Sensuki's Suggestions #013: Take out the trash in the Dyrford Crossing

[Sensuki]

Fellow Backer Justinian provided us with this thread earlier in the week, criticizing the encounter design in the Dyrford Crossing.

 

 

He has correctly identified four (of five) focal points in the area. There is also a couple of Swamp Lurkers or something blocking the way to a lootable corpse.

 

Currently the Wurmhunters, Spider/Ogre cave and the Skaen Temple entrance are connected to some quests, but the encounters with the Wood and Stone Beetles and the Wolves to the south are essentially Trash encounters. I particularly found the encounter with the Wolves in the ruins most uninteresting. There's no cool loot, the encounter is a walk in the park on Hard and required zero effort whatsoever and aside from collecting some crafting ingredients just feels like a waste of space in the map.

 

I also find it a bit strange that large Wood, Stone and Adra beetles just roam around freely on a road, but I'm not a designer of the world, so I've got no idea if that's commonplace in the Wilderness here. Just seems more natural to me that you would find Adra beetles near Adra and Stone Beetles in a quarry or underground.

 

Anyway I think it would be cool if the area with the wolves and ruins got some extra encounter design done to it to spruce up that section of the map. Rather than just wasting that section of the map with the cool Dyrford Ruins on some lame encounter with Wolves. 

The simplest thing that could be done is to add a narrative to the scene. Why are Wolves in the Ruins? Perhaps they are there for food, so they've attacked some unsuspecting travellers that were camping in the ruins. Don't know if this can be done because a 2D body or any additional objects into the scene would require a re-render of it. The area has also likely had a paint over? (not sure?) so that probably rules that out. Perhaps Obsidian can add a 3D body (or bodies) to the scene and give them some minor loot (one of them could be Chris Avellone). That way there's a reason for wolves camping out in a ruin rather than being off hunting wildlife or in a den.

The Lighthouse area of Baldur's Gate 1 also had some wolves in the ruins of the Lighthouse. These wolves however were related to a quest. A young boy had run inside the ruins to escape from the Wolves and his mother could be found on the road nearby. If you killed the wolves she would award you some XP. That was probably the only "unnatural" location of a Wolf in Baldur's Gate and it was related to a quest.

 

Another option would be to remove the Wolf encounter and put a neutral encounter here. A travelling merchant, some squatters. Another thing that would make sense is that since this structural location is located near an entrance to the Skaen Temple, have the ruins occupied by an encounter related to the Skaen Temple, or even the Ogre in the nearby cave. 

What do you guys think? Do you think the Wolf encounter in this level should be there? I think maybe the beetles need to stay, for the full game some kind of joke could be added in about the amount of backers they defeated, hahah. However that would manifest. Hiring an Adventurer could even be locked out by Rumbald until you've taken care of the Beetles!

[Immortalis]

Were you expecting narrative for every wildlife creature you run into? I bet if these encounters were a bit harder and rewarded something.. like kill -xp.. you would enjoy it more.. Just saying..

[Mayama]

Were you expecting narrative for every wildlife creature you run into? I bet if these encounters were a bit harder and rewarded something.. like kill -xp.. you would enjoy it more.. Just saying..

 

Narrative is maybee the wrong word, grounded in the world discripes it better. The corpse + lurkers tell you something, the wolfs + tower ruins too. The player can fill in the holes himself. It does not need to be complicated, like the wolfs just searched a place to hide from the wind. The beetles are kinda blant they are just their which is imo boring.

[Tartantyco]

Remember that this is a beta, and a lot of stuff has been added explicitly to give us stuff to do. They are also an obstacle on the way to accomplish your quest. You are also given the option of fighting the beetles or the wolves to get to your objective, and they require different approaches(You can also sneak past everything).

 

I do agree that encounters should be related to the world narrative, though.

[Sensuki]

Well if they do give the area another pass, my suggestions have been made. Feel free to add your own.

[Elerond]

I agree that there should be narrative reason for every encounter in the game. Which is why I would change beetles to bandits (as people spoke in town about bandits on the road [if I remember correctly])

 

And I think Sensuki's idea about bodies or maybe food hoard would make occurrence wolves look more natural. And I would like also know narrative reason why there are different type spiders in one nest.

[Osvir]

The Wurms fit in a way, but then the Swamp Lurkers? Maybe switch them to Wurms too, or Beetles/Spiders. The wolves I haven't come across but good points. The beetles on the road as you enter feel over-the-top. There's too many of them in my opinion, they should be fewer and perhaps a bit further away from the path/road. Or it could be more smaller ones in exchange for 1-2 big ones.

In Stormwall Gorge and Lions there fit in really well. That environment is a bit more open though.. I think the Pwgra should almost be inside, and perhaps the Druids would be outside? (As a warning/protectors/guardians of the entrance)

[PrimeJunta]

There actually was some cool loot near the wolves. Not sure if it was near enough, but it was there. Enter Scout Mode and you'll see.

 

I didn't find the map too jarring. I don't find it problematic that there's dangerous wildlife roaming around with no particular story role or reward for murdering them. If nothing else, it adds to the atmosphere, like those merrily bouncing deer but with teeth.

[Sensuki]

There actually was some cool loot near the wolves. Not sure if it was near enough, but it was there. Enter Scout Mode and you'll see.

 

I didn't find the map too jarring. I don't find it problematic that there's dangerous wildlife roaming around with no particular story role or reward for murdering them. If nothing else, it adds to the atmosphere, like those merrily bouncing deer but with teeth.

Haha that's funny. After I killed the Wolves I thought, now there's GOT to be some loot around here because there wouldn't be an encounter here otherwise, and I walked around the ruins in scouting mode. Didn't find anything though, I will go and have another look.

 

edit: Peridor ?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

 

There actually was some cool loot near the wolves. Not sure if it was near enough, but it was there. Enter Scout Mode and you'll see.

 

I didn't find the map too jarring. I don't find it problematic that there's dangerous wildlife roaming around with no particular story role or reward for murdering them. If nothing else, it adds to the atmosphere, like those merrily bouncing deer but with teeth.

Haha that's funny. After I killed the Wolves I thought, now there's GOT to be some loot around here because there wouldn't be an encounter here otherwise, and I walked around the ruins in scouting mode. Didn't find anything though, I will go and have another look.

 

 

It may have been in the other tower ruin a short ways from the wolves. Don't remember for certain.

[Sensuki]

Dw I found it.

 

Point still stands though.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[Tartantyco]

There is at least some loot in the tower ruin. It's in one of the bricks.

[Sensuki]

Yeah I found it. My point was more about the reason for the Wolves being there, it's just a random place for them to be.

[Tartantyco]

Yeah I found it. My point was more about the reason for the Wolves being there, it's just a random place for them to be.

 

Well, wolves are territorial and that's part of their territory. I mean, maybe they could have them roam, but other than that they don't really need a reason to be there in particular. They're wolves, they do wolf things. You don't have to go down there and bother them if you don't want to.

[Elerond]

 

Yeah I found it. My point was more about the reason for the Wolves being there, it's just a random place for them to be.

 

Well, wolves are territorial and that's part of their territory. I mean, maybe they could have them roam, but other than that they don't really need a reason to be there in particular. They're wolves, they do wolf things. You don't have to go down there and bother them if you don't want to.

 

 

I don't know if wolves in Eora are different from wolves of our world, but wolves in our world would avoid kith and even place so close of kith habitation if there isn't food for them there. But giving them narrative reason to be there is in my opinion quite easy by placing body/carcass/meat pack left by one of the cultist there, which would same time explain why wolves are there and why they attack player's party (as they are trying to drive them away from their catch).

 

It is minor detail, but it would make at least for me world feel more real.

[Sensuki]

My point exactly.

[Ink Blot]

I don't know if wolves in Eora are different from wolves of our world, but wolves in our world would avoid kith and even place so close of kith habitation if there isn't food for them there. But giving them narrative reason to be there is in my opinion quite easy by placing body/carcass/meat pack left by one of the cultist there, which would same time explain why wolves are there and why they attack player's party (as they are trying to drive them away from their catch).

 

It is minor detail, but it would make at least for me world feel more real.

 

Exactly. Throw a couple corpses in there and for loot maybe a bundle of camping supplies (the party encountered the tragic demise of travelers who thought they'd found a good site to make camp. After defeating the wolves, they manage to salvage enough camping supplies for one night's camp).

[Starwars]

For me, the point is more that this map feels more like a circus than anything else. It feels like you can barely move without running into something that wants to murder you. For me, it simply feels too crowded and/or it doesn't feel like there's enough walking space between the encounters. It feels really weird to me.

 

I understand that one wouldn't want to "waste space" but quiet periods also have a place in games like these, if nothing else for the build-up to something dangerous. Right now it feels more like a combat arena than something that would be considered a wilderness area (even in dangerous fantasy land).

[Shadenuat]

I'd clear all the roads from trash mobs entirely, except bandits and other critters that can benefit from roaming the roads in meaningful way, like quest NPCs - runners, scouts, farmers, tax collectors, and so on.

[Tartantyco]

Wolves were actually known to commonly raid villages and even towns during the middle ages. Like sneaking into Paris and dragging off children. Only with firearms and urbanization did wolves move away from human populations.

 

But I might be getting a bit too academic...

Edited August 27, 2014 by Tartantyco

[Helm]

They should just remove all of the trash mobs from the game, I have no idea what's up with this mini-game of walking around pointless encounters.

[archangel979]

Exploration in BG1 meant running into groups of Named NPCs or monsters and having cool fights vs them. Or running into a cave/crypt and finding some loot guarded by something.

Common enemies like wolves and such were boring to fight outside quests.

Only questless "wolf" encounter was the pack of different wolves led by vampire wolves and it was one of the most memorable low level encounters in the game as you would get destroyed if you didn't know how to handle it.

And the xp reward was nice.

Edited August 27, 2014 by archangel979

[Helm]

There is no exploration in this game, you must always do the bidding of villagers.

[Tartantyco]

Just ignore the troll, people.

[Helm]

Just ignore the troll, people.

But you don't get any XP for exploring in PoE? In Baldur's Gate I would get XP for exploring the world, now I don't get anything if I don't first get the quest from a farmer or peasant. 

 

Even Skyrim rewarded the player for exploration, and that game is a very simple RPG. Sad.

 

(BTW, there must be a lot of trolls around here, because I keep seeing you call them out.)

Edited August 27, 2014 by Helm