Sensuki's Suggestions #011: Backer Beta Version Review v257 bb

[Sensuki]

One of my favourite encounters is the Watcher's Keep Final Guardians. That was arguably the best fight in the series.

 

Nalmissra, The Huntress, Y'tossi, Amerilis Zauviir, Hive Mother and Xei Win Toh

[PrimeJunta]

It's funny, the Watcher's Keep never made much of an impression on me. I did go through it but I honestly can't even remember much of it. Wasn't there the Machine of Lum the Mad somewhere in there?

[Stun]

One of my favourite encounters is the Watcher's Keep Final Guardians. That was arguably the best fight in the series.

 

Nalmissra, The Huntress, Y'tossi, Amerilis Zauviir, Hive Mother and Xei Win Toh

Yep. And that's a perfect example. That fight is more fun than the Battle with Demogorgon just downstairs.

 

Also the Holy Avenger fight in IWD2 with Bane's Six Chosen.

 

You don't forget battles like that. You remember them forever

Edited August 27, 2014 by Stun

[IndiraLightfoot]

Indeed. They are the imprints of CRPG bliss. I also loved Durlag's Tower.

[Mayama]

The lichs in BG2 where one of the most anoying fights in the game because it was so easy to stumble upon their graves. Oh look a grave, BAM! "instant boss fight" with a high chance that your party is not strong enough to actually beat them without exploiting when you find them.

[Sensuki]

It's funny, the Watcher's Keep never made much of an impression on me. I did go through it but I honestly can't even remember much of it. Wasn't there the Machine of Lum the Mad somewhere in there?

Right, well I always remembered it as one of the Hardest fights in the game, and I replayed it last month and it was super fun.

 

You face off against a Maralith who's immune to most weapons, a Hive Mother, A demonic archer with some +4 bow, a Kensai dude with katanas, a High level cleric and a Demon with a 2H sword.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[Stun]

Indeed. They are the imprints of CRPG bliss. I also loved Durlag's Tower.

The chess match!

[Yonjuro]

 

I wish they'll lose the whole 'boss fight' concept. Have tough plot- and environment-appropriate enemies for sure, but not that "this is not even my final form" nonsense, hitpoint mountains you have to whittle down, collapse-the-temple-to-win, or complete immunities to bloody near everything. I hope Obsidian has grown beyond that.

 

That said, I don't mind immunities or near-immunities to some or even many abilities. It would be a bit underwhelming maybe if you could just knockdown Darth Vader and then proceed to kick him to death.

I always found the situations in the IE games where you face multiple solid adversaries instead of 1 giant baddie vs your team of 6 were more interesting. The group at the top of the Iron Throne headquarters in BG1 come to mind. They have a couple melee and a few casters. I think there are 5 or so in total.

 

 

 Yes. One thing that BG1 did really well was that there were so many interesting groups of enemies (and a lot of those fights were personal).

[IndiraLightfoot]

Durlag's Tower, for me, the first time around, was awesome! And tough! I had a hard time passing the guardians outside, IIRC. And inside, the hot Demonknight teaser start, the traps were deadly, so many things were in fact other things - illusions, fakes and dead-ends (pretty fantastic). Those doppelgangers sure fooled me! Everything I did in that tower felt like an accomplishment - every single step - it's one of the closest things I've had to a real PnP D&D session in a CRPG. The stories you got to unravel were top-notch.

 

EDIT: It's like - had that alone been a game at that time, I would have been pretty satisfied.

EDIT 2: It must have taken ages to design it, and that's just a fraction of that game's content. I'm still today in awe over how much detail that went into BG1 and BG2.

Edited August 27, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[PrimeJunta]

 

It's funny, the Watcher's Keep never made much of an impression on me. I did go through it but I honestly can't even remember much of it. Wasn't there the Machine of Lum the Mad somewhere in there?

Right, well I always remembered it as one of the Hardest fights in the game, and I replayed it last month and it was super fun.

 

You face off against a Maralith who's immune to most weapons, a Hive Mother, A demonic archer with some +4 bow, a Kensai dude with katanas, a High level cleric and a Demon with a 2H sword.

 

Riiight... yeah, I do remember that. It was a tough one.

 

I'm really wondering how come Watcher's Keep made so little impression. It may have been because it didn't have much connection to the story so I didn't really care for what's going on in there, and I couldn't switch to NetHack mode for it. Guess that outs me as a storyfag... although that shouldn't be a surprise considering how I've rhapsodized over PS:T.

[Stun]

I'm really wondering how come Watcher's Keep made so little impression. It may have been because it didn't have much connection to the story so I didn't really care for what's going on in there, and I couldn't switch to NetHack mode for it. Guess that outs me as a storyfag... although that shouldn't be a surprise considering how I've rhapsodized over PS:T.

Or maybe because Watcher's Keep wasn't very well designed? It was a supermarket aisle of unconnected atmospheres. Bioware was trying to Out-wow the Durlag's tower wow factor, so they sat down and tried to come up with "awesome" stuff to put in a 5 level tower without any regard to whether or not all this awesome stuff would make sense, thematically.

 

So in between Monster Manual 1's most awesome Demon Prince (Demogorgon!) and the DM Guide's most awesome Artifact (machine of Lum the Mad), they inserted 2 dragons, a demilich, a mindflayer base, a Githyanki campsite, a Chromatic Demon (whatever the hell that is), A Cambion Noble from Sigil, a level full of animated statues that had no story to them whatsoever, and then they tied it all together with an overarching narrative that by itself wasn't terribly interesting.

 

Still, I had loads of fun doing watcher's keep. It certainly never got repetitive! But Durlag's tower was a far better dungeon experience for me.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Stun

[Osvir]

You could have a ranged Knockdown, just reduce the total duration or something if using a ranged weapon.

Yes!

 

The Rogue's Crippling Attack functions both with a Ranged Weapon and a Melee Weapon, why should Knock Down?

 

Explanation Knock Down Arrow: The Fighter fires a blunt arrow that hits the target with such a force that they get knocked down.

 

Explanation Crippling Arrow: The Rogue fires an accurate arrow into the targets mobility aparatus (legs), causing them to logically slow down.

 

I believe the Crippling Attack (Ranged/Melee) does not do any damage already, neither does Knock Down if I am not completely wrong (or it does lesser damage). The Ranged attack for Knock Down could be the same, imo. Ranged variants could have less "Knock Down" duration perhaps?

[Sensuki]

Or you could just use SOUL POWAH

[Grotesque]

Building interiors are larger than the building itself seen from the outside. I don't remember is that was the case also in BG1 and 2 but it annoys the hell out of me.

 

Also seeing a secret door pressing tab is beyond stupid. What is the point of being secret if you can highlight it by pressing a button?

Maybe that door you discover is via a scripted interaction. What is the purpose then of that interaction and status checking (perception or whatever) ?

 

"Party models" fading in the background is a problem that applies also to enemies.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Grotesque

[PrimeJunta]

(1) Very much the case in the BG's (and all the IE games) also. 

(2) I believe the tab-highlighting secret door is a bug. Normally you discover secrets by going into scouting mode and poking around. There are some that don't follow this. They show up with a pink outline.

[Sensuki]

Yeah NCarver said that it is actually not intended.

[archangel979]

Sensuki I love the effort you give for PoE.

We would love someone like you on WL2 boards to tell the devs so directly what is what.

[Sensuki]

I have posted on the Wasteland 2 forums many times before. Brother None didn't necessarily agree with my critiques, so I stopped bothering really. The WL2 Producers were also pretty actively defensive about bad design decisions in the RPGCodex mega thread as well.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

After release of WL2 I hope to see a impression video or suggestion video from you

They said they would have post release support and are open to suggestions.

[Sensuki]

I'm not a super-duper Fallout fan (Fallout 1 and 2 are great games though) and I never played the original Wasteland, so I think the people who played those are the people that should be doing the suggestions etc.

 

Whereas the Infinity Engine games are my favourite style of RPG. Baldur's Gate was one of the first games I got when I got my own computer in 1998 along with Age of Empires 2.

[archangel979]

Well the game is more like Fallout 1/2 than Wasteland so Fallout 1/2 fans are more than welcome.

 

I also played Bg1 before Fallout 1 but now I am super excited for both these games and have supported both (and Grim Dawn that you mentioned here and there).

[crackwise]

Very useful suggestions Sensuki, I hope developers take them into account! One thing I really don't like visually (and also from RP perspective) is the annoying "weapons always out (unsheathed)" situation. This is not a gamebreaking issue, but I don't find it realistic how the player characters have their weapons drawn all the time. 

 

It would be nice to have the weapons sheathed in towns and they are drawn only in combat (or outside the towns). One handed weapons and bucklers should realistically be strapped on the sides (sheathed in the scabbard in the case of a sword). Larger shields can be strapped on to the back. Two handed weapons which are too big to strap on the body can be held by the characters on their shoulders.

 

It doesn't make sense talking to civil people with sticking your sword up to their noses! (not unless you are trying to intimidate them )

Edited August 27, 2014 by crackwise

[Guest Guest01]

Thank You, Sensuki! Your analysis is so comprehensive and thorough, they should hire you. I can't help but second you on the following and hope the devs will listen.

Portraits

• In their current state, the portraits are unacceptable. Baldur's Gate II did portraits better. If PoE is going to be the 2014 spiritual successor to the IE games, the portraits need to be more coherent/uniform. Have the portrait artists conform to one style and really abide by it.
• There also needs to be a lot more portraits. Forcing people to browse deviantART for portraits to import can't be the standard solution. The game needs to offer a decent amount of portraits for every race/gender/class combination.

​

Characters and Environment

• The party formations are too wide. Baldur's Gate II did this better. Decrease the spacing between party members.
• The character to map size ratio is off. Baldur's Gate II did this better. Having the characters just mow through the map really does ruin the pacing in exploration.
• The game needs weather effects like rain and snow. Baldur's Gate II did this better.
• Splitting the party should be possible. Baldur's Gate II did this better. The player needs to be able to send one character to a blacksmith while others remain in a tavern.
• Ambient noises need more variation. Baldur's Gate II did this better.

 

Character animations

• Characters need more idle animations. Baldur's Gate II did this better; the characters would really look around and stretch etc.

 

UI

• The location of the combat log is inappropriate. Baldur's Gate II did this better. Make the combat log a central element of the UI.
• The Stealth button stealthing all the characters is wrong. Baldur's Gate II did this better.
• The Character marker feedback needs to be more intuitive. Baldur's Gate II did this better. The game needs a slider to control when the ellipsoid markers are rendered under characters.
• The UI needs to be uniform across all the different screens and elements. Baldur's Gate II did this better.
• The UI size is inadequate; 720p inventory screen is not good enough. These UI elements need to be rendered in higher resolutions.
• The UI needs mouseover tooltips for various values.

 

Items and looting

• The itemization is bland; items lack uniqueness. Baldur's Gate II did this better; Flail of the Ages, Celestial Fury, Daystar, Mace of Disruption, Belm, Kundane, Carsomyr, Crom Faeyr...
• Looting lacks WYSIWYG. Baldur's Gate II did this better. Characters need to drop what they have equipped.

 

Classes

• Many of the classes lack versatility; they feel like diluted versions of their IE ancestors.

 

Music

[Mayama]

• The game needs weather effects like rain and snow. Baldur's Gate II did this better.

You can see rain in the official trailer

[remiel005]

I'd like to start off by thanking Sensuki for all the time and effort he has put into quality feedback for this game.  I think it is passion like that driving next generations of classic games.

 

I'll reference the video as much as possible and apologize now if some of the points I'm bringing up are obvious to others or already discussed in other threads.

The first thing I'd like to address is weapon/spell speeds and how they affect interrupt.  In the IE games each spell and weapon was assigned a number which represented how quickly an item would go in a given round.  For example, this allowed me to utilize quick spells such as magic missile to interrupt other casters.  I feel like some of the interrupt mechanics would be fixed if they allowed the duration of the interrupt reset to directly correspond with the speed of the weapon.  A bow/dagger causing an immediate cycle of the animation where as a greatsword/blunderbus would cause a 2 second delay or such.  I think also assigning specific numbers would help instead of listing average as a speed - which is what every weapon I've found in the game has said.  I also think the flow of combat speeds and rounds was more intuitive for players.

I love the idea of folding deflection into the attributes, specifically under dexterity.  I think combining accuracy with interruption in perception might balance out the mathematical weaknesses of both dex and perception.  I feel like a lot of classes right now when not set up defensively cannot take any hits.  In IE games some classes took hits better than the others based on progression, but I don't recall there being as big a disparity outside of the first few levels.  I could see recovery time being an option but only if I had any idea on how the pacing is intended in combat(goes back to weapon/spell speeds for me/no round system).  I'm still very lost on what resolve could both reasonably function as in combat and provide a level of balance... maybe player buffs/enemy debuff strengths?

 

I think it is interesting that you referenced Dragon Age at one point.  I think that even though it is a different engine, in a lot of ways it is a spiritual successor to the same games.  My biggest thing is I feel like the spatial reasoning of enemies in combat was MUCH better.  They would move into spaces that would be reasonable to fight in similar to what a lot of pnp games have done with a grid system.  I was really hoping the cluster f*** feel of IE games would be fixed in this game with clever use of enemy AI and improved mechanics, but so far beta hasn't shown me this.

 

I very much agree with you on the core classes:

 

The current fighter, both BB and any I have made, is limited to ability sets that make them melee damage takers.  Using the current party make-up I have not been able to use the BB fighter any other way without significant resource cost to the rest of the party if not tpk.  You're right when you say that IE games let you have the survivability class of the fighter with the different weapon choices of placement.  Giving a fighter boots of speed and a dagger could rock a caster with just auto-attack and not feel boring while the sword and shield fighter could use the environment to bottleneck enemies better than what the engagement system offers.

 

I've done some other builds with the wizard that I think could be good.  But I run into a lot of targeting issues or the aoe/current state of combat issues.  I think a melee wizard would be awesome, but they run into the same issue of most of their spells being combat based.  By the time I set up the vampiric staff and defense buffs the battle is almost over.  Not to mention these are per/rest abilities that last a minute real time.  Many of the defense spells in the IE games lasted entire dungeons real time.

 

The priests I not only think are dull but I think way under-powered.  In IE games they added to the survivability of entire dungeon delves and exploration as well as resurrection options.  Now they can do heals on a quickly regenerating resource.  This makes most of their spells only helpful in combat and even then, trumped by individual class abilities.  A barbarian has a HoT that is per/encounter and heals as much as the third level priest ability.  A paladin's lay on hands also has a HoT effect that makes it, in many ways, better than priest heals.  Their wards can be very nice offensive spells since you can pre-set them where your fighter will be and they don't have friendly fire(unlike the wizard spells).

 

The rogue I would say is lost without the non-combat advantageous of previous games.  You felt the lack of a thief in all the other games every time you missed out on a chest or got blasted over and over by traps.  They weren't a huge combat staple unless you could buff them correctly but could be decent wherever you put them.  Again, it is a class where auto attack wasn't a bad thing.  I've straight up not used the rogue in PE battles and not noticed a real difference in damage output.  This is another area where I feel like giving the numerical values would help players a lot in knowing how to fully utilize the class.  Just saying any status ailment allows a rogue to do more damage isn't very helpful.

 

I was wondering if you could elaborate on your monk experience some.  When I played as a monk I found myself just auto-attacking if I was using the BB fighter correctly.  This meant all of those wound abilities were lost.

 

You also mentioned playing the cipher a lot, but vague on details.  I found the cipher abilities all over the place.  Some of the damage dealing abilities are worthless while some of the others do insane amounts of damage.  The name eludes me, but the single target 'soul burn' third level ability comes to mind.  It did 40 damage a second for 15 seconds - or there about.  They just seem to have very few abilities and only a few you use over and over out of what you can select.

 

I understand if you don't mention the classes much since they have stated many of the numeric values, talents, etc are in flux.  I was just wondering your opinion on what you've played.

 

Something you didn't mention, that I've wondered what other people of thought about is involving the scout mode.  Does it bug anyone else that the enemies perception is circle-based and not cone-based from point of view.

Edited August 28, 2014 by remiel005