The real reasons combat in PoE feels like such a clusterf**k

[Andhaira]

After some analysis and introspection I have come to understand the main reasons combat is so wonky, rushed and feels so unbalanced in PoE I am ofcourse taking into account that this is the first beta version. Things are supposed to be wonky. But aside from that, there are fundamental issues in the system which I do not think anyone has gone over on these forums:

 

1) One of the main inspirations for PoE is D&D 4e. This is apparent to anyone who has read and played D&D 4e. The per encounter powers are a direct influence of that system. In fact, all powers/special abilities for non casters are directly derived from D&D 4e, and much of the spells for spell casters are based on a mix of structure in D&D 4e and previous D&D versions (including the version used in the IE games)

 

This is not a bad thing. D&D 4e was desinged to translate well into a computer game, specifically a MMO, because HASBRO had given all it's subsidiaries a target of $100M of sales, including D&D. The only way a pnp game like D&D would be able to meet this is via a MMO. This has been directly related by WOTC desingers. I personally am not a fan of MMOs, like many true crpg and tabletop pnp rpg players, as they are souleless games. However, when playing D&D 4e even I could tell this would make a fantastic turnbased computer game.

 

Turnbased being the key word here.

 

Fast forward to PoE. A decision was made to use a derivative of the 4e ruleset mixed with Josh's own take on various things like Attributes and Skills. A decision was also taken to make the game RTwP. Finally, a horrible decision was made NOT to have rounds in combat, but instead base combat 'turns' on various other factors. This is where it all starts unravelling.

 

4e is not meant to be played in Real Time, due to the large number of abilities available per class. The IE games got away with it because non spell casters had limited options in battle, very limited. Mostly, they could just swing and attack. That's it. Even spellcasters could only cast 1 spell per round, after casting that spell there was a delay, even if you didn't use the pause function, The delay was due to six seconds not having passed yet, as six seconds consitute a single round.

 

In PoE not only are there a ton more of abilities per class, there are no real rounds. Heck, spellcasters like Wizards have the shortest 'cooldown' inbetween spellcasting. When you cast a spell, you can almost immediately cast another! So you quickly mash down on pause to issue more commands to your wizard/spellcasters. If you are not pausing, you are going to get scr***d. Then you have all your other non spellcasters, who have their own abilities. Most of them you have to use otherwise your pc is near useless. The rogue is a good example, you can't just direct the rogue to target an enemy then forget about him while he whacks it to death. You have to keep micromanaging his special rogue abilities, and make sure he is flanking.

 

So what am I saying? I am saying that everything else aside, the first step to fixing combat is to bring back rounds. Forget this new experiment in keying cooldowns over factors like armor/weapons etc. It's a good idea in theory, but this is not the game to be experimenting with something like this. It is better instead to go back to something that has worked for nearly 40 years and has been playtested to death during that time. A six second delay between all actions/attacks/spellcasting will make combat much more managable, pause or no pause.

 

The only other option is to make the game turnbased. I myself prefer turnbased games, but I don't think that is feasible at this point because it might be seen as a betrayal by backers who preferred the IE games' RTwP system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

If possible, I'd love to try out the same systems in turn-based format. I don't how realistic that wish is though. Still, it should be possible to create some sort of turns that regulate combats, and sneak checks, persistent damage from stuff like bleeding etc. I've also always liked initiative paired with weapon speed in a turns system.

[Fearabbit]

The conspiracy theory wasn't really necessary for the point you were making.

"Rounds should be longer" is a fair criticism, but "Rounds currently are super short because Hasbro and Obsidian want to turn RPGs into MMOs" just makes you sound like a raving madman. (Also without it your post would've been so much shorter.)

 

That said. I haven't played the beta, but I tend to agree. I think NWN and KotOR handled this type of combat pretty well, with a command queue (!) and with pretty long rounds so that you didn't always have to pause and didn't feel quite as rushed and stressed.

[Mayama]

 

In PoE not only are there a ton more of abilities per class, there are no real rounds. Heck, spellcasters like Wizards have the shortest 'cooldown' inbetween spellcasting. When you cast a spell, you can almost immediately cast another! So you quickly mash down on pause to issue more commands to your wizard/spellcasters

What are you talking about my BB Wiizard and BB Priest pauses around 6 seconds between spells on normal speed. Its not possible to cast faster. I actually jumped into the game right now to test it because I was sure that your statement is wrong. Their are also rounds, individual rounds for each character. So if 6 seconds of pause between casts is to long you could always use the slow motion mode and have 12 seconds of time to select another spell.

 

No offense but please TEST stuff bevor you complain about it, half the complains on this forum would not exist if people would actually try stuff bevor they post.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Mayama

[Marceror]

I have stated a few times that I feel the game's combat system would work better as turn based. I still feel that way. But yesterday I finally got to play for a couple of hours without any game breaking bugs, and got a much better feel for combat. It's still wonky, yes, but I found that it actually works.

 

As I've also said before, I think we need to stop thinking of PoE as Real Time with Pause, as it's more apt to describe it as Pause with Real Time.

 

What I mean is, to control combat properly, you need to spend A LOT of time in that paused state. Unpause and let some things unfold, and pause again.

 

The per encounter abilities lend themselves to heavy pausing. Poor pathing lends itself to heavy pausing -- you can't just send your melee guys to attack the enemy as a group, you generally need to give each of them different individual paths to get to the enemy.

 

Keep things slow and methodical, and it works out relatively well.

[IndiraLightfoot]

That's the crux, perhaps? Remove those individual rounds - it's a pretty bad system, begging for headaches of all sorts, and stick to one single turn for all combatants, and build everything around that, including number of attackers per turn, the lot.

[Mayama]

That's the crux, perhaps? Remove those individual rounds - it's a pretty bad system, begging for headaches of all sorts, and stick to one single turn for all combatants, and build everything around that, including number of attackers per turn, the lot.

 

Those individual rounds are pretty long. You can easily test it, let your party members attack each other and count the seconds between attacks.

[Marceror]

That's the crux, perhaps? Remove those individual rounds - it's a pretty bad system, begging for headaches of all sorts, and stick to one single turn for all combatants, and build everything around that, including number of attackers per turn, the lot.

Sounds like a pretty sweeping change 4 months before full release. I'm not opposed to the idea of traditional rounds, as they are as familiar to me as my own hands. But would be very concerned about such a major change being made, unless there were plans to delay the release and perfect it, along with everything else that needs to be perfected.

[Wintersong]

D&D 4e was desinged to translate well into a computer game, specifically a MMO

 

 

 

4e is not meant to be played in Real Time

Unless you are talking Atlantica Online kind of MMORPG, I'd say that D&D 4 was more for Final Fantasy Tactics wannabe. But people prefered to compare that edition to WoW, which is as turn based as... er... nothing? Neverwinter MMORPG isn't D&D 4... despite being done during D&D 4 era.

 

I don't know if rounds would help improving combat. Right now my main issues are visual clarity and that if I need to switch actions (my Priest needs to stop auto attacking to cast a spell), the action bar resets. And considering that sometimes I feel that my clicks aren't always registered (Hey, haven't I clicked that Spell a bar ago?) from what I can see...

 

There being many skills feels nice for me. Auto attacking is sometimes a valid option (run out of abilities or just saving them) but it's nice that I can micro my way to victory.

[Osvir]

1st: Let's deal with the technical issues.
2nd: Discuss balance/design.

 

Repeat.

If you can't play "2nd" because "1st" is a problem, aren't you kind of skipping over/ignoring a pretty important step?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Osvir

[Tartantyco]

I have come to the conclusion that this thread is derp.

[Andhaira]

1st: Let's deal with the technical issues.

2nd: Discuss balance/design.

 

Repeat.

 

If you can't play "2nd" because "1st" is a problem, aren't you kind of skipping over/ignoring a pretty important step?

 

Oh I agree, which is why I said it's the first beta, things are supposed to be wonky. (I do wish though they had ensured that saving/loading was stable, as of now I don't save my games because they cause all sorts of glitches when I do. In my first game I played a Paladin, and after saving loading not only did equipment start disappearing, my Paladin got a Deflection bonus of 2972, meaning she could basically solo the entire beta, which she did)

 

But anyway, both can be worked on at the same time, and even if the 1st is a problem, it does not prevent us from seeing the problems of the second.

 

One thing I forgot to mention in my OP are the character movement speed, which @Sensuki mentioned in his combat thread. In the IE games characters did not run, in this that's all they do in combat resulting huge amounts of confusion and problems.

 

[Danathion]

Please, not turn-based! if you're not pausing, pause

[Osvir]

 

1st: Let's deal with the technical issues.

2nd: Discuss balance/design.

 

Repeat.

 

If you can't play "2nd" because "1st" is a problem, aren't you kind of skipping over/ignoring a pretty important step?

 

Oh I agree, which is why I said it's the first beta, things are supposed to be wonky. (I do wish though they had ensured that saving/loading was stable, as of now I don't save my games because they cause all sorts of glitches when I do. In my first game I played a Paladin, and after saving loading not only did equipment start disappearing, my Paladin got a Deflection bonus of 2972, meaning she could basically solo the entire beta, which she did)

 

But anyway, both can be worked on at the same time, and even if the 1st is a problem, it does not prevent us from seeing the problems of the second.

 

One thing I forgot to mention in my OP are the character movement speed, which @Sensuki mentioned in his combat thread. In the IE games characters did not run, in this that's all they do in combat resulting huge amounts of confusion and problems.

Saving and Loading might work excellently in the Full Build. The BB is a cut out piece given to us to try and enjoy, but cutting it out like they have caused more bugs.

The full build might be more stable than what we see in the BB.

 

I also suspect that Obsidian cut out something very important (by accident) because the code seems to reading itself backwards. That's why they want help with Missing Strings (I presume). 1 Missing String in the chunk of code can make everything messed up.

 

We see this in looped code as well: I had a created Rogue+BB Rogue in my party, Finishing Blow was activating/deactivating over and over and over.

 

The code itself for Finishing Blow might be fine, or that paragraph of code, but if there's a code further down the line, or the "parent code" that's missing something, it can get all wonky.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

Dum dum dee dum...

[IndiraLightfoot]

PrimeJunta: Thanks...not!

For each time I get directed to the RPG Codex and read a few pages, it feels like I've been subjected to three months of Chinese water torture. Their discussions are hallucinogenic in and by themselves. 

Edited August 24, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[AdaMusic]

I totally agree with the thread creator. I'd love to write 10000 lines of text about it, but I feel like it wouldn't make a difference.