On Healing: a New Idea

[Darth_Gandalf]

Much has been said of the dualistic nature of the health system in this game: health vs stamina, how healing only replenishes stamina and how resting is needed to restore health. This seems a bit counterintuitive to me: magic and medicine can only rejuvenate your energy, but a good nap at an inn heals all wounds? That seems like the reverse of how things should be.

 

Now, rather than proposing a drastic revamp of the whole system, I would like to suggest one new idea. It seems like some people are frustrated at having to rest more frequently to heal their melee characters. Why not simply include healing items that only temporarily restore health? When a character is grievously wounded in combat, why not administer aid with bandages, poultices and healing elixirs (like might happen in a real life situation)? These could temporarily restore health, allowing the player to carry on a little longer without resting. They would have a time limit, and would ultimately expire, forcing you to then rest. There could even be a deleterious effect for using too many bandages or elixirs without taking a good rest.

 

What do you think?

[Sedrefilos]

In the IE games I was literally resting after each combat. Combat ends, rest, move on. Pretty annoying. How much more often do you have to rest in PoE actually? You can't get more often than after each combat!

[Darth_Gandalf]

I believe some people really may be resting that often in PoE, hence my suggestion to prolong the time between rests.

 

Of course, if you put it off too long, your companions could die of their wounds... Bandages and elixirs would only be a temporary solution: literally putting on a bandaid.

[archangel979]

While IE games did allow you this, I personally I didn't do this. I continued until I was left out of good spells and healing spells. Also I tried to avoid resting in areas where there was a big chance of being interrupted as I didn't load the game unless someone died.

[Namutree]

In the IE games I was literally resting after each combat. Combat ends, rest, move on. Pretty annoying. How much more often do you have to rest in PoE actually? You can't get more often than after each combat!

You may have done this, but it was far from mandatory. As it is now in poe there will a LOT of resting and going back to town for the inn. Far more so than in the IE games. The solution here is to increase our health so it isn't such a hassle just to look around in the wilderness.

[Shevek]

Sawyer has already stated that they will be looking at reducing focus fire AI to spread out the damage. Once they do that and maybe tweak the stamina:health ratios a bit, time between rests will be good. People should probably try to adjust away from the prebuff and zerg mentality of the IE games too.

[Namutree]

Sawyer has already stated that they will be looking at reducing focus fire AI to spread out the damage. Once they do that and maybe tweak the stamina:health ratios a bit, time between rests will be good. People should probably try to adjust away from the prebuff and zerg mentality of the IE games too.

Zerg mentality?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Considering we have two big cities and presumably quests in those cities and inns in those cities. Why wouldn't you rest spam in those cities? Even in the Beta, if you attack the Orlan in the inn and kill her, you can go down stairs and rest before you leave the inn. So not only killing her is a viable option, you can immediately rest afterwards with no camping supplies. LOL.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[GreyFox]

I agree with the OP and actually made a post in another thread that said the same thing basically.

As to the poster who said he literally rested after every fight in the IE games....why? you got beat down that bad? 

Also you realize you can do this in PE as well? If anything putting that little #2 beside camping supplies does nothing and just going back to town adds just another thing to do for people who want to play that way.

In other words its on you if you do that and not the game as it doesn't force you do to so....also you were annoyed by your own actions....

Edited September 7, 2014 by GreyFox

[Yonjuro]

...

 Why not simply include healing items that only temporarily restore health? When a character is grievously wounded in combat, why not administer aid with bandages, poultices and healing elixirs (like might happen in a real life situation)? These could temporarily restore health, allowing the player to carry on a little longer without resting. They would have a time limit, and would ultimately expire, forcing you to then rest. There could even be a deleterious effect for using too many bandages or elixirs without taking a good rest.

 

What do you think?

 

 This is a good idea. The current system replaces the cleric with the health bar but it doesn't replace healing potions/scrolls etc. with anything.  

[IndiraLightfoot]

While IE games did allow you this, I personally I didn't do this. I continued until I was left out of good spells and healing spells. Also I tried to avoid resting in areas where there was a big chance of being interrupted as I didn't load the game unless someone died.

Heh, quite often, I even kept going if party members died. As far as possible, I wanted to "roleplay" the challenges that came with such calamities.

[Infinitron]

Considering we have two big cities and presumably quests in those cities and inns in those cities. Why wouldn't you rest spam in those cities? Even in the Beta, if you attack the Orlan in the inn and kill her, you can go down stairs and rest before you leave the inn. So not only killing her is a viable option, you can immediately rest afterwards with no camping supplies. LOL.

 

This is accounted for: http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/469557999036295539

[IndiraLightfoot]

Ouch! That's bordering on the bizarre, Infinitron.

 

JESawyer

"In those cases, combat will likely be tuned for a "full-bore" party. It's easier to make strategic adaptations if you fail a fight and can immediately change the party's loadout, but such fights will have a heavier emphasis on efficiency and tactical precision."

 

This is really bad news for diversity, surprises and exploration in general. PoE will become weird in this way.

Leader in your party: "We're in a town now. Beware, all enemies here are better than dragons in caves 3,000 feet up Ominous Mountain or the lich lord in Untergang Crypt. See, that thug by that barrel there. He has wrestled a frost giant to his knees with a secret finger grip."

 

A CRPG of this kind shouldn't ever has to resort to that kind of predictability just in order to save a flawed resting health/stamina system. 

 

I'm actually speechless right now. I'll have to get back on this.

[Infinitron]

 

Ouch! That's bordering on the bizarre, Infinitron.

 

JESawyer

"In those cases, combat will likely be tuned for a "full-bore" party. It's easier to make strategic adaptations if you fail a fight and can immediately change the party's loadout, but such fights will have a heavier emphasis on efficiency and tactical precision."

 

This is really bad news for diversity, surprises and exploration in general. PoE will become weird in this way.

Leader in your party: "We're in a town now. Beware, all enemies here are better than dragons in caves 3,000 feet up Ominous Mountain or the lich lord in Untergang Crypt. See, that thug by that barrel there. He has wrestled a frost giant to his knees with a secret finger grip."

 

A CRPG of this kind shouldn't ever has to resort to that kind of predictability just in order to save a flawed resting health/stamina system. 

 

I'm actually speechless right now. I'll have to get back on this.

 

 

I think you are overreacting.

 

Fact is, in towns you are most likely to meet enemy NPC parties, which are typically among the most formidable classes of fights in low level Infinity Engine combat.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Infinitron

[archangel979]

 

Ouch! That's bordering on the bizarre, Infinitron.

 

JESawyer

"In those cases, combat will likely be tuned for a "full-bore" party. It's easier to make strategic adaptations if you fail a fight and can immediately change the party's loadout, but such fights will have a heavier emphasis on efficiency and tactical precision."

 

This is really bad news for diversity, surprises and exploration in general. PoE will become weird in this way.

Leader in your party: "We're in a town now. Beware, all enemies here are better than dragons in caves 3,000 feet up Ominous Mountain or the lich lord in Untergang Crypt. See, that thug by that barrel there. He has wrestled a frost giant to his knees with a secret finger grip."

 

A CRPG of this kind shouldn't ever has to resort to that kind of predictability just in order to save a flawed resting health/stamina system. 

 

I'm actually speechless right now. I'll have to get back on this.

 

Well it is not like this is new to them. I am still pissed off each time I remember Orcs from NWN2 and their 90 HP or whatever. Whoever though it is cool to create a whole tribe of high level orcs that still act like lvl 1 orcs was smoking something fierce...

Cases like these are the exact reason why you need simulation systems and lore

Edited September 7, 2014 by archangel979

[Monte Carlo]

 

Ouch! That's bordering on the bizarre, Infinitron.

 

JESawyer

"In those cases, combat will likely be tuned for a "full-bore" party. It's easier to make strategic adaptations if you fail a fight and can immediately change the party's loadout, but such fights will have a heavier emphasis on efficiency and tactical precision."

 

This is really bad news for diversity, surprises and exploration in general. PoE will become weird in this way.

Leader in your party: "We're in a town now. Beware, all enemies here are better than dragons in caves 3,000 feet up Ominous Mountain or the lich lord in Untergang Crypt. See, that thug by that barrel there. He has wrestled a frost giant to his knees with a secret finger grip."

 

A CRPG of this kind shouldn't ever has to resort to that kind of predictability just in order to save a flawed resting health/stamina system. 

 

I'm actually speechless right now. I'll have to get back on this.

 

 

I take Infinitron's point, but nonetheless these type of decisions (McGuyvering encounters to fit your system, not designing a system that facilitates your encounter implementation) is normally the sort of thing you'd see Sawyer eviscerate in full-on Doctor Spock logic-assault mode. His facility for oratory is legendary, but in the end you run out of corners to paint yourself into.

 

The irony isn't lost on me.

 

As someone else might say, Ha! Good fun!

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Ouch! That's bordering on the bizarre, Infinitron.

 

JESawyer

"In those cases, combat will likely be tuned for a "full-bore" party. It's easier to make strategic adaptations if you fail a fight and can immediately change the party's loadout, but such fights will have a heavier emphasis on efficiency and tactical precision."

 

This is really bad news for diversity, surprises and exploration in general. PoE will become weird in this way.

Leader in your party: "We're in a town now. Beware, all enemies here are better than dragons in caves 3,000 feet up Ominous Mountain or the lich lord in Untergang Crypt. See, that thug by that barrel there. He has wrestled a frost giant to his knees with a secret finger grip."

 

A CRPG of this kind shouldn't ever has to resort to that kind of predictability just in order to save a flawed resting health/stamina system. 

 

I'm actually speechless right now. I'll have to get back on this.

 

 

I think you are overreacting.

 

Fact is, in towns you are most likely to meet enemy NPC parties, which are typically among the most formidable classes of fights in low level D&D-style combat.

 

 

Not on the systemic level, I'm not. I'll have to digest this, but I'm already certain that you have a major flaw in your CRPG, if that's the reason you make all city encounters much harder. Like archangel979 just said - there should be lore, inherent logic and story reasons behind stuff like this, and not "the resting system + health/stamina is dented, so let's turn cities, towns, oases, camping sites, caravan sites, into gauntlets of horrors."

Edited September 7, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Elerond]

 

Ouch! That's bordering on the bizarre, Infinitron.

 

JESawyer

"In those cases, combat will likely be tuned for a "full-bore" party. It's easier to make strategic adaptations if you fail a fight and can immediately change the party's loadout, but such fights will have a heavier emphasis on efficiency and tactical precision."

 

This is really bad news for diversity, surprises and exploration in general. PoE will become weird in this way.

Leader in your party: "We're in a town now. Beware, all enemies here are better than dragons in caves 3,000 feet up Ominous Mountain or the lich lord in Untergang Crypt. See, that thug by that barrel there. He has wrestled a frost giant to his knees with a secret finger grip."

 

A CRPG of this kind shouldn't ever has to resort to that kind of predictability just in order to save a flawed resting health/stamina system. 

 

I'm actually speechless right now. I'll have to get back on this.

 

 

Same issue can be found in IE games (especially BG & BG2), where fights in cities had only tactical meaning as all strategic resources (spells, abilities) where easy to replenish without drawing any negative effects those games had, mainly speaking about random enemy encounters that could happen if you rested in wilderness. Consumables are only strategic resource that can lost in those fights so that they aren't easy to replenish 

 

Only sensible way to bring more strategic layer impact to those fights is to add timed quest/missions/happenings in the game, which were thing that backers seemed not want when they were under discussion.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

LOL. This just takes the cake.

[Infinitron]

Fights are easy: "Sawyer is ruining our game!"

 

Fights are hard: "Sawyer is ruining our game!"

 

lol

 

I welcome difficulty wherever it comes. You're in a town. When things get violent in a town, that means some serious **** is going down.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Infinitron

[Monte Carlo]

Fights are easy: "Sawyer is ruining our game!"

 

Fights are hard: "Sawyer is ruining our game!"

 

lol

 

I welcome difficulty wherever it comes. You're in a town. When things get violent in a town, that means some serious **** is going down.

 

Are you on a retainer for the man?

[Infinitron]

 

Fights are easy: "Sawyer is ruining our game!"

 

Fights are hard: "Sawyer is ruining our game!"

 

lol

 

I welcome difficulty wherever it comes. You're in a town. When things get violent in a town, that means some serious **** is going down.

 

Are you on a retainer for the man?

 

 

I'm an optimist.

 

Also, I remember a little game called Baldur's Gate 2 which was all about crazy-tough battles that took place in a city. It seems like a strange thing for the BG2-loving, PoE-hating crowd to complain to about.

[Sarex]

I'm an optimist.

 

Also, I remember a little game called Baldur's Gate 2 which was all about crazy-tough battles that took place in a city. It seems like a strange thing for the BG2-loving, PoE-hating crowd to complain to about.

 

Well if they were tough they certainly didn't play the same way as in PoE. So it's pretty much down to picking you poison. Though I personally believe that trash fights in BG2 were easier then the ones in PoE.

[PrimeJunta]

Uh... some of the city fights in BG2 were plenty tough. The beholders. The vampires. Kangaxx for cryin' out loud. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

We're comparing PoE which would be more comparable to BG1 in terms of levels (heroic tier) to BG2 which was more paragon tier now? I noticed on the Codex Infinitron you take issue comparing PoE with BG2 (eg. Thieves and Rogues) but do want to compare PoE with BG2 with city fights.