Drama in indy gaming and games journalism part 2

[BruceVC]

I guess the fish does die by the mouth after all

 

http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/09/gamergate-polytron-fbi-investigation/

The chance of this being true is highly unlikely

[Longknife]

I guess the fish does die by the mouth after all

 

http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/09/gamergate-polytron-fbi-investigation/

 

 

I hope he was actually guilty. Not out of spite for Phil Fish (didn't know the guy nor do I know jack about FEZ) but because this would be -THE- case of corruption in gaming journalism that no one can deny. Doritos Pope can just swallow the Dew and stuff the Doritos in his mouth and say "what corruption," but if there's a story with the FBI involved where it's basically proven there's corruption? Yeah, not only will this end this GamerGate crap (I'm of the opinion we're going in circles at this point and now is the time for less talk, more action and results) but it'll definitely send a message of "no more corruption in gaming or else."

[Orogun01]

 

I guess the fish does die by the mouth after all

 

http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/09/gamergate-polytron-fbi-investigation/

The chance of this being true is highly unlikely

 

I know, will wait until sources are confirmed but I feel that the discussion is getting a bit personal. I thought I would steer away from it.

[HoonDing]

I guess the fish does die by the mouth after all

 

http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/09/gamergate-polytron-fbi-investigation/

Edited September 9, 2014 by HoonDing

[Malcador]

I guess the fish does die by the mouth after all

 

http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/09/gamergate-polytron-fbi-investigation/

Would be nice to have some sources. Though I'd have a good laugh if it were true.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Malcador

[Amentep]

 

@BruceVC

If you are shocked by the viciousness of SJW you should read some of the comments directed towards feminists and there supporters.

 

Admittedly I haven't looked at how things went down in places like reddit or 4chan, but in the confines of what I have seen, my perception matches that of TrueNeutral:

 

I have seen more anti-#GamerGate people be abusive than I have ever seen gamers be abusive in my entire life

 

For the record, I don't consider abuse acceptable on either side of this (or any) conflict.

 

 

@BruceVC

But the main thing for me that I have found completely exasperating about this debate has been the constant and deliberate attempts by people to intentionally misunderstand the intentions of gaming journalists and many  people who support Zoe Quinn. And it really comes down to the word " gamer". As I've tried to explain the word doesn't apply to all gamers, but it does apply to those gamers who refuse to accept change in the industry. And this applies to those white, ,male gamers who don't believe in inclusivity. But once again this doesn't mean all white, male gamers.

But don't you see a problem with taking a descriptive term that an entire subculture made up of a diverse set of people have chosen to positively self-identify with, and trying to overload it with a narrow and negative meaning for rhetorical purposes?

 

Even when sincere (rather than just an excuse for demeaning the whole group), I would call that "negligent lack of clarity" at best, and "intolerant dismissal of other people's identity" at worst.

 

Imagine if someone started a campaign of rudely lashing out against "LGBT people". Or "members of hip-hop culture". Or "Muslims". And when confronted with backlash, said "What's your problem? I consider that label to only refer to bad people!" ...Would you respond with "Oh, okay, carry on then"?

I wouldn't...

 

No I don't really see any problem with what I am saying and trying to explain. But you have given me a way to make an excellent analogy to reinforce my point.

 

Personally I have an issue with Muslim extremists, like ISIS and Boko Haram, but not with Muslims. But within the Muslim community there are some people who think  criticism directed at extremism is the same as criticism towards  the whole Muslim community. But its not and that's not what I am saying. Its not my fault that people can't distinguish between the two.

 

The word "gamer" doesn't mean all gamers, but if people keep wanting to believe that they are creating unnecessary vexation for themselves

 

 

The "Gamer" equivilent to "personally I have an issue with Muslim extremists but not with Muslims" would be "personally I have an issue with Gamer extremists but not with Gamers" not "The word "gamer" doesn't mean all gamers but those gamers who are misogynist, etc.".

 

That would be equivalent to saying "The word "Muslim" doesn't mean all Muslims but those Muslims who are extremists like ISIS, Boko Haram, etc."

 

Do you now see how ridiculous that statement is?

 

The word "TV" doesn't mean all TVs, only 12" Cathode ray tubes.

The word "Car" doesn't mean all cars, only Fords

The word "music" doesn't mean all music, only Elvis tunes

The word "Sports Fan" doesn't mean all sports fans, only fans of the Chicago Cubs

The word "German" doesn't mean all Germans, only the Germans who wear lederhosen

Edited September 9, 2014 by Amentep

[BruceVC]

 

 

@BruceVC

If you are shocked by the viciousness of SJW you should read some of the comments directed towards feminists and there supporters.

 

Admittedly I haven't looked at how things went down in places like reddit or 4chan, but in the confines of what I have seen, my perception matches that of TrueNeutral:

 

I have seen more anti-#GamerGate people be abusive than I have ever seen gamers be abusive in my entire life

 

For the record, I don't consider abuse acceptable on either side of this (or any) conflict.

 

 

@BruceVC

But the main thing for me that I have found completely exasperating about this debate has been the constant and deliberate attempts by people to intentionally misunderstand the intentions of gaming journalists and many  people who support Zoe Quinn. And it really comes down to the word " gamer". As I've tried to explain the word doesn't apply to all gamers, but it does apply to those gamers who refuse to accept change in the industry. And this applies to those white, ,male gamers who don't believe in inclusivity. But once again this doesn't mean all white, male gamers.

But don't you see a problem with taking a descriptive term that an entire subculture made up of a diverse set of people have chosen to positively self-identify with, and trying to overload it with a narrow and negative meaning for rhetorical purposes?

 

Even when sincere (rather than just an excuse for demeaning the whole group), I would call that "negligent lack of clarity" at best, and "intolerant dismissal of other people's identity" at worst.

 

Imagine if someone started a campaign of rudely lashing out against "LGBT people". Or "members of hip-hop culture". Or "Muslims". And when confronted with backlash, said "What's your problem? I consider that label to only refer to bad people!" ...Would you respond with "Oh, okay, carry on then"?

I wouldn't...

 

No I don't really see any problem with what I am saying and trying to explain. But you have given me a way to make an excellent analogy to reinforce my point.

 

Personally I have an issue with Muslim extremists, like ISIS and Boko Haram, but not with Muslims. But within the Muslim community there are some people who think  criticism directed at extremism is the same as criticism towards  the whole Muslim community. But its not and that's not what I am saying. Its not my fault that people can't distinguish between the two.

 

The word "gamer" doesn't mean all gamers, but if people keep wanting to believe that they are creating unnecessary vexation for themselves

 

 

The "Gamer" equivilent to "personally I have an issue with Muslim extremists but not with Muslims" would be "personally I have an issue with Gamer extremists but not with Gamers" not "The word "gamer" doesn't mean all gamers but those gamers who are misogynist, etc.".

 

That would be equivalent to saying "The word "Muslim" doesn't mean all Muslims but those Muslims who are extremists like ISIS, Boko Haram, etc."

 

Do you now see how ridiculous that statement is?

 

The word "TV" doesn't mean all TVs, only 12" Cathode ray tubes.

The word "Car" doesn't mean all cars, only Fords

The word "music" doesn't mean all music, only Elvis tunes

The word "Sports Fan" doesn't mean all sports fans, only fans of the Chicago Cubs

The word "German" doesn't mean all Germans, only the Germans who wear lederhosen

 

 

Yeah I conceded a while ago that Muslim extremist  was a bad example

[Malcador]

Not the example that is the problem, though.

[Shallow]

 

 

 

Yeah I conceded a while ago that Muslim extremist  was a bad example

 

But it isn't, it's just your logic is highly flawed, and the Muslim example made that even clearer, if you'd never made that example all the other comparisons Amentep made would still hold just as true.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Shallow

[Blarghagh]

Personally I have an issue with Muslim extremists, like ISIS and Boko Haram, but not with Muslims. But within the Muslim community there are some people who think  criticism directed at extremism is the same as criticism towards  the whole Muslim community. But its not and that's not what I am saying. Its not my fault that people can't distinguish between the two.

 

The word "gamer" doesn't mean all gamers, but if people keep wanting to believe that they are creating unnecessary vexation for themselves

 

 

Actually, Muslim is very easy to distinguish from Muslim Extremist. Gamer is not easy to distinguish from Gamer. Then I'd also like to reiterate that plenty of messages I have seen on, for example, twitter, that literally state that they mean all gamers. Here's one that I read just off the top of my head: "If you self identify as a gamer you are a pathetic human being." They don't mean white misogynists, they mean EVERY gaming enthousiast that exists. You can speak for them all you want, it doesn't change the fact that some of the people you are defending don't agree with it themselves. Essentially and ironically, they are #NotYourShield. Speaking of which, I'd ask you to look into that before saying journalists and those on their side are the ones being pro-inclusive when gamers have only been supportive of inclusivity.

 

Then again, I recall in the last thread you qualified it by saying "show me one that isn't some radfem abuser" because they didn't count (by the way, I did and you ignored it), yet you seem to object and dismiss when Longknife asks you to do the same thing. While I don't agree with Malcador and Orogun simply dismissing you and resorting to ad hominem as I know they are better than that, I can certainly say you can't complain as your more polite dismissals are still dismissals all the same and you too are better than that.

[Amentep]

Yeah I conceded a while ago that Muslim extremist  was a bad example

 

But you won't concede that saying "gamers" only refers to a subset of gamers and not all gamers is just as wrong headed?  That was the entire point of my post.  You can't specify a specific subgroup and claim they are the group but then when challenged say "well obviously when I refer to the group, I only mean the subgroup".

 

Under that logic it'd be correct to say "All humans have went to the moon, and by human I clearly mean the subset of humans that are astronauts who've been to the moon".

[Volourn]

"The word "gamer" doesn't mean all gamers,"

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

How can anyone write that then read it then claim with a straight face that it makes mroe sense for gamer to mean 'hateful white guy' instead of simply what the word clearly means: gamer = someone who plays games.

 

LMAO

 

This is why know without a doubt that Bruce's 'nice' exeterior is a front to a very hateful bigot who  is sexist and racist and has been brainwashed into actually believe the white males are the devils and if women had power there wouldn't be any wars at all.

 

\This also comes from a guy who  has no problem oogling women while chastizing others for doing it.

 

Gamer = someone who games.

 

No matter how much toolbags try to twsit it and ruin the terminology.. it will always be

 

gamer = someone who games.

 

PERIOD.

[Orogun01]

Actually, Muslim is very easy to distinguish from Muslim Extremist. Gamer is not easy to distinguish from Gamer. Then I'd also like to reiterate that plenty of messages I have seen on, for example, twitter, that literally state that they mean all gamers. Here's one that I read just off the top of my head: "If you self identify as a gamer you are a pathetic human being." They don't mean white misogynists, they mean EVERY gaming enthousiast that exists. You can speak for them all you want, it doesn't change the fact that some of the people you are defending don't agree with it themselves. Essentially and ironically, they are #NotYourShield. Speaking of which, I'd ask you to look into that before saying journalists and those on their side are the ones being pro-inclusive when gamers have only been supportive of inclusivity.

 

Then again, I recall in the last thread you qualified it by saying "show me one that isn't some radfem abuser" because they didn't count (by the way, I did and you ignored it), yet you seem to object and dismiss when Longknife asks you to do the same thing. While I don't agree with Malcador and Orogun simply dismissing you and resorting to ad hominem as I know they are better than that, I can certainly say you can't complain as your more polite dismissals are still dismissals all the same and you too are better than that.

I'm only dismissing the argument because I think that it has gotten a bit too personal and is losing view of the subject matter, you people are arguing analogies. Also I fear Bruce has been on the defensive a bit too much lately I don't think I need to be adding to the argument specially since there isn't much in the way of facts that I could present at the moment. 

[Longknife]

I'm only dismissing the argument because I think that it has gotten a bit too personal and is losing view of the subject matter, you people are arguing analogies. Also I fear Bruce has been on the defensive a bit too much lately I don't think I need to be adding to the argument specially since there isn't much in the way of facts that I could present at the moment. 

 

 

 

F*** that, I'm aggressive.   I blame law school.

 

One of the first things that's taught is...if you've got an argument your opponent can't counter? Do NOT let the subject change. You bring it up and bring it up and bring it up until your opponent has to admit they're wrong on that count. You'll be called an ass, you'll make enemies, but the system is flawless. If you're right on a point, your opponent should admit it because ultimately debate SHOULD be about weeding out the wrongs and locating the rights.

 

 

 

I'm personally gonna sit here and repeat the question until I get a working answer: Name one prominent figure within the gaming industry who exhibits signs of misogyny and an agenda against more female protagonists.

 

There literally isn't one, and this more than anything highlights that this entire SJW "cause" is tantamount to propaganda, spawned from nothing more than the most basic of stupid comments spouted either by immature 15 year olds or trolls literally TRYING to say stupid things to get reactions. Hell, infact, given what we've learned about Silverstring media, it would seem there are more prominent feminists involved with the gaming industry (an entire team of them) as opposed to the grand total of 0 misogynist journalists, developers, notable vlog figures and gamers (this includes even people like PewDiePie as you can argue such people hold "influence" of some degree to games). It's good it's at 0, but it's NOT so good we've got people screaming "MISOGYNY" when it's absolutely not there on any meaningful level (random youtube commenters are not meaningful), we know some of the Silverstring people are capable of misleading and victim-complex info (see Anita and New Vegas) and ultimately it's just utter nonsense that detracts from the REAL focus: corruption in the game industry.

 

FFS people aren't even suggesting "boycott silverstring media," they're suggesting boycott EVERYTHING in gaming journalism because it's literally all sub-par anyways and gamers losing our gaming journalists would be about on par to spending a night playing your favorite game, but you forgot to buy a drink to keep on your desk while you play in case you get thirsty. I THINK WE GONNA BE OK. We're not even explicitly targeting the feminists, we're openly stating "this would also be a good opportunity to pay back Doritos Pope and boycott anything he's connected to aswell."

 

It's absolutely crystal clear this has nothing to do with misogyny. You want a misogynist so you SJW's don't end up at the unemployment office? I can happily link you all to some Tommy Sotomayor guy on youtube who does nothing but rant about black women because apparently he knocked one up and has to pay child support for it and he's a rather bitter human being. I'm almost tempted to link that incredibly off-topic video just to show what real misogyny (combined with racism) looks like.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Me personally? I'm just gonna repeat that request over and over and over.  Name one prominent figure within the gaming industry who exhibits signs of misogyny and an agenda against more female protagonists. I see no reason to continue any debate until that's addressed.

[Namutree]

I've calling myself a "gamer" for years. I've been inclusive as hell to everyone I've ever known. These "journalists" are despicable, and worthy of nothing more than contempt.

[Orogun01]

 

I'm only dismissing the argument because I think that it has gotten a bit too personal and is losing view of the subject matter, you people are arguing analogies. Also I fear Bruce has been on the defensive a bit too much lately I don't think I need to be adding to the argument specially since there isn't much in the way of facts that I could present at the moment. 

 

 

 

F*** that, I'm aggressive.   I blame law school.

 

One of the first things that's taught is...if you've got an argument your opponent can't counter? Do NOT let the subject change. You bring it up and bring it up and bring it up until your opponent has to admit they're wrong on that count. You'll be called an ass, you'll make enemies, but the system is flawless. If you're right on a point, your opponent should admit it because ultimately debate SHOULD be about weeding out the wrongs and locating the rights.

 

 

 

I'm personally gonna sit here and repeat the question until I get a working answer: Name one prominent figure within the gaming industry who exhibits signs of misogyny and an agenda against more female protagonists.

 

There literally isn't one, and this more than anything highlights that this entire SJW "cause" is tantamount to propaganda, spawned from nothing more than the most basic of stupid comments spouted either by immature 15 year olds or trolls literally TRYING to say stupid things to get reactions. Hell, infact, given what we've learned about Silverstring media, it would seem there are more prominent feminists involved with the gaming industry (an entire team of them) as opposed to the grand total of 0 misogynist journalists, developers, notable vlog figures and gamers (this includes even people like PewDiePie as you can argue such people hold "influence" of some degree to games). It's good it's at 0, but it's NOT so good we've got people screaming "MISOGYNY" when it's absolutely not there on any meaningful level (random youtube commenters are not meaningful), we know some of the Silverstring people are capable of misleading and victim-complex info (see Anita and New Vegas) and ultimately it's just utter nonsense that detracts from the REAL focus: corruption in the game industry.

 

FFS people aren't even suggesting "boycott silverstring media," they're suggesting boycott EVERYTHING in gaming journalism because it's literally all sub-par anyways and gamers losing our gaming journalists would be about on par to spending a night playing your favorite game, but you forgot to buy a drink to keep on your desk while you play in case you get thirsty. I THINK WE GONNA BE OK. We're not even explicitly targeting the feminists, we're openly stating "this would also be a good opportunity to pay back Doritos Pope and boycott anything he's connected to aswell."

 

It's absolutely crystal clear this has nothing to do with misogyny. You want a misogynist so you SJW's don't end up at the unemployment office? I can happily link you all to some Tommy Sotomayor guy on youtube who does nothing but rant about black women because apparently he knocked one up and has to pay child support for it and he's a rather bitter human being. I'm almost tempted to link that incredibly off-topic video just to show what real misogyny (combined with racism) looks like.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Me personally? I'm just gonna repeat that request over and over and over.  Name one prominent figure within the gaming industry who exhibits signs of misogyny and an agenda against more female protagonists. I see no reason to continue any debate until that's addressed.

 

That's a tactic that really doesn't work when the other party doesn't have the information, I doubt that you're going to get much proof from someone that isn't connected to the whole debacle. At best you can grief them until they quit but that isn't really a victory, unless self satisfaction is your only goal which would really make you no better than the other people that engage in harassment. That's something that both sides seem to agree on, the level of vitriol being spat is high and people should restrain themselves.

 

The reason Bruce can't provide with proof doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist, but that major AAA companies have covered themselves against it. NDA are common on the industry and so is blacklisting, the reason why a dispute over sexual harassment might have not become know to everyone is likely due to the cost involved to the party involved who would essentially be committing career suicide or because it was resolved internally. That doesn't mean that the anecdotal of people that have spoken within the industry against sexist practices is untrue. Is just that there isn't conclusive proof but that's something that is common on cases like this.

 

The fact is that one of the reason why we need better journalism is because things like that, AAA companies have had too much influence on game journalism and things never get past hearsay. People shouldn't be forbidden to talk about their place of work or to air complaints if the company isn't doing anything about it, but there is no interest and no support from the media and the public that hears about this don't know what to do or don't care. Although, the quality of journalism in general has declined and good stories are not being covered for the sake of revenue it is still part of the issue.

[Namutree]

I can happily link you all to some Tommy Sotomayor guy on youtube who does nothing but rant about black women because apparently he knocked one up and has to pay child support for it and he's a rather bitter human being. I'm almost tempted to link that incredibly off-topic video just to show what real misogyny (combined with racism) looks like.

 

 

Don't you know Longknife? Only white people's misogyny or racism actually counts. Because as those "journalists" have said; gamer refers to white misogynists. Asians? Not gamers. Sorry Japanese people; you aren't gamers, because gamers are white. 

[Orogun01]

Recent developments, Jennifer Hale will be talking about GamerGate. (Though she might end up on the side of SJW)

 

In the meanwhile

http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists

[Namutree]

Recent developments, Jennifer Hale will be talking about GamerGate. (Though she might end up on the side of SJW)

 

In the meanwhile

http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists

Interesting interview.

 

EDIT: I would like to see more women designers and characters in video games. TFYC are helping in the most noble way possible, instead of complaining about the industry; they are doing something about it.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Namutree

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to be dead or dying. Gaming journalism is too shoddy to be clear in its own muckraking attempts.

[BruceVC]

Guys I'm not going to go back and respond to all comments, but I'll just say I'm not convinced that my view is incorrext  In summary I'll make some general response

 

• The word gamer does not mean all gamers in this context. @ TN you posted this link https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/death-to-the-gamer/.  Wow you talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel to find a link that supports your perspective. No that article is annoying and doesn't reflect what gaming journalists are saying, I mentioned websites like the Escapist and RPS that have gone to great lengths to explain what they mean by gamers which you guys have conveniently ignored as it doesn't suit your interpretation of the narrative. Read this link if you want to understand what gaming journalists mean and tell me where in this link its says "all white male gamers are misogynistic scum " https://archive.today/CeWxy
• @ Longknife. your entire argument that says "find me proof of one prominent figure who is misogynistic" is just completely illogical. No prominent person is going to say publically "I don't want women or gay people in my games" Obviously not, the person will get lambasted and fired as a bigot . But that doesn't mean its not what people think and feel. Sexism is something that you see around what  people don't say or  how they try to present justification for a lack of gender representation. Read this link about a KS game called Kingdom Come to see what I mean, http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65005-kingdom-come-deliverance-kickstarter/  Now I am not saying everyone on this thread who said " its unrealistic to have women representation in this game is misogynistic " but you can clearly see the systemic  resistance to gender equality in this game. And this is just this game, I can post many more links that raises this type of perspective

In summary the link I posted https://archive.today/CeWxy summarizes what gaming journalists are really saying, I encourage people to stop thinking there is this campaign that attacks all white, male gamers because its just not true 

[kirottu]

Recent developments, Jennifer Hale will be talking about GamerGate. (Though she might end up on the side of SJW)

 

In the meanwhile

http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists

 

A fine interview indeed. 

[BruceVC]

Recent developments, Jennifer Hale will be talking about GamerGate. (Though she might end up on the side of SJW)

 

In the meanwhile

http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists

 

That is a good read and is discusses many issues in an objective and reasonable way

 

One thing that concerns me is the apparent influence that Zoe Quinn seems to have, its almost like if she doesn't approve of a particular gender equality project then its got no chance of succeeding. I have an issue with that as she shouldn't be the judge, jury and executioner of what constitutes acceptable initiatives around gender equality.

[Namutree]

 

• The word gamer does not mean all gamers in this context. 

Feminists are fat, lazy, hate men, and are lesbians. Oh, but don't worry. When I say "feminists" I am referring to a certain types of feminists, not the majority who don't fit into my narrative.

 

Can you understand why I take offense BruceVC?

[Orogun01]

 

Recent developments, Jennifer Hale will be talking about GamerGate. (Though she might end up on the side of SJW)

 

In the meanwhile

http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists

 

That is a good read and is discusses many issues in an objective and reasonable way

 

One thing that concerns me is the apparent influence that Zoe Quinn seems to have, its almost like if she doesn't approve of a particular gender equality project then its got no chance of succeeding. I have an issue with that as she shouldn't be the judge, jury and executioner of what constitutes acceptable initiatives around gender equality.

 

Is not so much Zoe as the Silverstring media and the Digras and we should really come up with a term for all the groups that have created networks of influence to promote their ideologies. The way it functions; IMO, is a lot like 4chan and other internet communities where someone bring the information and the collective decides. These people are united by their ideology and by the means by which they try to promote it. So it bears to reason that merely introducing the information was enough, after all there's a lot of info backing up the fact that they didn't bother to check before acting against TFYC.

 

Also, on response to one of your previous posts:

"In summary the link I posted https://archive.today/CeWxy summarizes what gaming journalists are really saying, I encourage people to stop thinking there is this campaign that attacks all white, male gamers because its just not true ".

 

Its a bit disingenuous to believe that the calculated article they have posted is what they are thinking when you can go to the tweets accounts of many of these journalists and see what they are saying. It seems that they do have something against white male gamers and anyone who stands with them.