Drama in indy gaming and games journalism part 2

[Tale]

Old thread.

 

Am I right in that the discussion has turned into "what is a gamer?" Well alrighty then.

 

I always fancied the idea that a "gamer" was anyone who engaged with the gaming subculture. They visit forums or chat about games with other people. But I was never married to it. And I think I'm missing the context everyone's involved in there.

[Amentep]

To me, a gamer should be anyone who counts gaming as a hobby.  That would be video games, miniature games, card games, board games, pen and paper role playing games.

 

I'd argue "counts gaming as a hobby" as someone who spends a non-negligible amount of their free time dedicated to playing their game(s).  I don't think you should be required to ever be on a forum or chat about games.  Its a hobby that (IMO) is defined by what you do, not what club you belong to.

 

So the idea of taking the word and applying it as a negative label to certain groups of people is quite distasteful, again IMO.

[Keyrock]

What the journos meant when they engaged in their scathing takedown of "gamers" almost doesn't matter at this point.  The damage has been done and the rift is there.  Whether it's completely accurate or not, the perception is that game journalists attacked their own target audience, which is akin to setting fire to your own house then yelling "There, that'll teach 'em!"

[HoonDing]

Part 2, seriously?

 

[Blarghagh]

I just found out that well known equity feminist Christina Sommers is getting harassed for speaking positively about gamers. That's ridiculous.

[Gfted1]

Whos harassing her? The SJW's?

[Malcador]

Twitter needs to die.

[Blarghagh]

Whos harassing her? The SJW's?

 

Yep. It's actually not out of character for them to attack Christina, however, as she is most known for writing the book "Who Stole Feminism" condemning female chauvinism and promoting real gender equality. I highly recommend it.

[namelesshero]

  feminist Christina Sommers 

lol

[Ineth]

@BruceVC

If you are shocked by the viciousness of SJW you should read some of the comments directed towards feminists and there supporters.

 

Admittedly I haven't looked at how things went down in places like reddit or 4chan, but in the confines of what I have seen, my perception matches that of TrueNeutral:

 

I have seen more anti-#GamerGate people be abusive than I have ever seen gamers be abusive in my entire life

 

For the record, I don't consider abuse acceptable on either side of this (or any) conflict.

 

 

@BruceVC

But the main thing for me that I have found completely exasperating about this debate has been the constant and deliberate attempts by people to intentionally misunderstand the intentions of gaming journalists and many  people who support Zoe Quinn. And it really comes down to the word " gamer". As I've tried to explain the word doesn't apply to all gamers, but it does apply to those gamers who refuse to accept change in the industry. And this applies to those white, ,male gamers who don't believe in inclusivity. But once again this doesn't mean all white, male gamers.

But don't you see a problem with taking a descriptive term that an entire subculture made up of a diverse set of people have chosen to positively self-identify with, and trying to overload it with a narrow and negative meaning for rhetorical purposes?

Even when sincere (rather than just an excuse for demeaning the whole group), I would call that "negligent lack of clarity" at best, and "intolerant dismissal of other people's identity" at worst.

Imagine if someone started a campaign of rudely lashing out against "LGBT people". Or "members of hip-hop culture". Or "Muslims". And when confronted with backlash, said "What's your problem? I consider that label to only refer to bad people!" ...Would you respond with "Oh, okay, carry on then"?
I wouldn't...

Edited September 9, 2014 by Ineth

[BruceVC]

@BruceVC

If you are shocked by the viciousness of SJW you should read some of the comments directed towards feminists and there supporters.

 

Admittedly I haven't looked at how things went down in places like reddit or 4chan, but in the confines of what I have seen, my perception matches that of TrueNeutral:

 

I have seen more anti-#GamerGate people be abusive than I have ever seen gamers be abusive in my entire life

 

For the record, I don't consider abuse acceptable on either side of this (or any) conflict.

 

 

@BruceVC

But the main thing for me that I have found completely exasperating about this debate has been the constant and deliberate attempts by people to intentionally misunderstand the intentions of gaming journalists and many  people who support Zoe Quinn. And it really comes down to the word " gamer". As I've tried to explain the word doesn't apply to all gamers, but it does apply to those gamers who refuse to accept change in the industry. And this applies to those white, ,male gamers who don't believe in inclusivity. But once again this doesn't mean all white, male gamers.

But don't you see a problem with taking a descriptive term that an entire subculture made up of a diverse set of people have chosen to positively self-identify with, and trying to overload it with a narrow and negative meaning for rhetorical purposes?

 

Even when sincere (rather than just an excuse for demeaning the whole group), I would call that "negligent lack of clarity" at best, and "intolerant dismissal of other people's identity" at worst.

 

Imagine if someone started a campaign of rudely lashing out against "LGBT people". Or "members of hip-hop culture". Or "Muslims". And when confronted with backlash, said "What's your problem? I consider that label to only refer to bad people!" ...Would you respond with "Oh, okay, carry on then"?

I wouldn't...

 

No I don't really see any problem with what I am saying and trying to explain. But you have given me a way to make an excellent analogy to reinforce my point.

 

Personally I have an issue with Muslim extremists, like ISIS and Boko Haram, but not with Muslims. But within the Muslim community there are some people who think  criticism directed at extremism is the same as criticism towards  the whole Muslim community. But its not and that's not what I am saying. Its not my fault that people can't distinguish between the two.

 

The word "gamer" doesn't mean all gamers, but if people keep wanting to believe that they are creating unnecessary vexation for themselves

[Longknife]

The word "gamer " refers to white males who refuse to recognise inclusivity and changes to the gaming industry. The words "the gamer is dead" applies to people who don't want to be part of the change in the industry.

 

Ready for this? I'm about to blow your mind....

 

 

 

Name one "gamer" that matches that definition.

 

 

That's exactly the issue. You can't. Because no one has any misogynistic issues. The perceived misogynistic issues are being manufactured by pointing at nameless or nobody trolls in random comments, the very same trolls who would purposefully say ANYTHING purely to antagonize and not because they mean it. I sincerely doubt you can name a significant figure within the entirety of the video game industry who is openly misogynistic.

 

DAT BLOW UR MIND??

 

Edited September 9, 2014 by Longknife

[Malcador]

Bruce is just trolling at this point.

[Ineth]

No I don't really see any problem with what I am saying and trying to explain. But you have given me a way to make an excellent analogy to reinforce my point.

 

Personally I have an issue with Muslim extremists, like ISIS and Boko Haram, but not with Muslims. But within the Muslim community there are some people who think  criticism directed at extremism is the same as criticism towards  the whole Muslim community. But its not and that's not what I am saying. Its not my fault that people can't distinguish between the two.

 

Well if you were to use the isolated word "Muslim" as a stand-in for the violent extremists when wording your criticism, then the resulting misunderstanding would be your fault and peaceful Muslims would have every right to be upset with you.

 

Same when journalists use the isolated word "gamer" as a stand-in for the minority of gamers who do harm.

[BruceVC]

Bruce is just trolling at this point.

 

Typical response when you don't agree with someone... "lets play the old troll card" instead of engaging in debate

[Malcador]

Well it has to be it, when presented with "The word "gamer" doesn't mean all gamers" at this point in the discussion. You and your lot can interpret it all you like, but that's a reference to all. Write out what you meant to say and avoid ambiguity.

 

"Muslim extremists are a problem.." reads a lot different than "Muslims are a problem..", after all.

[BruceVC]

 

The word "gamer " refers to white males who refuse to recognise inclusivity and changes to the gaming industry. The words "the gamer is dead" applies to people who don't want to be part of the change in the industry.

 

Ready for this? I'm about to blow your mind....

 

 

 

Name one "gamer" that matches that definition.

 

 

That's exactly the issue. You can't. Because no one has any misogynistic issues. The perceived misogynistic issues are being manufactured by pointing at nameless or nobody trolls in random comments, the very same trolls who would purposefully say ANYTHING purely to antagonize and not because they mean it. I sincerely doubt you can name a significant figure within the entirety of the video game industry who is openly misogynistic.

 

DAT BLOW UR MIND??

 

 

 

That's not true I'm afraid, there are plenty of people who don't think anything has to change around inclusivity in the gaming industry. I have encountered this type of resistance on these very forums

 

If you don't believe start a Poll on this forums with a title similar to " do we need more female representation in gaming " and see what the responses are. I guarantee you will get numerous responses that say " no ", no need to change anything.

 

And of course the reason for some people  saying  no is not necessarily due to misogynistic reasons but in some cases it will be because of that, people just don't  like to openly acknowledge it

[BruceVC]

Well it has to be it, when presented with "The word "gamer" doesn't mean all gamers" at this point in the discussion. You and your lot can interpret it all you like, but that's a reference to all. Write out what you meant to say and avoid ambiguity.

 

"Muslim extremists are a problem.." reads a lot different than "Muslims are a problem..", after all.

That may be a bad example, I can concede that. But to suggest I'm trolling after all the time and effort I have put into this thread is just annoying

[Orogun01]

 

Bruce is just trolling at this point.

 

Typical response when you don't agree with someone... "lets play the old troll card" instead of engaging in debate

 

Bruce, I don't know if you've noticed but you're engaged in a debate with 3 people right now. I know that being our only SJW during this time of crisis must mean that you're wearing yourself short but I'm concerned that you won't be able to fulfill your SJW duties to the best of your ability. Maybe look for some help?

[BruceVC]

 

 

Bruce is just trolling at this point.

 

Typical response when you don't agree with someone... "lets play the old troll card" instead of engaging in debate

 

Bruce, I don't know if you've noticed but you're engaged in a debate with 3 people right now. I know that being our only SJW during this time of crisis must mean that you're wearing yourself short but I'm concerned that you won't be able to fulfill your SJW duties to the best of your ability. Maybe look for some help?

 

 

Yeah at times its a lonely road  a person walks who believes in SJ issues

 

And people think we do it because its popular and cool. Not all, we do it for the principle

[Longknife]

 

 

The word "gamer " refers to white males who refuse to recognise inclusivity and changes to the gaming industry. The words "the gamer is dead" applies to people who don't want to be part of the change in the industry.

 

Ready for this? I'm about to blow your mind....

 

 

 

Name one "gamer" that matches that definition.

 

 

That's exactly the issue. You can't. Because no one has any misogynistic issues. The perceived misogynistic issues are being manufactured by pointing at nameless or nobody trolls in random comments, the very same trolls who would purposefully say ANYTHING purely to antagonize and not because they mean it. I sincerely doubt you can name a significant figure within the entirety of the video game industry who is openly misogynistic.

 

DAT BLOW UR MIND??

 

 

 

That's not true I'm afraid, there are plenty of people who don't think anything has to change around inclusivity in the gaming industry. I have encountered this type of resistance on these very forums

 

If you don't believe start a Poll on this forums with a title similar to " do we need more female representation in gaming " and see what the responses are. I guarantee you will get numerous responses that say " no ", no need to change anything.

 

And of course the reason for some people  saying  no is not necessarily due to misogynistic reasons but in some cases it will be because of that, people just don't  like to openly acknowledge it

 

 

 

So your answer is that you CANNOT actually name someone in the gaming industry that strictly opposes stronger female representation in gaming? That's what I thought.

 

 

That's why people are f***ing sick of this crap. Because all it is is a group of feminists lecturing our community based on these mysterious misogynists we keep hearing so much about, and then when we say "who," the answer is always that they point to some 15 year old who's never been on a date or to Youtuber user "IFartPickles" and how he commented and said "women r gay, go make sammich pls."

 

 

And actually, I bet if I made a poll, the most common answer would be "I don't give a ****." Most of us don't sit there with a f***ing checklist, grading the game based on it's representation of strong female characters. No, believe it or not, most of us play games to...yknow, have fun. I like Fallout New Vegas not because of it's equal representation and fair presentation of women, but because of it's amazing gameplay and storyline. That it gets praised by Mormons, LGBT and feminists alike (except Anita, who as we've gone over, is an opportunist and a liar and is a detriment to the movement as such) isn't really of supreme importance to me; I'm playing to have fun and to hear an intriguin and thought-provoking storyline, not to push some social agenda. Do I MIND that it gets that praise? God no, that's awesome. By all means game developers, please use New Vegas as an example of how to do minority groups correctly. At the same time though, I don't want developers CONSTANTLY double-checking their storylines for equality. It's art dude. Just express yourself as you like, and if you see a window to include a character from a minority group for the sake of equality without being a detriment to the story, then do so if you'd like.

 

 

NOBODY gives a ****. If I play Dark Souls, I don't go "ONLY ONE OF THE FOUR GREAT LORDS IS A FEMALE? SEXIST, 0/10 WOULD THROW IN A BLENDER," because wtf it's a beautiful game, tons of fun and the storyline (as hard to pick up on as it can be) is actually incredibly intriguing and well designed. I don't give a **** about the quota because I wanna hear it out; it's got an interesting artistic message I wanna hear, and a 3:1 male:female quota doesn't take away from that. IT'S IRRELEVANT.

  And if I had the power? I'd mute the posting ability of every journalism website, blogger and SJW voicing an opinion on the matter until they could name a SINGLE prominent gaming figure who's clearly misogynist and against more female representation in gaming.

 

 

If you wanna push a feminist agenda? Go make your own art with stronger female representation. By all means, go make video games about women (but don't be on the panel that judges how good they are...). Go be a social worker. But kindly get the f*** off my couch and stop screaming at me because I want to relax and play a game without being anal retentive about the female character quota in the game I'm playing being sub-optimal.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Longknife

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

Bruce is just trolling at this point.

 

Typical response when you don't agree with someone... "lets play the old troll card" instead of engaging in debate

 

Bruce, I don't know if you've noticed but you're engaged in a debate with 3 people right now. I know that being our only SJW during this time of crisis must mean that you're wearing yourself short but I'm concerned that you won't be able to fulfill your SJW duties to the best of your ability. Maybe look for some help?

 

 

Yeah at times its a lonely road  a person walks who believes in SJ issues

 

And people think we do it because its popular and cool. Not all, we do it for the principle

 

[Orogun01]

I guess the fish does die by the mouth after all

 

http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/09/gamergate-polytron-fbi-investigation/

[Shallow]

 

That's not true I'm afraid, there are plenty of people who don't think anything has to change around inclusivity in the gaming industry. I have encountered this type of resistance on these very forums

 

If you don't believe start a Poll on this forums with a title similar to " do we need more female representation in gaming " and see what the responses are. I guarantee you will get numerous responses that say " no ", no need to change anything.

 

And of course the reason for some people  saying  no is not necessarily due to misogynistic reasons but in some cases it will be because of that, people just don't  like to openly acknowledge it

 

I don't really believe there has to be serious change around inclusitivity, so I'll give you that. However you said: "The word "gamer " refers to white males who refuse to recognise inclusivity and changes to the gaming industry. The words "the gamer is dead" applies to people who don't want to be part of the change in the industry.", implying that a person has to be anti inclusitivity and not just consider the status quo inclusive.

 

I've never played a game that demanded proof of your rl gender and treated you differently based on it, as far as I'm aware, such a game doesn't exist. When differnet demographics grow in the gaming industry, provided they're into other styles of games than most regular games, the niche games they like will get earn more money, and be able to develop into proper big-budget games, when new people enter the industry old people don't necesarily leave, thus there'll only be more money floating around, meaning more games in the sectors the new people want. There doesn't have to be some revolution, there doesn't have to some kind of unified genre and message all games shout whilst holding hands, developers should produce whatever they want, people should buy whatever they want, there is no need for all this bull****.

[Malcador]

That may be a bad example, I can concede that. But to suggest I'm trolling after all the time and effort I have put into this thread is just annoying

Of course.

 

In the end though, suppose it doesn't matter in the face of their disdain. Game 'journalists' are now on the talking point of how hard it is for them and how hurt they are by accusations of being corrupt. One pointed out on Reddit that it'd require a bitter person to see a dev and a 'journalist' hanging out socially and then suspect corruption.