Ranged versus Melee

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

actually, bg were ridiculous broken in favor o' ranged. iwd, at the minimum, made adjustments to grandmastery and ranged weapons. one o' the more ridiculous bg2  board battles were the fight to save ranged combat efficacy.

IWD1 Rangers using bows were more broken than anything in BG1 IMO

 

disagree. bg1 excessive bow powha was a topic discussed on the iwd boards as a matter o' fact.  a bg1 fighter with grandmastery in bows would make any iwd ranger build look like a child wielding one of those plastic toy bows with the suction-cup arrows. the howls o' anguish that inexplicably rose up from the bg bow fans were defeaning when they understood that bis were nerfing bows.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

At least you could have your fighter specialize in bows in those games...

 

ask obsidian to include a bow specialization talent. the developers has admitted that their current talent list is less than complete. particular weapon specializations does not strike us as an unreasonable talent request, and even if it were unreasonable you could still ask for bow specialization... or firearms specialization, or camping proficiency that would double camp supply usefulness, or Racial Enemy: Tribbles. is there tribbles in PoE? who cares?

 

am genuine hopeful that talents provide genuine differentiation and customization.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

ps we thinks only a jackarse would choose the camping supplies talent we suggested, but no doubt some Role-Play purist would get use outta it.

[GreyFox]

 

 

 

 

actually, bg were ridiculous broken in favor o' ranged. iwd, at the minimum, made adjustments to grandmastery and ranged weapons. one o' the more ridiculous bg2  board battles were the fight to save ranged combat efficacy.

IWD1 Rangers using bows were more broken than anything in BG1 IMO

 

disagree. bg1 excessive bow powha was a topic discussed on the iwd boards as a matter o' fact.  a bg1 fighter with grandmastery in bows would make any iwd ranger build look like a child wielding one of those plastic toy bows with the suction-cup arrows. the howls o' anguish that inexplicably rose up from the bg bow fans were defeaning when they understood that bis were nerfing bows.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

At least you could have your fighter specialize in bows in those games...

 

ask obsidian to include a bow specialization talent. the developers has admitted that their current talent list is less than complete. particular weapon specializations does not strike us as an unreasonable talent request, and even if it were unreasonable you could still ask for bow specialization... or firearms specialization, or camping proficiency that would double camp supply usefulness, or Racial Enemy: Tribbles. is there tribbles in PoE? who cares?

 

am genuine hopeful that talents provide genuine differentiation and customization.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

ps we thinks only a jackarse would choose the camping supplies talent we suggested, but no doubt some Role-Play purist would get use outta it.

 

 

LOL

 

Indeed....hope

[Valorian]

I'll point out that talents are available at level 3, 6, 9 and 12; for a total of 4 talents.

By the time I add some customization spice to my character through talents it will be The End. 

[Lephys]

You're right, it's more a matter of being able to exploit the AI by moving your character away from the predator indefinitely, which wouldn't be possible with some kind of exhaustion mechanic.

Well, as a supplement on that note... what if there was a default "you suck really bat at taking a shot immediately after hustling somewhere" modifier on ranged attacks. I dunno, something like -20% to accuracy, ticking down by 5% each second? Obviously those numbers could be changed, as I've just whipped them out of thin air. But, talents/stats could possibly affect that.

 

Or something of that nature. I realize that something affecting movement speed would still be necessary, probably. But, in the interest of mechanical tweaks that could make "I can just run around and shoot you all day without a care in the world" impractical, I thought I'd share.

[bigsun123]

PART 1)

 

Reduce the impact of might and dexterity on all ranged attacks.

 

PART 2) 

 

Resolve gets another component (on top of concentration), useful for everyone: Morale.

 

PART 3)

 

Constitution.  I suggest adding a mechanic called Exhaustion (or Stamina, if stamina gets renamed to endurance).

 

I like Part 1, it seems to make sense and could reduce the affect of Might as a stat, which may still be an issue.  Part 2 seems good as well, I remember in BG I hated Khalid so much for his cowardly behavior and appreciated Minsc becoming more enraged as they broke morale, it seemed to really flesh out their personalities.  Part 3 people have mentioned as possibly being more complicated and harder to implement, and I'd have to agree.

 

 

But might makes a huge difference in ranged attacks in real life, so this is totally realistic!! You know how gangsta gunmen shoot? This is actually for a good reason, because turning the gun on its side and "throwing" the bullets allows you to project your physical strength into the shot, giving it more power. XD

 

Seriously though, in most RPGs, ranged attacks are ridiculously underpowered - you can hit a fly from 100 yards away but you need to shoot it 8 times before it dies. I'd rather see ranged attacks more effective but less easy to hit, especially at longer ranges or when the target is in melee - have you ever tried to shoot somebody who is in a fight in Mount and Blade? It can be done but it's not easy.

 

This is a very good point.  In a more simulation-like approach, I'd be very wary of shooting at something that was engaged with one of my allies if I wasn't sure about possible friendly fire.  So because of this, I thought of a suggestion:

 

Could ranged weapons be balanced by having them function like beam spells rather than automatically hitting enemies even through your allies?

 

1. Ease of implementation - As far as I'm aware there are already wizard spells that function like this, such as the Ray of Fire  and Creating Necrotic Lance (level 2).  Thus a new mechanic would not need to be coded, but simply adapted to trigger for a standard attack instead of a spell.
2. Keep Ranged Damage at a Significant Level - Instead of simply reducing the damage of ranged weapons so you get the invincible fly scenario, you can keep a large chunk of damage but make it more strategic to use ranged attacks.  You would have to spend more time moving into a good position, and essentially flanking opponents being engaged in order to minimize your chances of hitting an ally for significant damage.  This means you can't get as many high damage attacks in except for in the start of battle, or if you are very well positioned.
3. Encourage more Melee or Spells - By making it harder to land a clean shot, you make it more advantageous for pure ranged characters to need to move in to close range, so they will have to consider using armor and not dumping Constitution.  Or, they will have to focus on spells and other abilities which can somehow magically avoid hitting your allies.

 

 

 

A morale system would be nice, even a rudimentary one, but it should manifest as morale breaking and enemies running away

 

Hunting enemies running scared halfway across the map was never any fun when it happened in IE, no enemies running away please it's too annoying.

 

 

This actually wouldn't be so bad, seeing as the kill xp option has been pretty much finalized I'd count enemies running away as a win, as they'd no longer be damaging my party for no benefit.  You have just as much reason to chase down a giant beetle as it does to keep attacking you after it's entire colony has been chopped to bits.  I'd actually like this a lot as it would seem to be more in character, unless you're playing the Terminex man.

[PrimeJunta]

Hunting enemies running scared halfway across the map was never any fun when it happened in IE, no enemies running away please it's too annoying.

 

Good thing in P:E there's no reason you'd want to do that, unless you thought they carried really good loot of course.

[Elerond]

 

Hunting enemies running scared halfway across the map was never any fun when it happened in IE, no enemies running away please it's too annoying.

 

Good thing in P:E there's no reason you'd want to do that, unless you thought they carried really good loot of course.

 

 

Except if it has same issue as IE games that combat don't end before all fleeing enemies are dead, which is only reason why I hunted fleeing gibberlings or xvarts down.

[Failion]

icewind dale was the infinity engine game where u can make the most op archer. so many archer oriented magical items in the game that give you extra attacks. Turns your archer into a machine gun that puts out sick damage. If you can have 6 of them in a party fully geared kill everything in seconds.

[konst3d]

I love how DnD done with this issue - you apply your STR to to-hit & damage. With ranged you apply your DEX to to-hit, but not to damage. And there are some bows that allow you to apply some small amount of STR to damage.

So in the end, melee characters do more damage, ranged do less damage but from the safe distance and more flexible in general - you can attack these casters hiding behind the enemy fighters, interrupt his spells, etc...

Done.

Why to fix things that weren't broken?

[J.E. Sawyer]

In A/D&D people eventually got magical composite bows. Even if they didn't, 2nd Ed. grants bow specialists the Point Blank range category that explicitly allows them to add Strength bonuses to damage (and the +2 to hit on top of that).  Until 4E, their bonus damage also tended to spiral out of control since you could combine weapon and ammo bonuses with everything else.

 

Dave is implementing smarter targeting AI right now which should help with the feelings of overall immunity for the back ranks.  That said, I've heard mixed things about ranged characters.  Some posters state that bows are terrible (which presumably also means that implements are terrible) due to DT.  Are crossbows/arbalests and guns the powerhouses?

[Sensuki]

Relative to bows, Arbalests and Guns are awesome. I have mainly used the Arbalest and there's zero reason to use any of the lower damage ranged weapons.

 

This is due to DT. I'm not sure how the damage values have been balanced, but a 20% increase in speed is only the same as a 20% increase in damage at 0 DT, at 1DT, the 20% increase in speed falls off because it is now opposing DT 20% more of the time than the 20% damage is. This formula scales with every point of DT as well, so as DT gets higher and higher, pure damage outshines attack speed assuming their DPS at 0 DT is the same.

 

You said you have reduced the damage of bows, likely due to bows being OP in D&D, well it's having quite a negative effect combined with the DT system.

 

This issue also applies to melee weapons. There is not really a reason to use 1H Normal or 1H Fast weapons except Stilettos and Maces (due to the -5 DT) because the DPS is balanced to be roughly the same against 0 DT. I avoid using anything other than two-handers unless I don't have enough two-handed weapons.

 

You'll probably need to alter the damage ranges for melee weapon categories so that there's a quadratic scale of efficacy for all three groups.

 

If you're interested I have a series of videos fighting the Dyrford Crossing beetles on Hard in this thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68242-the-insane-beta-battles-crossing/

 

My first video is pretty nooby, but I get better as I go, and in the second video I switch out the Arbalest onto my Rogue.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shadenuat]

70-100 dmg crits with guns, 50 dmg sneak attacks with arbalests, no positioning required, no ammo required. Bows do some crappy grazes.

At least give us poisoned arrows for bows or somethin.

[Gromnir]

magic ammo were an issue with d&d and the ie games

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68032-no-arrows-good-thing-or-bad/?p=1497056

 

'course, we don't have such ammo in PoE, so that ain't an issue.

 

honestly, the combat logs is so brief that we cannot tell what the relative damage outputs are. we use bows for interrupting, and we don't know when/if/how interrupting is working.  guns throw up very obvious large damages that are startling big compared to bows, but over the course o' a long battle does the numbers even out? am suspecting it is more difficult to interrupt a bow user, and we know our gun users have been interrupted during long reloads. this is another case in which the brevity o' the combat logs make it difficult to be certain about relative combat efficacy.

 

oh, and seriously, we need some better notion o' how interrupts work and is defended against... and we would like to be able to recognize when a successful interrupt occurs.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps inability to recognize when we successful interrupt is an example o' our biggest current complaint with combat. we like that PoE combat is multi-layered and complex, but at the same time, we frequent feel a bit lost as to what is actual happening. we use buffs and abilities mainly 'cause the descriptions o' such abilities sounds impressive, but we often have little notion as to whether or not such abilities are efficacious or how efficacious. is also difficult to tell which friends or foes is affected by buffs and debuffs. we see some numbers that don't necessarily make obvious sense in the combat logs. is buffs and debuffs adjusting numbers? possibly, but we can rare tell which beetle, spider or guard is affected by a buff or debuff. 

 

there is much happening in PoE combat... is good that PoE is complex. heck, if this were a turn-based game, with turn-based mechanics, am certain that we could easily make sense o' it all. 'course tb would probable make combat soul-numbing slow at times too.  in any event, PoE is not tb, and so it is frequent very difficult to figure out wth is happening given the brevity o' combat logs and seeming lack o' transparency with certain mechanics.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Gromnir

[J.E. Sawyer]

Gromnir, just to make sure, are you hovering on the combat log entries to expand out the calculations?  If so, what additional information do you think is missing?

[Sensuki]

Interrupt rolls?

Edited September 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

How and what that soak up damage:

Something like "Monster ZZ's DT, aura and spell effect soaked up XX damage of Party Member YY's slashing attack with a long sword" (perhaps some skill in Lore is needed for this kind of detailed info?) 

[Valorian]

 Some posters state that bows are terrible (which presumably also means that implements are terrible) due to DT.  Are crossbows/arbalests and guns the powerhouses?

 

Bows are not terrible (compared to melee weapons), but I believe that colossal-damage-per-hit weapons need to be toned down, including the powerhouses you mentioned and their melee counterparts.

 

They laugh at DT and due to the way on-hit effects work in PoE (scaled in relation to base weapon speed) they're good for that too.

[Sensuki]

They are terrible damage wise, the mathematics says so. However that Deep Wounds archer guy makes good benefit of his bow - that is quite literally the only reason you would use one.

 

They're not bad for Interrupts either I suppose.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Gfted1]

 

 

Hunting enemies running scared halfway across the map was never any fun when it happened in IE, no enemies running away please it's too annoying.

 

Good thing in P:E there's no reason you'd want to do that, unless you thought they carried really good loot of course.

 

 

Except if it has same issue as IE games that combat don't end before all fleeing enemies are dead, which is only reason why I hunted fleeing gibberlings or xvarts down.

 

 

Or if that fleeing enemy is part of the quest.

 

Also, +1 for Camping Supply talent.

[Gromnir]

Gromnir, just to make sure, are you hovering on the combat log entries to expand out the calculations?  If so, what additional information do you think is missing?

interrupts are missing for one thing. the combat logs is also extreme brief, so while we can see one attack by every combatant in a melee, that don't translate to useful combat feedback. as noted above, a single firearm blast is doing more damage than a single arrow hit, so we cannot compare overall combat efficacy o' bows v. guns without doing some quirky number crunching and extrapolating. we also can see deflection and accuracy numbers, but frequently those numbers... change. on one attack our accuracy may be 53. on another it will be 49. ok, we got the numbers, but the numbers don't tell us the why we need to make sense of combat.  other numbers is similarly peculiar. give us all the numbers is nice, but we don't always have a cause to tie those numbers to. we can replay PoE later and give specific examples if that will help. the numbers ain't the problem... or they might be. honestly, we don't know if the numbers is problematic 'cause we typical is guessing 'bout the causes attached to numbers that do not meet our expectations. 

[Valorian]

They are terrible damage wise, the mathematics says so. However that Deep Wounds archer guy makes good benefit of his bow - that is quite literally the only reason you would use one.

 

They're not bad for Interrupts either I suppose.

 

Does your math take into account them being ranged weapons and the advantages that come with it?

[Sensuki]

Compared to a Crossbow, Arbalest or Guns - yep.

Edit, this is one of the graphs we're using in our paper (made by Matt516) - but the same deal applies.
 

 

Pretend the red line is a higher damage, slower weapon and that the green line is a lower damage, faster weapon. Assume they have the same DPS. Now this chart only scales to values of +30% damage and +30% speed. A Hunting Bow does 9-16 damage, an Arbalest does 30-50 ... yeah that's a lot more right, over 200% 

 

Imagine this chart scaling out to the value of 200%

 

and you would have a somewhat (but not quite) accurate answer assuming that a Hunting Bow and Arbalest are supposed to have the same DPS at 0 DT.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Elerond]

I think that arbalests, arquebuses and that blunderbuss from pig farmer Rumbald (Lead Spitter with its doubled damage) have currently significant advantage against other ranged weapons especially against hunting and war bows how effective they are against everything, because they do consistently more damage during fights. I don't feel that they are necessary overpowered, but that other weapon choices are underpowered against enemies that we fight in the beta.

[Gfted1]

Werent guns supposed to be more powerful than bows? I thought that's what justified the long reload.

[Valorian]

Compared to a Crossbow, Arbalest or Guns - yep.

 

Well, that doesn't mean that bows are terrible weapons... it could mean that crossbows, arbalests and guns are too good.