A different view on the whole XP controversy

[Seari]

 You're substituting combat xp which people argue can be abused with other systems that can be abused? The Cyclopedia? Lure one beetle and kill it with a party of 6. Then lure another beetle and kill it. etc. The same with other enemies. Lure one enemy, kill it. Lure the same enemy on its own and kill it. That page is now complete and you're rewarded with xp by luring one enemy out at a time. And with awarding Crafting with xp, that can be abused as well.

 

The way I see it, the more you go from the current system in PoE and introduce other suggestions like the Cyclopedia or crafting while ignoring the xp systems that were in the IE games like combat xp, the more players will find ways to abuse that system. And Obsidian probably knows this.

 

I really hope that combat xp being exploitable, isn't the point for having been removed. But anyways:

 

This right here is the main problem with the mentality behind designing this game. If the players don't have the self-constraint to not do something like that, well then maybe they should **** off and play an mmo, instead of a Role-Playing Game.

[Ganrich]

 

 

Ideas for Objective XP dumps other than clearing FoW and sub-boss XP:

 

-If the Cyclopedia weren't linked with lore then completely filling out a page on an enemy monster could give XP.  However, doing this with Lore governing the speed that the Cyclopedia fills in makes it a required skill.  This is less of an issue if NPCs with high Lore help fill the Cyclopedia out.  Has anyone tested this?

 

-XP could be granted for crafting items. 

 

That is all I have atm.

 

 

 You're substituting combat xp which people argue can be abused with other systems that can be abused? The Cyclopedia? Lure one beetle and kill it with a party of 6. Then lure another beetle and kill it. etc. The same with other enemies. Lure one enemy, kill it. Lure the same enemy on its own and kill it. That page is now complete and you're rewarded with xp by luring one enemy out at a time. And with awarding Crafting with xp, that can be abused as well.

 

The way I see it, the more you go from the current system in PoE and introduce other suggestions like the Cyclopedia or crafting while ignoring the xp systems that were in the IE games like combat xp, the more players will find ways to abuse that system. And Obsidian probably knows this.

 

 

Um... I recommend a system that reward one for filling the Cyclopedia XP by killing enemies, and you say it is exploitable because you can kill enemies to get that XP.  Enemies are in clumps for the most part anyway.  If you pull one... you tend to get a few.  There are exceptions like a few wood beetles and the lions.  What you are saying is that the game itself is possibly exploitable, and that has nothing to do with the Cyclopedia idea. 

 

The crafting system should only give XP once btw.  I realize I didn't put that in, but without that you could run the risk of something like spell memorization xp system abuse.  Although, the resources to craft those things are still limited.

[Gromnir]

 

 

I think adding an XP reward for clearing the FoW (or a percentage depending on the map layout) would really help as players that want to kill everything can do that, but others can scout the area and avoid the little encounters they don't feel they need to engage in can do so. 

 

am admitting that awarding xp for clearing the fog of war appeals to us personally 'bout as much as does a nice heaping tablespoon of vegemite.

 

*shudder*

 

option 1) mechanically, we can see adding this idea as a quest... a cartographer's quest. am not certain what the reward would be. perhaps the lone achievement in the game could be Cartographer Completionist (aka slow death.) clear each map would result in some objective xp, and final reveal of all fog of war would result in a final quest reward. get you a golden compass and some 1007? player could use dialogue options to hire sub-contractors to do some exploring... or even possibly to lie to the quest giver 'bout areas not actual explored.  "yes, that is genuine walrus tusk scrimshaw i traded for when i was in the arctic mapping the coast of ____________." could use stealth or combat to clear maps. could find ways to get all sorta abilities to be relevant and make the quest more interesting.

 

or

 

option 2) you could make a simple automatic award device by which you get xp for clearing the fog of war for each map.

 

hmmm. does option 1 or option 2 sound more like the kinda thing you (not the kill xp folks, but, y'know, sane people) would want in a crpg? sure, you may change option two, but if it is simply an automatic award, will it be Possible to offer more gameplay options than an actual quest?

 

am thinking we is back at square 1, but then again, others may see different.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 5, 2014 by Gromnir

[Seari]

I don't know how the **** to end a quote to edit my previous post.

 

It's a single player game, why would anyone care about exploits. I don't give a **** how you play your single-player game, why the **** should you care how I play mine? As long as there aren't game breaking bugs/exploits, like some unbalanced weapon doing bazillion damage, I don't give a ****, and neither should you.

 

And neither should Sawyer. Balance isn't the only thing that makes a good single-player game. Because fun doesn't equal balance and balance doesn't equal fun. When fun suffers due to balance, then maybe there's something wrong with your game design philosophy or whatever.

[Ganrich]

Option 2 sounds cool, Gromnir.  I would argue that one could be just drawing the lay of the land on a piece of parchment though.

[Gromnir]

Option 2 sounds cool, Gromnir.  I would argue that one could be just drawing the lay of the land on a piece of parchment though.

gonna have to disagree. give us a choice between option 1 and option 2 and we cannot find a way to make option 2 The Win.  

 

'course, in the spirit o' full disclosure, Gromnir were one o' the folks who were loudest on the bg2 boards railing against the mowing o' bg1 wilderness maps. thank goodness the bioware developers felt similar and nixed such maps in bg2.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Ganrich]

I don't know how the **** to end a quote to edit my previous post.

 

It's a single player game, why would anyone care about exploits. I don't give a **** how you play your single-player game, why the **** should you care how I play mine? As long as there aren't game breaking bugs/exploits, like some unbalanced weapon doing bazillion damage, I don't give a ****, and neither should you.

 

And neither should Sawyer. Balance isn't the only thing that makes a good single-player game. Because fun doesn't equal balance and balance doesn't equal fun. When fun suffers due to balance, then maybe there's something wrong with your game design philosophy or whatever.

 

I don't disagree with you, but the reality is that Sawyer does care, and as a repercussion we have to make concessions.  I really like Sawyer, and really agree with a lot of his ideas.  I like Quest/Objective XP systems, but not because of they are harder to exploit.  I like them because they feel more free to me.  That said, most games with Kill/Quest systems were a problem not because of the system, but because of the implementation.  EG -  I can Diplo my way through a dodgy conversation and get 900XP for quest completion, or I can not diplo it, get 1200xp for killing 3 bandits, and get that 900xp for completing the quest. 

 

It is what it is, and we have to make due with the hand dealt.  Best thing we can do is make suggestions to remedy the abrupt difference between what this game will likely have and what we are use to. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Um... I recommend a system that reward one for filling the Cyclopedia XP by killing enemies, and you say it is exploitable because you can kill enemies to get that XP.  Enemies are in clumps for the most part anyway.  If you pull one... you tend to get a few.  There are exceptions like a few wood beetles and the lions.  What you are saying is that the game itself is possibly exploitable, and that has nothing to do with the Cyclopedia idea. 

 

The crafting system should only give XP once btw.  I realize I didn't put that in, but without that you could run the risk of something like spell memorization xp system abuse.  Although, the resources to craft those things are still limited.

 

 

You're also ignoring a core fundamental with rewarding xp for players who choose the combat option and ignoring players who choose the non-combat option. It comes across as double dipping for combat players and non-combat players get the shaft. Which is something a lot of players are against with kill xp including yourself.

 

Example: a quest has two possible ways to solve it.

 

1. The combat player solves the quest, gets the quest reward but also gets the cyclopedia reward for killing everything in the dungeon. In fact, the combat player might have killed various monsters during their kill spree and received two or three cyclopedia pages.

 

2. The player who avoided combat and solved the quest, only gets the quest reward and that's it.

 

Not very balanced at all. It encourages combat style play. eg. kill sprees. And players will go the combat route to get those Cyclopedia pages and kill xp rewards and we can't have that.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Ganrich]

 

Option 2 sounds cool, Gromnir.  I would argue that one could be just drawing the lay of the land on a piece of parchment though.

gonna have to disagree. give us a choice between option 1 and option 2 and we cannot find a way to make option 2 The Win.  

 

'course, in the spirit o' full disclosure, Gromnir were one o' the folks who were loudest on the bg2 boards railing against the mowing o' bg1 wilderness maps. thank goodness the bioware developers felt similar and nixed such maps in bg2.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Different strokes, no?  We are all like snowflakes. 

[kgambit]

option 1) mechanically, we can see adding this idea as a quest... a cartographer's quest. am not certain what the reward would be. perhaps the lone achievement in the game could be Cartographer Completionist

clear each map would result in some objective xp, and final reveal of all fog of war would result in a final quest reward

 

 

The reward upon completion of the "cartographer's quest" might be a map that results in some previously hidden area being revealed on the world map with a hidden treasure to be found there, or perhaps a permanent boost to the appropriate stat or an equippable item that grants the same

 

You could also do the same with discovering certain landmarks; a statue here, a ruin there, etc.

 

It's kind of a nice idea - gives out some exploration xp - doesn't have to be a lot for each step - and then add a reward at the end. 

 

I also like the Monster Lore proposal from earlier.  Small rewards for filling out a bestiary entry completely either xp and/or a combat bonus against that monster type with a larger bonus for compiling the whole bestiary.    But I see it has some issues around promoting combat as a preferred play style.  *sigh* 

Edited September 5, 2014 by kgambit

[Gromnir]

 

option 1) mechanically, we can see adding this idea as a quest... a cartographer's quest. am not certain what the reward would be. perhaps the lone achievement in the game could be Cartographer Completionist

clear each map would result in some objective xp, and final reveal of all fog of war would result in a final quest reward

 

 

The reward upon completion of the "cartographer's quest" might be a map that results in some previously hidden area being revealed on the world map with a hidden treasure to be found there, or perhaps a permanent boost to the appropriate stat or an equippable item that grants the same

 

You could also do the same with discovering certain landmarks; a statue here, a ruin there, etc.

 

It's kind of a nice idea - gives out some exploration xp - doesn't have to be a lot for each step - and then add a reward at the end. 

 

as a fully developed quest, we can see many ways to make the fog of war clearing mechanic at least a bit more interesting from a role-play perspective. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Ganrich]

@ Hiro - that is fair.  Not all of us Quest/Objective XP guys are on the same wavelength.  I have no issue killing critters in the game.  I just like having a logical, in-game reason to do so.  I don't want my reasoning to be XP since it is an abstract.  Not that I can't restrain myself, but I would rather be rewarded with in-game knowledge. 

 

Some just want to always avoid combat.  I want to do what the character that I lay out would do, and some (particularly my first character) will be a guy that is all about learning.  Sometimes I expect that will cause combat, and other times it will cause avoiding it.  However, I want to be equally reward and for playing it that way.  Many Combat XP systems in the past haven't done that, but it can be done....... just not easily. 

[archangel979]

 

 

 

I think adding an XP reward for clearing the FoW (or a percentage depending on the map layout) would really help as players that want to kill everything can do that, but others can scout the area and avoid the little encounters they don't feel they need to engage in can do so. 

 

See now this is an Idea. This thread was about ideas not yelling at each other. We can do that in all the other xp threads.

 

How is that different or easier to implement than combat xp. I mean if you make it a marginal xp gain, might as well not have it, and if you make it substantial, then there might as wel be combat xp. At least that's how I understand it, but I'm half asleep so.

 

edit: Might as well have rare or "elite" enemies give xp or something. But this is pointless, you either have combat xp or you don't, no point in half arsed solutions.

 

It isn't. I didn't highlight it because of that. This thread was, assuming combat xp would never happen, to be about ideas that Obsidian might bend on and get in. So if we had any common ground between the Hard core Quest XP's and Combat XP's to meet in the middle with Objective xp ideas. I think there is some.

 

This man understands my purpose

[archangel979]

 

 

Ideas for Objective XP dumps other than clearing FoW and sub-boss XP:

 

-If the Cyclopedia weren't linked with lore then completely filling out a page on an enemy monster could give XP.  However, doing this with Lore governing the speed that the Cyclopedia fills in makes it a required skill.  This is less of an issue if NPCs with high Lore help fill the Cyclopedia out.  Has anyone tested this?

 

-XP could be granted for crafting items. 

 

That is all I have atm.

 

 

 You're substituting combat xp which people argue can be abused with other systems that can be abused? The Cyclopedia? Lure one beetle and kill it with a party of 6. Then lure another beetle and kill it. etc. The same with other enemies. Lure one enemy, kill it. Lure the same enemy on its own and kill it. That page is now complete and you're rewarded with xp by luring one enemy out at a time. And with awarding Crafting with xp, that can be abused as well.

 

The way I see it, the more you go from the current system in PoE and introduce other suggestions like the Cyclopedia or crafting while ignoring the xp systems that were in the IE games like combat xp, the more players will find ways to abuse that system. And Obsidian probably knows this.

 

I think designing systems so they cannot be exploited by a few but hurt the bigger groups of people as a result is same mistake that was done by massive DRM inclusion into everything before Steam became dominant. It resulted by pirated games working better with no DRM on same computer.

That design only hurt regular customers. This design will only hurt average players. The game should not be designed for niche groups that like to exploit, but for the other 95% that play normal as they will experience all the same restriction that were put into the game for that 5%. 

 

When someone tries to overbalance or overthink things I always bring up Starcraft 1. That game has serious exploits and problems in code. And those ended up as best parts of the game that made it the esport legend it was. It was also designed that each side had crazy overpowered abilities that were not close to balanced but since all of them had some it was OK. Players were thrown into this world and left to their own devices to learn how to use them and counter what the other side had. That is best design and that is how IE games also had it.

Edited September 5, 2014 by archangel979

[Seari]

 

I simply want more ways to gain experience than flat out questing.

How about lockpicking.

 

I think people don't understand why obsidian decided to only have quest xp. It's easier to control the party level and whatever. Adding more ways, any way and not just combat, to gain xp makes it harder to control the experience level.

 

So my point is that combat xp wasn't removed because of the hassle of implementing it, but the hassle of controlling xp, character scaling. It takes a long time to balance it.

 

If there were to be any other xp gain, it would have to be marginal, and that's why I said it's pointless.

 

My eyes are barely open, so hopefully something makes sense.

 

Edit: IE games were about fun, the xp gained from combat/lockpicking/disarming/quests wasn't balanced that well. And that bring us back to the main problem with the mentality behind designing this game. Because apparently some people can't live with "exploits" or whatever, and balance precedes everything.

 

Hahaha I hit the topic stop on, without even reading what it was about, a different view on the whole xp controversy, indeed!

[Zansatsu]

 

 

option 1) mechanically, we can see adding this idea as a quest... a cartographer's quest. am not certain what the reward would be. perhaps the lone achievement in the game could be Cartographer Completionist (aka slow death.) clear each map would result in some objective xp, and final reveal of all fog of war would result in a final quest reward. get you a golden compass and some 1007? player could use dialogue options to hire sub-contractors to do some exploring... or even possibly to lie to the quest giver 'bout areas not actual explored.  "yes, that is genuine walrus tusk scrimshaw i traded for when i was in the arctic mapping the coast of ____________." could use stealth or combat to clear maps. could find ways to get all sorta abilities to be relevant and make the quest more interesting.

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

That one is a good Idea.

[Zansatsu]

 

option 1) mechanically, we can see adding this idea as a quest... a cartographer's quest. am not certain what the reward would be. perhaps the lone achievement in the game could be Cartographer Completionist

clear each map would result in some objective xp, and final reveal of all fog of war would result in a final quest reward

 

 

The reward upon completion of the "cartographer's quest" might be a map that results in some previously hidden area being revealed on the world map with a hidden treasure to be found there, or perhaps a permanent boost to the appropriate stat or an equippable item that grants the same

 

You could also do the same with discovering certain landmarks; a statue here, a ruin there, etc.

 

It's kind of a nice idea - gives out some exploration xp - doesn't have to be a lot for each step - and then add a reward at the end. 

 

I also like the Monster Lore proposal from earlier.  Small rewards for filling out a bestiary entry completely either xp and/or a combat bonus against that monster type with a larger bonus for compiling the whole bestiary.    But I see it has some issues around promoting combat as a preferred play style.  *sigh* 

 

 

I agree it isn't perfect especially if you are playing a druid, although there are some creatures druids feel are out of the natural order and must be destroyed. However it could award something other than experience per se making the reward more of a "creature" comfort. A fun reward or bonus that isn't something mandatory for progression. Your Idea about the maps giving locations to secret areas and treasure is more along the lines of what one could get from the Cyclopedia completion.

        Perhaps the quest is given out by some scholarly Wizard in a university poring over his books of creatures. He asks you if along your journeys you come across any new creatures, please bring him back all you discover. As you bring pages back, he could give you potions or trinkets or equipment that would aid you on your journey. Then at the very end if you Complete EVERY entry perhaps XP or maybe just an EPIC piece of armor.  He could let you choose 1 item from the Armory or something.  

 

Edit: You could add in a Druid motivation by making the Wizards primary goal be about preserving the species. If they know more about them they can establish proper sanctuaries or more easily capture them and such.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Zansatsu

[Fearabbit]

I've suggested it before. It sounds like a joke, but I mean it: give decent kill XP for enemies, but take it out of future quest XP rewards. It's just so much easier to do that than go back and calculate how much XP each area is worth in each difficulty level, and necessarily dropping XP awards in higher difficulties so the player doesn't reach a higher level due to all of the extra enemies.

 

Really though, I don't understand why the kill XP crowd feels the game needs kill XP. I'll admit that it makes the game more compelling, but it doesn't make it more fun. It's like the difference between Saints Row 3 and Bully: Saints Row 3 has this constant tick of money every fifteen minutes and the territorial control aspect egging you on to complete it to see that glorious 100%. I'm playing more of it per day than I did of Bully, where I only did missions because they were fun and not because I needed the money, but once I finish it I won't be replaying it again in a hurry: I am compelled, but not entertained. It's the same principle you see in an MMORPG. Saints Row 3 is, to its credit, at least short enough that I'll finish it before the boredom sets in, unlike the indefinite-length MMO.

 

Sure, kill XP might encourage you to play more hours of Pillars of Eternity per day, but unless you're in the target audience for MMORPGs (and I'm going to assume that most here are not) it's not going to have any impact on how much you enjoy the game. You'll replay the game the same amount of times you otherwise would, because the mechanics and the story are what cause you to replay a game.

 

Unless you're assuming that Pillars of Eternity is going to be a mediocre offering that needs to use psychological techniques to make finishing it even once bearable. If that's the case, I'm going to be super-disappointed no matter what, so let's all hope that the kill XP debate is moot.

 

And as I've said before: Listen to this man. :D

 

Virtually all your ideas for gaining XP can be implemented with such a system without unbalancing the game or forcing people to do something they don't want to do.

 

Kill XP, Exploration XP, Lockpicking XP, Objective XP and Quest XP. It's the perfect compromise. The best part is that gaining XP has benefits, but they are short-term benefits. The guy who kills all the monsters will level up earlier, which gives him an advantage in the boss fight. The guy who only kills when necessary will have a tougher fight, but get more XP for the quest.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

option 1) mechanically, we can see adding this idea as a quest... a cartographer's quest. am not certain what the reward would be. perhaps the lone achievement in the game could be Cartographer Completionist (aka slow death.) clear each map would result in some objective xp, and final reveal of all fog of war would result in a final quest reward. get you a golden compass and some 1007? player could use dialogue options to hire sub-contractors to do some exploring... or even possibly to lie to the quest giver 'bout areas not actual explored.  "yes, that is genuine walrus tusk scrimshaw i traded for when i was in the arctic mapping the coast of ____________." could use stealth or combat to clear maps. could find ways to get all sorta abilities to be relevant and make the quest more interesting.

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

That one is a good Idea.

 

am done with kill xp debate, 'cause more than you realize, it is moot. that being said, your recognition that the aforementioned would make a good quest is part o' the problem for all our ad hoc compromises. as between a well-developed quest that can be designed to provide multiple solutions v. an automatic grant of experience points, the quest/objective will always be having the capacity for greater options. as we noted above, you could design cartographer quest to allow for dialogue shortcuts or swindling, and kgambit gave intriguing reward possibilities 

 

"The reward upon completion of the "cartographer's quest" might be a map that results in some previously hidden area being revealed on the world map with a hidden treasure to be found there, or perhaps a permanent boost to the appropriate stat or an equippable item that grants the same"

 

those rewards could be altered slightly depending on how you resolved the quest. 

 

all o' which is seeming far superior to us than a simple automatic grant. the quest approach, with partial grants of xp granted for successful objectives (can't believe we need actual iterate that point) offers more role play options, which in a Role-Play game is inherent more desirable, but rewards may also be tailored based on actual role-play choices so as to increase the replay-ability o' the game. first play through you maybe just kill everything on the map to uncover. second play-through you might wanna at least try some o' the dialogue options that require perception or intellect or... whatever.

 

but keep in mind, we can do similar for all such automatic xp grants suggested so far. we can make'em, every single one'o' them, into more compelling and varied quests.  so, why is the automatic grant of xp superior? what about the automatic grant makes it a better option?  and while we recognizing it will never be admitted, am thinking if you consider the point, you will see how this ties in directly to any/all quest/objective/task xp arguments. therein is the problem... or the solution, if only folks would realize.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[kgambit]

 

 Perhaps the quest is given out by some scholarly Wizard in a university poring over his books of creatures. He asks you if along your journeys you come across any new creatures, please bring him back all you discover. As you bring pages back, he could give you potions or trinkets or equipment that would aid you on your journey. Then at the very end if you Complete EVERY entry perhaps XP or maybe just an EPIC piece of armor.  He could let you choose 1 item from the Armory or something.  

 

 

You could also use special items with unique bonuses tied to the creatures that have filled bestiary entries.  e.g. Shields or a breastplate made from stone beetle carapaces. 

Or perhaps tie the knowledge to additional crafting recipes that would not otherwise be available. 

[Zansatsu]

 

 

 

 

option 1) mechanically, we can see adding this idea as a quest... a cartographer's quest. am not certain what the reward would be. perhaps the lone achievement in the game could be Cartographer Completionist (aka slow death.) clear each map would result in some objective xp, and final reveal of all fog of war would result in a final quest reward. get you a golden compass and some 1007? player could use dialogue options to hire sub-contractors to do some exploring... or even possibly to lie to the quest giver 'bout areas not actual explored.  "yes, that is genuine walrus tusk scrimshaw i traded for when i was in the arctic mapping the coast of ____________." could use stealth or combat to clear maps. could find ways to get all sorta abilities to be relevant and make the quest more interesting.

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

That one is a good Idea.

 

am done with kill xp debate, 'cause more than you realize, it is moot. that being said, your recognition that the aforementioned would make a good quest is part o' the problem for all our ad hoc compromises. as between a well-developed quest that can be designed to provide multiple solutions v. an automatic grant of experience points, the quest/objective will always be having the capacity for greater options. as we noted above, you could design cartographer quest to allow for dialogue shortcuts or swindling, and kgambit gave intriguing reward possibilities 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yup it can if these actually become quests. I have a feeling they won't. Also I'm not debating Kill xp anymore, I'm coming up with objectives that I hope to see in the game that will make the play through more fulfilling. You can achieve all these things without quests as well with other forms of XP, but again it's moot. As it stands if the quests available in the game are all in the vein of what we have seen as their showcase demo, then I'm bored already. 

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

 

option 1) mechanically, we can see adding this idea as a quest... a cartographer's quest. am not certain what the reward would be. perhaps the lone achievement in the game could be Cartographer Completionist (aka slow death.) clear each map would result in some objective xp, and final reveal of all fog of war would result in a final quest reward. get you a golden compass and some 1007? player could use dialogue options to hire sub-contractors to do some exploring... or even possibly to lie to the quest giver 'bout areas not actual explored.  "yes, that is genuine walrus tusk scrimshaw i traded for when i was in the arctic mapping the coast of ____________." could use stealth or combat to clear maps. could find ways to get all sorta abilities to be relevant and make the quest more interesting.

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

That one is a good Idea.

 

am done with kill xp debate, 'cause more than you realize, it is moot. that being said, your recognition that the aforementioned would make a good quest is part o' the problem for all our ad hoc compromises. as between a well-developed quest that can be designed to provide multiple solutions v. an automatic grant of experience points, the quest/objective will always be having the capacity for greater options. as we noted above, you could design cartographer quest to allow for dialogue shortcuts or swindling, and kgambit gave intriguing reward possibilities 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yup it can if these actually become quests. I have a feeling they won't. Also I'm not debating Kill xp anymore, I'm coming up with objectives that I hope to see in the game that will make the play through more fulfilling. You can achieve all these things without quests as well with other forms of XP, but again it's moot. As it stands if the quests available in the game are all in the vein of what we have seen as their showcase demo, then I'm bored already. 

 

actually, the portion o' the beta we have were specifically used because it is insular and limited. the beta were chosen so it would not have far-reaching or extensive impact on the rest o' the game as a whole.  therefore, it should come as no surprise that the beta quests necessarily must be o' a similar insular and discrete nature if they is to be successfully offering rewards. the level o' complexity and depth for the beta were specifically chosen to be shallow. we thought that point were made clear. guess not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zansatsu]

actually, the portion o' the beta we have were specifically used because it is insular and limited. the beta were chosen so it would not have far-reaching or extensive impact on the rest o' the game as a whole.  therefore, it should come as no surprise that the beta quests necessarily must be o' a similar insular and discrete nature if they is to be successfully offering rewards. the level o' complexity and depth for the beta were specifically chosen to be shallow. we thought that point were made clear. guess not.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No argument there. I'm sure the main quest line will be very interesting. But they don't have any non spoiler side quests they could have showcased that actually had an interesting quest mechanic or story line? This was the most basic of basics.  This demo I'm assuming was meant to wet our appetite for what was to come. Maybe not.  All it showed me was same old same old. 

[Gromnir]

 

actually, the portion o' the beta we have were specifically used because it is insular and limited. the beta were chosen so it would not have far-reaching or extensive impact on the rest o' the game as a whole.  therefore, it should come as no surprise that the beta quests necessarily must be o' a similar insular and discrete nature if they is to be successfully offering rewards. the level o' complexity and depth for the beta were specifically chosen to be shallow. we thought that point were made clear. guess not.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No argument there. I'm sure the main quest line will be very interesting. But they don't have any non spoiler side quests they could have showcased that actually had an interesting quest mechanic or story line? This was the most basic of basics.  This demo I'm assuming was meant to wet our appetite for what was to come. Maybe not.  All it showed me was same old same old. 

 

odd. we never looked at the beta as a appetite wetting demo. after all, it ain't an actual demo, and it has a very limited release. you had to pay for the game to get the opportunity to beta, and they even cut off the opportunity for new folks to join in the beta with end of crowd funding. you already bought the game-- no need to wet appetite.  also, the game starts you off at level five in an insular locale. is very little introduction to the world, and as noted above, the quests is insular as well. if the developers were wetting appetite, we would expect graphic theatrics, and story development to get you involved in the world. the exact opposite is happening with the beta as the events o' the world, and the story o' PoE is being kept hidden. if this were a wet appetite excercise, we would expect a dozen partial started but unfinishable quests... y'know, to make us want the opportunity to finish'em. we would expect that in addition to the aforementioned story teases, we would also get gameplay teases that would compel the crpg junkies to want More. 

 

am knowing that there is much distrust o' developers, so when they explain stuff, people has a tendency to disbelieve. *shrug* nothing 'bout the beta suggests that the developers were trying to wet our appetite. it appears that the beta is what they claimed it were, and less. we got higher level characters so we could actual see and test a more useful spread o' abilities. obsidian said they wanted feedback so they could better develop talents, and is tough to give meaningful feedback about character builds when you only reach level three in an intro demo. developers specific said they didn't wanna do intro stuff to avoid possible spoilage. the beta is also useful for the developers to be doing hardware build bug hunting, but again, we gots characters with far more abilities, so there is simple more that is breakable. 'course, we thought this were a genuine beta wherein we would get useful chance to give feedback 'bout features. am thinking we were mislead a bit on that point as game is functional at feature lock and developers is gonna need work very hard simply to make 2014 release. nevertheless, the beta were never advertised as a appetite wetting demo-- quite the contrary. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Cantousent]

 

am admitting that awarding xp for clearing the fog of war appeals to us personally 'bout as much as does a nice heaping tablespoon of vegemite.

 

*shudder*

 

option 1) mechanically, we can see adding this idea as a quest... a cartographer's quest. am not certain what the reward would be. perhaps the lone achievement in the game could be Cartographer Completionist (aka slow death.) clear each map would result in some objective xp, and final reveal of all fog of war would result in a final quest reward. get you a golden compass and some 1007? player could use dialogue options to hire sub-contractors to do some exploring... or even possibly to lie to the quest giver 'bout areas not actual explored.  "yes, that is genuine walrus tusk scrimshaw i traded for when i was in the arctic mapping the coast of ____________." could use stealth or combat to clear maps. could find ways to get all sorta abilities to be relevant and make the quest more interesting.

I personally love this idea.  Just a minor tweak to an excellent idea is that I don't think explorer xp need be doled out for each map.  Folks whose only desire is kill XP want immediate gratification of XP reward desires.  I know I'll get some guff from some kill XP proponents on that, but I believe it's the driving force.  I've even said it's a good argument of sorts because it makes combat more visceral for folks if they're getting immediate rewards, it's just not a good enough argument to win the day.

 

However, folks who explore would, in my opinion, be more amenable to story and loot rewards.  Not even big loot rewards.  Explorer people are like goody two shoes types who go way out of their way to be the good guy in the game.  Yeah, they like to see some gameplay reward lovin' thrown their way from time to time, but story rewards and a pat on the back (or a condescending pat on the head) will have more impact.  I speak as one of these pathetic goody two shoes player types.

 

Also, I think explorer rewards for side quests make a lot of sense for these groups.  Some quests might not be readily apparent, but finding out that the super tough battle you just fought wasn't some random monster you found running around but you chanced upon the super Lionspider of dooooom and overcame it without foreknowledge!  That needs a log entry because, where I agree with Gromnir is that just getting XP in your log doesn't make any sense at all.  Even if you didn't know it was a 'quest' before-hand (which it clearly was) anything significant enough to yield XP should be significant enough to yield questesque lovin' in your journal.

 

I don't want to mislead folks.  I hate kill XP.  I don't mind XP awarded for killing, but I am completely against the mechanic that yields XP for wandering around killing things.  I think XP rewards should be significant and noteworthy events in the characters' lives.  I think Seari has a point about the balance issue, especially since it's one of the big reasons the designers cite for quest XP.  ...But they also care about the story and their artistic vision and anything *anything* that rewards some act will encourage the mass of players to engage in it.  From my perspective, they want you to be able to kill your way through the game as a choice, and it's less of a choice if it's one of your primary rewards.  That is to say, if you can sneak, talk, or fight your way past encounters, and you get a better reward for fighting past it, whatever your inclination, the reward will always be poking around somewhere in your considerations.  If you get the exact same reward for any of the three (or four or five or however many ways of getting past the encounter) then you chose fighting because, damn it, that's. how. you. roll!  External rewards for one thing or another cheapen player choice.