Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

[Infinitron]

Sarex: Of course. Atmosphere is in part a function of narrative immersion.
 
As for the system and its "uniformity", what Stun* sees as a betrayal of the Infinity Engine's values, I see as a glorious attempt to finally join together the class-based Infinity Engine/Baldur's Gate design philosophy and the classless, flexible Fallout-style design philosophy.

 

It's what we would have gotten if Black Isle had ever gotten their chance at developing a "big" fantasy RPG, and I for one can't wait to see how it ends up.

 

*(Of course, I have no idea what "non-combat roles" Stun is talking about - as if the IE games had any non-combat activity worth speaking of outside of some thieving abilities. I think what he really means is that in the IE games fighters had to be strong, wizards had to be smart, etc, all of which eventually maps into combat roles even if it's not combat directly.)

Edited September 5, 2014 by Infinitron

[Seari]

I guess I'm a bit biased, because I hate 3.5 ed and what they did to multiclassing. And I'm not saying 2nd ed is better or whatever, I like feats and all those good things.

[Zierry]

Seari: Still the first fourth of the game had some very nice combat, even strategically. You must keep in mind that they made the entire game in eight months, so it's a miracle really. Story-wise, options, branching, plot, there you had the gashing wounds in it here and there. It's still a very nice game, although more of a dungeon crawl, like ToEE (which is equally great for what it is).

How can you know? We could play only small part of game without piece of main story. I cant say anything about Baldurs Gate from plaing local quest in Ulgoth's Beard (without tower) with random premade companions. Non interctive demo of BG has terrible atmosphere. And combat is not what missing there.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Seari: Still the first fourth of the game had some very nice combat, even strategically. You must keep in mind that they made the entire game in eight months, so it's a miracle really. Story-wise, options, branching, plot, there you had the gashing wounds in it here and there. It's still a very nice game, although more of a dungeon crawl, like ToEE (which is equally great for what it is).

How can you know? We could play only small part of game without piece of main story. I cant say anything about Baldurs Gate from plaing local quest in Ulgoth's Beard (without tower) with random premade companions. Non interctive demo of BG has terrible atmosphere. And combat is not what missing there.

 

Come again? I'm afraid, I don't get your point.

[Seari]

 

 

Seari: Still the first fourth of the game had some very nice combat, even strategically. You must keep in mind that they made the entire game in eight months, so it's a miracle really. Story-wise, options, branching, plot, there you had the gashing wounds in it here and there. It's still a very nice game, although more of a dungeon crawl, like ToEE (which is equally great for what it is).

How can you know? We could play only small part of game without piece of main story. I cant say anything about Baldurs Gate from plaing local quest in Ulgoth's Beard (without tower) with random premade companions. Non interctive demo of BG has terrible atmosphere. And combat is not what missing there.

 

Come again? I'm afraid, I don't get your point.

 

...Gromnir is that you? Doesn't Gromnir roleplay an orc or whatever.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Seari

[bonarbill]

 

 

The IE games are RPGs that had unmatched party-based gameplay. And that party-based gameplay was neither limited to combat roles, nor was it watered down by the need for uniformity.

****ing this.

Hard to disagree with this perspective.

 

Also I fail to see hiw Helm qualifies as a troll. He makes salient observations and I haven't seen any personal attacks. He's allowed to have his opinion, but cheerleaders get easily confused when their biases are challenged and everyone who hurts their fanboy must be a troll?

 

The net game is the same: ignore him because you can't handle it or offer a cogent aegument, but don't fool yourself into thinking that's Helm's problem.

 

 

Then clearly haven't seen his posts around the forum.  He acts like a child 50% of the time.

 

And I have no reason get butthurt.  I can't even get the game to run at the moment,

Edited September 5, 2014 by bonarbill

[Zierry]

 

 

Seari: Still the first fourth of the game had some very nice combat, even strategically. You must keep in mind that they made the entire game in eight months, so it's a miracle really. Story-wise, options, branching, plot, there you had the gashing wounds in it here and there. It's still a very nice game, although more of a dungeon crawl, like ToEE (which is equally great for what it is).

 

How can you know? We could play only small part of game without piece of main story. I cant say anything about Baldurs Gate from plaing local quest in Ulgoth's Beard (without tower) with random premade companions. Non interctive demo of BG has terrible atmosphere. And combat is not what missing there.

Come again? I'm afraid, I don't get your point.

Sigh. My ogre english is not enough for this discusion.

[Marceror]

 

 

Seari: Still the first fourth of the game had some very nice combat, even strategically. You must keep in mind that they made the entire game in eight months, so it's a miracle really. Story-wise, options, branching, plot, there you had the gashing wounds in it here and there. It's still a very nice game, although more of a dungeon crawl, like ToEE (which is equally great for what it is).

How can you know? We could play only small part of game without piece of main story. I cant say anything about Baldurs Gate from plaing local quest in Ulgoth's Beard (without tower) with random premade companions. Non interctive demo of BG has terrible atmosphere. And combat is not what missing there.

 

Come again? I'm afraid, I don't get your point.

 

If I were to guess, Zierry is talking about the PoE beta demo, while you're talking about IWD2.

[Seari]

Sigh. My ogre english is not enough for this discusion.

 

Hahaha, cleary you're not Gromnir, you have a sense of humor.

 

You misunderstood IndiraLightfoot I think, he was talking about IWD2 and not PoE. I understand what you're trying to say, PoE is missing the atmosphere, combat isn't the only/main problem.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Seari

[IndiraLightfoot]

Zierry: Thanks to Marceror and Seari, I finally get it. Didn't mean to be cheeky. I literally didn't understand your post.

[Zierry]

 

Sigh. My ogre english is not enough for this discusion.

 

Hahaha, cleary you're not Gromnir, you have a sense of humor.

 

You misunderstood IndiraLightfoot I think, he was talking about IWD2 and not PoE. I understand what you're trying to say, PoE is missing the atmosphere, combat isn't the only/main problem.

 

Yes and realized it after posting comment. 

Locations and dungeons are beautiful (still need work with contrast, vanishing characters etc), quests and dialogs excelent, combat useble BUT ambients and music are not doing their job good. There is some kind of emptiness in it. Good for sleepy foggy hollow not for nice sunny village. Also missing voice of npc. Too bad they are probably expensive and OE cant afford it. 

[Immortalis]

 

 

 

The IE games are RPGs that had unmatched party-based gameplay. And that party-based gameplay was neither limited to combat roles, nor was it watered down by the need for uniformity.

****ing this.

Hard to disagree with this perspective.

 

Also I fail to see hiw Helm qualifies as a troll. He makes salient observations and I haven't seen any personal attacks. He's allowed to have his opinion, but cheerleaders get easily confused when their biases are challenged and everyone who hurts their fanboy must be a troll?

 

The net game is the same: ignore him because you can't handle it or offer a cogent aegument, but don't fool yourself into thinking that's Helm's problem.

 

 

Then clearly haven't seen his posts around the forum.  He acts like a child 50% of the time.

 

And I have no reason get butthurt.  I can't even get the game to run at the moment,

 

 

I wouldn't say Helm is the most polite person on this forum.. but he gets trashed on a lot and his response is usually snarky sarcasm in return.

 

I found the irony in you calling him a child and still after several edits of your post, you were barely able to spit out a proper sentence. I will assume (hope) english isn't your first language.

 

I wish "Bill Gate's Son" would stop liking every post that bashes Helm calling him a "troll" when that account is obviously a troll account.

[Seari]

Yes and realized it after posting comment. 

Locations and dungeons are beautiful (still need work with contrast, vanishing characters etc), quests and dialogs excelent, combat useble BUT ambients and music are not doing their job good. There is some kind of emptiness in it. Good for sleepy foggy hollow not for nice sunny village. Also missing voice of npc. Too bad they are probably expensive and OE cant afford it. 

 

Yeah I agree with most of your points, esp. the emptiness part. They will add voice overs for companions and player pc. Unless you mean fully voiced lines for all dialogue, that most certainly won't happen.

 

Edit: Also remember that this is a beta, lots of things still missing.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Seari

[Zierry]

 

Yes and realized it after posting comment. 

Locations and dungeons are beautiful (still need work with contrast, vanishing characters etc), quests and dialogs excelent, combat useble BUT ambients and music are not doing their job good. There is some kind of emptiness in it. Good for sleepy foggy hollow not for nice sunny village. Also missing voice of npc. Too bad they are probably expensive and OE cant afford it. 

 

Yeah I agree with most of your points, esp. the emptiness part. They will add voice overs for companions and player pc. Unless you mean fully voiced lines for all dialogue, that most certainly won't happen.

 

Edit: Also remember that this is a beta, lots of things still missing.

 

I mean every npc but not fully voiced dialoges. Just like Winthrop's "My old tavern's as clean as elven arse!". Maybe few most important story dialoges could be voiced or at least first sentence. I am worry it's not missing only in beta. Well i am not Xan i dont think this game is DOOOMED and hope is dying last.

[Seari]

I mean every npc but not fully voiced dialoges. Just like Winthrop's "My old tavern's as clean as elven arse!". Maybe few most important story dialoges could be voiced or at least first sentence. I am worry it's not missing only in beta. Well i am not Xan i dont think this game is DOOOMED and hope is dying last.

 

No idea, but I hope so.

[nipsen]

Finally caved and bought beta access as well. And really agree with the first post in the thread. It's not the saddest beta I've ever seen - but sorting out some of this stuff to the point where it's merely feels "raw" is going to take lots and lots of work.

 

Honestly would not be unhappy in any way if they delayed the release till next year - for example until after Dragon Age: All Over Again - and went through the.. obscene amount of absolute references that should never have been there in the first place, stocky animation playback, transparency effect problems, lack of moving objects in the scenery, lack of general feedback when playing, the mess of the spell effects, the haphazard UI implementation, etc.

 

But yes, good luck. Good luck indeed. The writing and the dialogue seems mostly very good, though. Even if we're missing dynamic escapes from the conversations, and half the quests seem bugged, and so on. But it's definitely true that a still-shot or a video of this doesn't do it justice. There are good elements here. Very good elements. Everything underneath other than the coding seems solid. But good grief. It's like looking at a pile of expensive porcelain dolls that fell down a bit too fast. Good looking pieces, but it's a mess, and it gives off the impression that something very nasty is going to happen once you start pulling the broken bits away.

[Captain Shrek]

They did also lay out in considerable detail what they felt constitute an "IE game spiritual successor." First in the initial pitch, then in the updates over the course of the campaign.

 

As I said, it's remarkable how little they've drifted from what they described there.

 

It is not reasonable to expect them to adhere to your personal interpretation of what the IE successor ought to be.

 

Being disappointed, feeling that they missed the mark, feeling that it's not fun, and so on is a different matter altogether. Helm isn't saying tha though. He is flat-out claiming this:

 

Obsidian is giving us something much different than what they promised.

 

That is a lot more than a subjective impression. It is also a lie.

Actually I heard a lot of contradictory opinion on this one. You sound very confident so i assume this is not ass-talk.

 

Can you supply quotes that explain to what extent they mean to emulate IE games beyond the "feels"?

[PrimeJunta]

Actually I heard a lot of contradictory opinion on this one. You sound very confident so i assume this is not ass-talk.

 

Can you supply quotes that explain to what extent they mean to emulate IE games beyond the "feels"?

 

Sure. Bolding the specifics.

 

"Project Eternity is an isometric, party-based computer RPG set in a new fantasy world developed by Obsidian Entertainment."

 

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

 

"Combat uses a tactical real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities is one of the keys to success. The world map is dotted with unique locations and wilderness ripe for exploration and questing. You’ll create your own character and collect companions along the way – taking him or her not just through this story, but, with your continued support, through future adventures. You will engage in dialogues that are deep, and offer many choices to determine the fate of you and your party. …and you'll experience a story that explores mature themes and presents you with complex, difficult choices to shape how your story plays out."

 

That was from the main pitch only. There's more in the updates. Check out #3 (game basics), #7 (non-combat abilities), #9 (modes), #15 (core four classes + cipher and barbarian), #18 (paladin and chanter), #24 (health/stamina, healing, death). I won't paste in quotes from there for now; check 'em out yourself.

[Captain Shrek]

I wonder what aspects of the Updates are actually similar to the IE games. The description you provide is just a wrapper for a lot of possible directions that has nothing whatsoever to do with IE games. So I am curious. I wish some one would sit down and make a real list of actual IE features (not just tags like RTwP which are not IE specific) that got into the beta. 

 

I say this as someone who HATED IE combat/encounters outside of spellcasting btw. 

[PrimeJunta]

That is true.

 

(Oh, and I forgot classes and ability scores. They did mention those too.)

 

Personally I don't think it's even possible to break down "the IE experience" into a feature list, especially as the IE games themselves were so diverse. PS:T was almost a JRPG/adventure game in isometric format, BG1 was all about exploration, BG2 was all about quests and wildly varied combat encounters plus massive scope, the IWD's were dungeon crawls.

 

I.e., beyond the specifics, they promised to deliver their interpretation of a spiritual successor to the IE games. That's all they could promise, really: they can't very well be beholden to someone else's. How closely their take meshes with any given player's remains to be seen.

[IndiraLightfoot]

That's true, PJ. However, there is this line from the KS, I don't have it here, where they specify it all, something like: "We'll take the best of the IE games, the story quality from PST, the combat from IWD2, and the exploring and freedom from the BG..." or something like it.

[PrimeJunta]

I quoted that line three posts up, Indira.

[IndiraLightfoot]

LOL: How on earth did I miss that? I tend to read most of the stuff here, bless me, but that one just escaped me. Well, there you go.

Edited September 5, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Gromnir]

That is true.

 

(Oh, and I forgot classes and ability scores. They did mention those too.)

 

Personally I don't think it's even possible to break down "the IE experience" into a feature list, especially as the IE games themselves were so diverse. PS:T was almost a JRPG/adventure game in isometric format, BG1 was all about exploration, BG2 was all about quests and wildly varied combat encounters plus massive scope, the IWD's were dungeon crawls.

 

I.e., beyond the specifics, they promised to deliver their interpretation of a spiritual successor to the IE games. That's all they could promise, really: they can't very well be beholden to someone else's. How closely their take meshes with any given player's remains to be seen.

it should also be obvious that given that PoE could not be an ad&d or d&d d20 game, many so-called ie feature would be off-limits to the obsidian developers. the fact that obsidian would need to develop a complete original rule system precluded the possibility of many features being identical. as much as ps:t was a different game than iwd, you had basic mechanical similarities due to using a variation o' the infinity engine. even where iwd2 complete changed things with d20 mechanics, it was still a d&d game and the d&d nomenclature that was part of bg1 was still present in iwd2. 

 

as part o' the initial kickstarter, we knew that obsidian was needing to start from scratch with its rule mechanics. sure, PoE would be an isometric 2d game with squad-based fantasy combat, but as soon as we knew that PoE could not be d&d and that a new rule system would be developed, any reasonable and rational person would be recognizing that many significant differences between the ie games and PoE would be necessary. hell, we lobbied for a classless rule system, but we assume that idea were rejected out-of-hand as it would be too different from the ie games.

 

oh, and the infinity engine is a +15 year old dog that gots more than a few fleas. as much as some folks loved the ie games, any developer attempting to recreate the "feel" o' the ie games would likely attempt to make improvements... as well as use a healthy k9 advantix II application to prevent the old ie cooties from infecting PoE-- thank goodness.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps "sure, PoE would be an isometric 2d game with squad-based fantasy combat,"  funny aside: in our first PoE beta combat, we immediate attempted to rotate the camera. we Knew that PoE were 2d isometric, but even so, we still attempted to rotate camera.  

Edited September 5, 2014 by Gromnir

[nipsen]

We really just can't do enough for old Yeller, can we..