Second impressions thread! [Build 278 version]

[Valorian]

No, that is one of the benefits of movement speed bonuses in combat.

 

In RTS games, I'm going to use Warcraft 3 as an example, you get boots of speed on your hero so you can - chase people down, and preferably have a better chance of running away from battle. Whether you're playing against a Human or AI opponent.

 

This is not Warcraft 3 or anything similar, Sensuki. You have to execute orders in real time in such a game. There's no convenient pause-and-assign-orders there.

 

You seem to not understand that kiting trivializes the aforementioned type of enemies in a game like PoE.

 

What's your solution to that tactic, Valorian?

 

I'm glad you asked. The solution is in the OP of a recent thread (I think you posted something in that topic too).

 

 

Constitution.  I suggest adding a mechanic called Exhaustion (or Stamina, if stamina gets renamed to endurance).

 

Effects of exhaustion:

Characters and creatures would be able to run for a specific amount of time (substantially modified by Constitution) during combat before becoming exhausted. Exhausted = 50% movement speed. The timer for exhaustion would activate only when clicking on open ground to move, during combat, and not when you click on opponents to attack them; thus affects only people and creatures who run away from combat. (AI wouldn't be debilitated by this unless it's programmed to run away.)

 

Health and stamina are obviously more important to people who actually stand toe-to-toe with foes and take hits.

If a party member is not suited for melee combat and gets targeted by monsters, what do you do? No, there's no need to panic, you just click on the character and keep moving him away from the monster(s). The character will keep running in circles during the process of dismantling monsters with ranged attacks. A melee character who's already engaged will have to deal with disengagement attacks first.

It also eliminates a popular exploit.

[Sensuki]

This is not Warcraft 3 or anything similar, Sensuki. You have to execute orders in real time in such a game. There's no convenient pause-and-assign-orders there.

 

You seem to not understand that kiting trivializes the aforementioned type of enemies in a game like PoE.

And you are conveniently ignoring the fact that you can already kite in the game. Suit yourself, I guess.

 

Funnily enough Pillars of Eternity's attack animation & recovery system is 95% the same as Warcraft 3

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

 

This is not Warcraft 3 or anything similar, Sensuki. You have to execute orders in real time in such a game. There's no convenient pause-and-assign-orders there.

 

You seem to not understand that kiting trivializes the aforementioned type of enemies in a game like PoE.

And you are conveniently ignoring the fact that you can already kite in the game. Suit yourself, I guess.

 

 

Huh? No, I'm not ignoring it, I'm pointing it out as a problem.

 

When you go on about how it's like this in RTS games too, you also forget another crucial resource in RTS: TIME.

If I decide to spend time kiting (neutral) creatures in a game like Warcraft or Dota, I must analyze if it would be better to simply stand there and engage in melee, killing hostile jungle creatures faster to not give the opponent (AI or player) an advantage. In such a game time is a resource, in PoE it is not.

[Sensuki]

Not quite.

 

Your exhaustion solution is fair enough if we were going for a simulationist system, but I don't really think it solves the issue, especially if the AI is changed.

 

Currently:

 

AI has like two targeting clauses: #1 enemy that attacked it, #2 first enemy it sees (I think, there might be a couple more), if you know which enemy the AI is attacking you can use that character to run away while your other party members wear it down. This tactic is not valid against all enemies though as some are really fast, and the Stone Beetles have a burrow teleport (well due to bugs lots of enemies are teleporting), and also in some areas/encounters you don't have the room to run around that much - like the beetle area in the Dyrford Crossing. There's not much room to run away because of the limited navmesh area and the fact that you can aggro three of the nearby encounters if you're not careful.

 

Your exhaustion idea would make it so that this tactic isn't as good, however the AI will most likely be altered to have some kind of weight system or more clauses for targeting, so it will 'intelligently' change targets based on a set of conditions.

 

This is how it works in the IE games, it is possible to 'steal aggro' by moving one character away and having your other characters block the path, or intercept, or deal damage to an enemy, causing them to change targets (if they are melee/ranged, casters are a bit different). This makes it possible to use multiple party members to abuse the AI and make a series of mini-retreats so that you are constantly kiting an enemy around.

 

I'm not 100% sure if you have the beta or not, but most of the encounters are against groups of enemies, which doesn't make kiting very useful because time you spend kiting is time you are not applying buffs/dps in combat against multiple foes - so in that regard time is important in the IE games and in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Against single foes/couple of foes - kiting is something you can do, but when there's a bunch of enemies, it's probably a waste of time.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Mayama]

Just give enemies that can easily be kited hard CC like stuns, disables etc.

[mutonizer]

Something more simple maybe? (simpler some might say!)

 

- All Actors (enemy, friend, etc) are by default in a MOVEMENT STATE

- Any action but movement puts an actor in an ACTIVE STATE for X seconds (10? 15? balance that out), reducing movement to 25% of base (need to be really slow to make it matter), then switches you back to MOVEMENT STATE if no action was taken to reset timer of ACTIVE STATE.

 

Means people engaged in melee or taking actions/etc will really give a feel of being in melee/active with slower movement.

Wizards and other back-liners not taking actions, just waiting for the right moment to unleash, will be able to quickly re-position/run away.

Makes kiting impossible (well, multi kitting with baiter and the like is possible but..well..you get the point)

Edited September 4, 2014 by mutonizer

[Sensuki]

Sorry to say, but that sounds pretty terrible.

 

Combat feel is way more important than preventing kiting 1,2,3 enemies that you outnumber that are slower than all of your characters. Most kiting issues are solved by having multiple enemy encounters that have intelligent targeting.

 

The Korgrak fight is intentionally designed to be kite-able as that's how the designers themselves have been playing it.

 

I'll bet you that the Adra Dragon, will not be

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[mutonizer]

Sorry to say, but that sounds pretty terrible.

That was for Mayama suggestion?

If not, slower "active characters" would give a better more intense feel to combat I think, instead of having everyone run around at 100% speed no matter what they're doing

[Valorian]

but most of the encounters are against groups of enemies

 

It's possible regardless, and once they're down to 1 melee enemy it becomes easier, of course.

 

 

And you know what? It's not something I will lose sleep over. Kiting is a trashy "tactic" in a game with pause&play so I won't use it, but I'd like people to be encouraged to use their creativity instead of resorting to this.

[Sensuki]

That was for Mayama suggestion?

If not, slower "active characters" would give a better more intense feel to combat I think, instead of having everyone run around at 100% speed no matter what they're doing

No it was for yours.

 

I can see where you're coming from but you're forgetting that we're talking about differences in movement speed, which is a benefit of [something], such as the passive bonus one of the Aumaua get or that Monks get. An active state of combat MS down would still mean that bonus movement speed would still have to make characters faster, otherwise it nullifies the point of bonus MS.

 

And a delay before you can move again after you undertake an action would make the combat feel really crappy.

 

The reason we are discussing this topic is that the pause in recovery for melee characters already feels really crappy.

 

This is a spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games, not some half-turn-based game.

 

And you know what? It's not something I will lose sleep over. Kiting is a trashy "tactic" in a game with pause&play so I won't use it, but I'd like people to be encouraged to use their creativity instead of resorting to this.

I agree. I don't use it either.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

Also, Sensuki, this is totally not about "going for a simulationist system". In a simulationist system you'd also get more "exhaustion points" when running towards an enemy to attack. I deliberately eliminated that.

[Headbomb]

That could work but there are some potential logic issues: e.g. fire bow, switch to melee weapon set, move until Recovery expires, switch to ranged set, fire.

 

Switching weapon sets costs time no? That alone would make it an unviable tactic.

 

Anyway, I'm into archery myself, and while you could knock an arrow at regular walking speed, it would be harder than while standing. Anything more than a jog would make it impossible.

 

Archers and ranged characters are far away from the danger zone. It's fine for them to take the penalty for moving, because aligning an arrow with the bowstring, or loading a muzzle, is precision work and requires some concentration. Their advantage is being away from danger. Moving SHOULD halt progress on recovery.

 

Melee characters are close to the danger zone, but they swing melee weapons, and re-positioning a sword+shield while walking around is a piece of cake.

Their penalty is the increased risk, and their advantage should be that recovery time isn't affected by movement. D&D had the 5' step rule that allowed you to position yourself mid-fight without penalty. Melee distances involved in PoE are so short that pretty much any movement in melee will not be much more than 5 feet in a given "round" anyway, and those involving long than that will/should provoke disengagement attacks.

[Sensuki]

Archers and ranged characters are far away from the danger zone. It's fine for them to take the penalty for moving, because aligning an arrow with the bowstring, or loading a muzzle, is precision work and requires some concentration. Their advantage is being away from danger. Moving SHOULD halt progress on recovery.

Why should movement halt bow and crossbow recovery, rather than just slow it down a bit?

 

We only need to solve the issue with ranged kiting, and that would probably do it. No need to bring turn-based logic to the table, as this is a real time game.

 

Having movement stop their recovery time makes it pointless for them to move at all unless being chased by a melee target. Slowing it does not, and allows some more tactical positioning options and target changing stuff.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Headbomb]

Why should it not? Have you tried knocking an arrow on a bow (or crossbow) before while walking? It's near impossible to do unless you have a very slow walk. Every step you take misaligns the arrow, and you'll miss the string. While it's something you could do with practice, you'd be still be super inefficient at it. We're talking easily a x2 increase in time, probably more, even if you're walking at 'scouting' speeds. Time-wise, you're much better of getting to where you want to be, and loading your bow when you get there.

 

"Having movement stop their recovery time makes it pointless for them to move at all unless being chased by a melee target. Slowing it does not, and allows some more tactical positioning options and target changing stuff."

 

It IS pointless for an archer to move unless you're being chased or want a better shot. That wouldn't change even without any penalty for moving with ranged weapons. And that's how it should be. That's why you have bow in the first place. Moving should be done because you want a better position. And the trade off is "taking more crap shots" or "sacrificing some attacks so the next ones will be good shots".

Edited September 4, 2014 by Headbomb

[Sensuki]

This is a game, which is an abstraction of reality, I don't really think there's room for a simulationist mindset like that in this game when the design is mostly the opposite - otherwise you might as well say that Might should not affect spell damage and all that stuff as well.

There's also no way that you can reload an Arbalest as fast as you can in this game either

My solution comes from a purely mechanical perspective. You'll also notice that I was talking about recovery time, the Bow animation itself is very short (pull, nock and draw) - 20 frames for a Hunting Bow actually.

Wanna see some ridiculous archery?

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sarky]

Oh, this is much better. 

 

My party's gear no longer disappears, I can complete quests, and the pacing of combat has mostly improved a whole lot.

 

There's something off with fighting the Temple Guards and their friends though, it's not fun to spend ten minutes having your whole party deal less than 1 damage to a heavily armed guard. And sweet jebubs, those Deep Wounds. I'm not sure I like something that can drains both health and stamina at the same time. I'm also not a huge fan of something draining your health while you're unconscious so that you're dead in ten seconds, unless your priest drops everything to try and prevent the hideous damage. Which generally means the rest of the party gets a battering. 

 

The rest of the combat though, I have to admit it mostly flows a lot better. Some of the cooldown times seem crazy, but the pacing is better than it was, and that's a good thing. If the next update improves things as much as this one, I'd say things will be looking pretty good come release day.

[Seari]

Wanna see some ridiculous archery?

 

-

Holy ****, that is badass.

 

Edited September 4, 2014 by Seari

[InsaneCommander]

 

Wanna see some ridiculous archery?

 

-

Holy ****, that is badass.

 

 

Impressive. Legolas is an amateur.

 

EDIT: New Talent: Lars Andersen's Disciple - greatly reduces recovery time for bows

Edited September 4, 2014 by InsaneCommander

[Sensuki]

You mean reduce right ?

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[InsaneCommander]

You mean reduce right ?

Yes LOL.

[StrangeCat]

This is a game, which is an abstraction of reality, I don't really think there's room for a simulationist mindset like that in this game when the design is mostly the opposite - otherwise you might as well say that Might should not affect spell damage and all that stuff as well.

 

There's also no way that you can reload an Arbalest as fast as you can in this game either

 

My solution comes from a purely mechanical perspective. You'll also notice that I was talking about recovery time, the Bow animation itself is very short (pull, nock and draw) - 20 frames for a Hunting Bow actually.

 

Wanna see some ridiculous archery?

 

 

 

And Bruce Lee Said use "Limitation that is not Limitation"  "Use the Way that is No Way."

 

Modern everything is always wrong.  We always have to go back and look and see that out limitations at doing something are not what some other culture had. 

Amazing Video!

[Sensuki]

Another funny thing is that melee fighting looks absolutely nothing like we think it does either

 

Example: 

 

 

Whole video is very interesting

[StrangeCat]

I hope you Devs at the end of your bug crushing and getting the Combat to feel like combat really add even more.

 

I want to hear voices Crying out in Battle, I want to see Blood fly, Mosters feel the weight of weapons.  I would really like your team to take combat and make it alive!  And I want the music....Never mind....

 

Let's see some wild spells that Open a Cloud of red mist and have hands come out and rip characters to shreds(maybe that's a high end spell)   (just an idea)

 

I hope that you have time to add those details.  Details that would make combat so invigorating that people would careless if there was xp or not.   

 

Instead of looking to the past at everything I think your team really should focus on how we can make it even better.  

 

Imagine the Witcher as a Isometric game with a party.

 

Critical hits I want to see limbs fly off or heads or more blood.   Or at the very least the creature or person really feel the attack.

 

There should be bodies left over.  not these sill icon things that your using(treasures) 

 

There is to much high fantasy in your game I think.   And you say Dark and Gritty?  where?

[The Loyal Nub]

Well my second impressions are generally positive. Pathfinding is much improved but most importantly I can see my party a little better now against the terrain and in combat. I also think the icons for spells and actions are much improved so kudos to the developers on that. Combat still seems too fast but I may have to get used to that and rely on pause as my friend. I'll play around a bit more with it this weekend. Didn't get a chance to test saves yet as my party were wiped by the third beetle encounter!

[Ratoo]

Combat seems much better, the pacing is much more playable and I have a better idea of what is going on now.  The audio effects seem to cut in and out and the battle music can't seem to decide when it is going to stop playing.