made were... well, we might as well quote.

 

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

 

"Combat uses a tactical real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities is one of the keys to success. The world map is dotted with unique locations and wilderness ripe for exploration and questing. You’ll create your own character and collect companions along the way – taking him or her not just through this story, but, with your continued support, through future adventures. You will engage in dialogues that are deep, and offer many choices to determine the fate of you and your party. …and you'll experience a story that explores mature themes and presents you with complex, difficult choices to shape how your story plays out."

 

we underlined and bolded for emphasis.

 

am wishing folks would quit all the "spirit" hokum-- doesn't mean anything. one o' the few features that obsidian were clear about in their kickstarter were the bit above about real-time with pause. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[archangel979]

 

You do know PST used IE engine only because they didn't want to make a new one for it due to time/costs.

No I don't though I'm sure inXile wants to spin it that way.

 

I was there on PS:T forums back when the game was being developed so I know what I'm talking about. Black Isle obtained IE license when the engine wasn't even finished. And then they heavily modified it for PS:T until it was exactly what they wanted.

 

Feargus said to use it, they didn't plan to use it originally. You can check out Matt Chat videos with Feargus as guest to get the full story

[Gromnir]

 

 

You do know PST used IE engine only because they didn't want to make a new one for it due to time/costs.

No I don't though I'm sure inXile wants to spin it that way.

 

I was there on PS:T forums back when the game was being developed so I know what I'm talking about. Black Isle obtained IE license when the engine wasn't even finished. And then they heavily modified it for PS:T until it was exactly what they wanted.

 

Feargus said to use it, they didn't plan to use it originally. You can check out Matt Chat videos with Feargus as guest to get the full story

 

we observed the old ps:t boards as well... which doesn't matter. bis reason for using infinity engine don't matter.  

 

is ps:t an infinity engine game?

 

yes?

 

is infinity engine games real-time with pause?

 

yes?

 

and most important, did obsidian specifically state in their kickstarter that they would use real-time with pause for combat?

 

yes?

 

if this were an issue, it were an issue before obsidian made their kickstarter pitch. doesn't matter how or why ps:t ended up as an ie game 'cause ps:t, for the actual relative small number o' people that played it, were an ie game with rtwp. and again, one o' the few specific claims made by obsidian in the kickstarter were that combat would be rtwp.

 

perhaps some thinks PoE would be better as a tb game. *shrug* is an intriguing hypothetical. after you folks save mr. schrödinger's cat, you can work on the PoE tb question.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[archangel979]

You misunderstand. This last conversation was about Inxile making Torment 2 turn based and some of use protesting that RTwP is not the most important characteristic of PST, not even its 10th. I could not care less if PST was turn based or RTwP, everything else about it was more important. Same for Torment 2, if it will be turn based or RTwP is less important than everything else. But they promised to make combat more interesting and they think they can do this better with turn based and we should respect this.

Edited September 10, 2014 by archangel979

[Cantousent]

As an aside, I've enjoyed what I played of the WL2 beta, and it's turn based.  It's so close to release, I stopped playing it, but I'm happy with the combat.  Much more polished than PoE's combat, but it's been in production longer.  I'm perfectly happy that ToN will be TB.  ...But I don't think there's a chance in hell of PoE suddenly becoming TB.  They're more likely to suddenly change the XP system, and I don't even think there's a chance of that.  I certainly hope not.

[archangel979]

Khm, Torment 2 will be using PoE engine and it will be turn based

[prodigydancer]

RTwP is not the most important characteristic of PST, not even its 10th.

PS:T is my absolute favoring game (not just CRPG) of all times. And I believe that combat system was as important as everything else. And it's very unfortunate that inXile made the wrong choice on the matter. But It's within their right to ruin their games as they see fit.

 

Personally I won't touch TToN with a ten-foot pole but I'm just one guy so who cares, right?

[Elerond]

Khm, Torment 2 will be using PoE engine and it will be turn based

 

PoE uses universal game engine called Unity, as does Torment Tides of Numenera, but TToN also will use tools and modifications/addons that Obsidian has done to engine, like how they use 2D planes and dynamic lightning/dynamic water/path-finding/etc. solutions that they have gone up during development of PoE. But inXile creates their own rule system for the game as they adapt Numenera's rule system and they already have turn-based system for their Wasteland 2 (which also uses Unity), where they probably will borrow code for TToN's combat system.

[Gromnir]

You misunderstand. This last conversation was about Inxile making Torment 2 turn based and some of use protesting that RTwP is not the most important characteristic of PST, not even its 10th. I could not care less if PST was turn based or RTwP, everything else about it was more important. Same for Torment 2, if it will be turn based or RTwP is less important than everything else. But they promised to make combat more interesting and they think they can do this better with turn based and we should respect this.

admitted, we did not read the whole thread. were our mistake to think that the topic were relevant to PoE.

 

...

 

wait a sec...

 

well, ignore our post as it not seem to be relevant to what inexile is doing with torment.

 

HA! Good Fun!