For what it's worth: My take on the attributes

[war:head]

There's a lot going on about the attributes in the forums at the moment. The opinions range from minor tweaks to complete revamps of the system and a more D&D-style approach.

 

Personally, I feel the current system is in essence pretty good but the attribute <-> trait mapping is a bit off. Best example is dexterity which feels pretty obligatory for every class, same for might (with some exceptions). With the current system I don't feel I'll ever play a character that hasn't max Dex.

 

I thought a bit about how to rebalance the attributes to make character building more diverse and implement the attributes in a way that every one of them is viable for a certain build or another. All this with as few changes to the core gameplay as possible of course, so no new attributes or new traits. Just repurposing what we have.

 

The attributes we have are Might, Constitution, Perception, Resolve, Intellect and Dexterity while the traits that these attributes influence are Health, Stamina, Concentration. Interrupts, Accuracy, Damage and Defense. Additionally there's what I'd call Spell Efficiency, which describes the lengths and area of effects. Additionally to the current system there's also Attack Speed. Not influenced by any attributes at the moment.

 

I think that two things need to happen. 

 

1) The attribute <-> trait mapping needs to be changed to allow more diversity.

2) Interrupts need to play a bigger role in-game so a build around denying enemies should be viable while a slow-hitting player character should get into serious trouble with low concentration, being easy prey to fast hitting high-interrupt enemies.

3) This is actually a sub-part of one since it's about separating damage dealt by weapon from damage dealt by magic abilities. Doesn't make any sense to me why mental and physical damage should be related to the same attribute.

 

The second part is probably just a change in probability so not much to talk about, the first part, however, is what I'd like to quickly outline individually by attribute.

 

Constitution

Well, this one is pretty straight forward. It determines how endurable a character is and as such should influence Health and Fortitude Defense. A character with high Constitution is hard to kill and good at resisting poison, disease etc.

Stamina, however, should not be a trait of Constitution. Stamina is more of a mental virtue and thus part of the second attribute.

 

Resolve

Resolve is about how determined a character is. How fierce are they engaging the enemy and how much punishment can they take before giving way. The traits influenced by Resolve are weapon-based Damage and Stamina. I think there's actually a lot of merit in a build going for high-stamina and low health. I assume for this to work, though, the health <-> stamina damage ratio would need tweaking.

 

Perception

The attribute determining how well a character is aware of their surrounding, the enemy movements and weaknesses. The traits influenced are Accuracy and Deflection Defense. The latter one being obvious - if a character has a good awareness of what the enemy is doing, incoming blows can be deflected more easily. 

The former, however, sounds a bit off which is mostly due to it being wrongly named in my opinion. Accuracy in PoE isn't about hitting accurately, it's about circumventing the enemy's defenses. You can be as accurate as you want, if you don't know where to strike you won't be doing damage. Therefore it is a trait of perception.

 

Intellect

Again, rather straight-forward. Influenced by Intellect are non-weapon-based Damage, Concentration and Will Defense. All three of them are closely connected to how mentally capable a character is while still being viable in a lot of different builds. Heavy hitters need the concentration, soul-powers might need the damage if they're offensive. 

 

Dexterity

Once more a pretty obvious attribute for a character and influencing two things, Attack Speed and Reflex Defense.

 

Might

And last but not least, Might, the power of a character's soul and as such influencing spell efficiency. The secondary influence is Interrupt, which I am admittedly not that happy with as it doesn't really fit. Technically it should belong to Perception but that would make it way to potent an attribute. 

 

 

tl;dr Matrix

 

Constitution - Health, Fortitude Defense

Resolve        - weapon-based Damage, Stamina

Perception   - Accuracy, Deflection Defense

Intellect        - non-weapon-based Damage, Concentration, Will Defense

Dexterity      - Attack Speed, Reflex Defense

Might            - Spell Efficiency, Interrupt

 

I went through several different builds with this attribute setup and it generally felt reasonably well balanced and varied. Admittedly, I'm not that proficient with all this so it might just be utter non-sense - let me know what you think.

 

0.02$

Edited August 21, 2014 by war:head

[Matt516]

Fantastic breakdown. The stats are definitely going to be tweaked tons of times before release - I hope OE takes some of these suggestions under advisement.

[Matt516]

That said - completely divorcing health and stamina seems like a bad idea IMO. The reason being that I honestly cannot conceive of a character who would have high health and low stamina from a roleplaying perspective. I can, however, conceive of a character who has high stamina and low health - what if stamina was tied both to CON and RES? Make stamina a certain percentage of health, and let that percentage go up with RES.

 

That way you could have characters who are just beefy in general, but also have characters who are physically weak but have the resolve to fight on.

[Anaeme]

Heath and Stamina are intimately connected and should not be separated

[umooner]

I like where your head's at...I'm not sure this is EXACTLY what needs to happen, but it's a very good start and idea of the kind of thing that needs to happen.

[GreyFox]

I'm sure you've seen me say this already but I'm not sure I like interrupts being based on attributes if they should even be in the game at all.

 

Not to mention like in the Souls games...heavy armor makes you resistant to being interrupted...nothing of the sort in PE so far.

 

Makes no sense to me that the 'big heavy' would be constantly interrupted by a small dagger wielding guy who probably isn't getting too much through his DT yet is interrupting his already slow attack? no ty

[Tartantyco]

Why shouldn't interrupts be based on attributes?

[GreyFox]

Why shouldn't interrupts be based on attributes?

 

Why should it be in the game at all?

 

What does the game gain by having it?

 

I have questions for days before we get to yours mate.

 

 

If we're talking other games that have them...there is a system in place for that mechanic alone such as built into armor or having a value that needs to be taken down then you are interrupted after (say you take 10 damage then you are interrupted next hit).

 

In BG mages were automatically interrupted so that was merely hit the caster mode and was stupid then too.

Edited August 22, 2014 by GreyFox

[Namutree]

I've looked into this issue and I believe I have a simple solution to poe's attribute woes:

 

A) Might should not affect healing rate. Damage and fortitude defense is enough. Right now might is op. This will fix it.

 

B) Resolve should affect healing instead of might. Resolve is both under-powered and not useful enough for every class. This will fix it.

 

C) Perception needs to be given a very minor chance to increase your crit rate. I'd say about +0.25%. This will fix perception.

 

Done. Poe will now have balanced attributes.

[Tartantyco]

Well, I think the point is that you are able to build characters who focus on interrupt attacks. You can have a Barbarian who does AoE attacks that stops enemies from effectively attacking while the rest of your party cuts them down.

 

I don't think your "argument" has any legs unless you give actual reasons as to how this would detract from gameplay and character variety.

[GreyFox]

Well, I think the point is that you are able to build characters who focus on interrupt attacks. You can have a Barbarian who does AoE attacks that stops enemies from effectively attacking while the rest of your party cuts them down.

 

I don't think your "argument" has any legs unless you give actual reasons as to how this would detract from gameplay and character variety.

 

Just my opinion not an argument and its a legit question really. Once again no one is really using Perception and Resolve and Obsidian has personally commented on this so yea....it doesn't add much to game play right now and they are being used as dump stats.

 

So questioning the validity of a mechanic that is more aRPG in nature and not in the vein of IE other than spell interruption has plenty of legs.

 

Interrupts/Concentration

If a character is hit while preforming an action such as casting a spell, attacking an enemy or reloading a weapon his action is interrupted, if he can't maintain his Concentration. If an action is interrupted, it stops. If it's a repeated action like reloading/firing or performing standard attacks, it will restart from the beginning as soon as the interrupt animation finishes. For one-off/special use actions, the action isn't "lost" (meaning you can try using it again) but it will not auto-re-attempt.^[2]

• Concentration: Concentration prevents you from playing hit reactions when you take damage. If you cannot maintain Concentration, you will play a hit reaction and your attack/reload/spell is interrupted.^[3] Concentration is influenced by Resolve.
• Interrupt: If your Interrupt is high you will stop the enemies actions if you hit them more often. Each weapon/attack have a base interrupt value and attacks that have high rates of fire (like wands and spell missiles) or area of effect abilities have low base Interrupt values. But there are exceptions, Firearms have relatively low base Interrupt (and high damage) and Thrust of Tattered Veils has a high base Interrupt (but does very little damage).^[4][5][6] Interrupt is influenced by Perception.

 

Maybe it would help if this was explained in more detail? When I read that I still don't get it because weapons have interrupt values but does armor have any defense against interrupts?

How exactly is the check made?  a % roll?

 

This has the potential to be completely op or completely trivial.

So far things look trivial as far as this goes and I see a complete lack of discussion about interrupts specifically...IE no one really cares about it. Just doesn't seem like a well fleshed out or important mechanic.

[Light]

Heath and Stamina are intimately connected and should not be separated

 

I don't necessarily agree, yes they are related in that a person with out a good starting health will not have good stamina. However there are numerous real world stories of solders who have taken out multiple enemy combatants or defense positions in order to save their comrades even after being mortally wounded.

 

In game terms that is Health draining away while Stamina keep the character in action.  

[Gromnir]

am gonna repeat this again, 'cause we ain't seen an answer yet:

 

how on earth is folks deciding that the current abilities is poorly balanced?

 

given the lack o' combat mechanics transparency, how is folks deciding that might outshines intellect or that perception is a dump stat for all builds?  is this a gut feeling kinda thing? is there a thread wherein combat mechanics/numbers has been parsed and we simple didn't see it? 

 

is a bunch o' threads speaking to ability score improvements, but Gromnir is still not certain how primary and derived stats affect gameplay, at least not with any certainty. how can folks be so convinced o' improvements if the only thing they gots to base conclusions 'pon is wiki links and gut feelings?

 

am genuine confused.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Elerond]

am gonna repeat this again, 'cause we ain't seen an answer yet:

 

how on earth is folks deciding that the current abilities is poorly balanced?

 

given the lack o' combat mechanics transparency, how is folks deciding that might outshines intellect or that perception is a dump stat for all builds?  is this a gut feeling kinda thing? is there a thread wherein combat mechanics/numbers has been parsed and we simple didn't see it? 

 

is a bunch o' threads speaking to ability score improvements, but Gromnir is still not certain how primary and derived stats affect gameplay, at least not with any certainty. how can folks be so convinced o' improvements if the only thing they gots to base conclusions 'pon is wiki links and gut feelings?

 

am genuine confused.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yep, might might seem like better stat than intellect in first glance, but to me it seems that many abilities will cause much more damage with high intellect and moderate might. And dexterity don't seem always worth of points put on it as you supporters' abilities buff so much your hit chance especially when you take account bonuses from weapons and offensive abilities, that those points probably produce better end result in some other stats. But I haven't done math yet (because of lack of knowledge about system), so best that I can do is guess. 

[war:head]

When I read that I still don't get it because weapons have interrupt values but does armor have any defense against interrupts?

 

I'm quite fond of the idea behind interrupts but I do agree that the apparent absence of interrupt defense on armor doesn't make a lot of sense. If the type and impact of a weapon determines base interrupt, the type and sturdiness of armor should determine a base interrupt threshold.

 

I think this would even be required for boss fights if Interrupts are to play any significant role in PoE unless every single boss has a very high concentration or some generic "immune to interrupts" nonsense. Both of which wouldn't really fit the game. 

[Namutree]

am gonna repeat this again, 'cause we ain't seen an answer yet:

 

how on earth is folks deciding that the current abilities is poorly balanced?

 

given the lack o' combat mechanics transparency, how is folks deciding that might outshines intellect or that perception is a dump stat for all builds?  is this a gut feeling kinda thing? is there a thread wherein combat mechanics/numbers has been parsed and we simple didn't see it? 

 

is a bunch o' threads speaking to ability score improvements, but Gromnir is still not certain how primary and derived stats affect gameplay, at least not with any certainty. how can folks be so convinced o' improvements if the only thing they gots to base conclusions 'pon is wiki links and gut feelings?

 

am genuine confused.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Because we can comprehend the concepts behind them and how they affect certain builds. We don't need to wait to know that almost all conceivable builds have a major need for MIG. Which is why I have suggested giving the healing influence of might over to RES.

[Cthulchulain]

 

am gonna repeat this again, 'cause we ain't seen an answer yet:

 

how on earth is folks deciding that the current abilities is poorly balanced?

 

given the lack o' combat mechanics transparency, how is folks deciding that might outshines intellect or that perception is a dump stat for all builds?  is this a gut feeling kinda thing? is there a thread wherein combat mechanics/numbers has been parsed and we simple didn't see it? 

 

is a bunch o' threads speaking to ability score improvements, but Gromnir is still not certain how primary and derived stats affect gameplay, at least not with any certainty. how can folks be so convinced o' improvements if the only thing they gots to base conclusions 'pon is wiki links and gut feelings?

 

am genuine confused.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Because we can comprehend the concepts behind them and how they affect certain builds. We don't need to wait to know that almost all conceivable builds have a major need for MIG. Which is why I have suggested giving the healing influence of might over to RES.

 

 

 

Probably shouldn't discount how much people will make decisions (at least initially) on what *sounds* good, whether or not the implementation gives commensurate effects in-game.

[Grand_Commander13]

Because we can comprehend the concepts behind them and how they affect certain builds. We don't need to wait to know that almost all conceivable builds have a major need for MIG. Which is why I have suggested giving the healing influence of might over to RES.

Giving healing done to other characters to Resolve only helps if healing other characters is something every class might do. Since it probably isn't too likely that your ranger is going to be healing someone, how does this make Resolve any more appealing for a ranger? All it's doing is saying "Mage = Might; Priest = Resolve" rather than "Big spell effects = Might; Big spell durations = Intelligence".

 

You need each attribute to have something that each class might want, not to be specific to a particular class.

[Namutree]

 

Because we can comprehend the concepts behind them and how they affect certain builds. We don't need to wait to know that almost all conceivable builds have a major need for MIG. Which is why I have suggested giving the healing influence of might over to RES.

Giving healing done to other characters to Resolve only helps if healing other characters is something every class might do. Since it probably isn't too likely that your ranger is going to be healing someone, how does this make Resolve any more appealing for a ranger? All it's doing is saying "Mage = Might; Priest = Resolve" rather than "Big spell effects = Might; Big spell durations = Intelligence".

 

You need each attribute to have something that each class might want, not to be specific to a particular class.

 

RES on a ranger is something that really has slipped my mind. I can think of a need for it with the other classes under my tweaks, but not the Ranger... Wait, the Ranger might get an ability to heal his animal familiar. That is a big maybe though; probably won't... Dang, the one class I didn't think about. You got me...

[Grand_Commander13]

Well I just used the ranger as an example... Healing powers don't appear to be super-duper common.

[Namutree]

Well I just used the ranger as an example... Healing powers don't appear to be super-duper common.

Yeah, but the other classes aside from the priest have an inherent need for RES. See, any class can be made into a tank; tanks benefit from RES. Except rangers. I gave healing to RES mostly to make MIG a bit less needed for all the builds. RES is a bit neglected so it made sense to give that stat the greater appeal.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Namutree

[Ondb]

 

Why shouldn't interrupts be based on attributes?

 

Why should it be in the game at all?

 

What does the game gain by having it?

 

I have questions for days before we get to yours mate.

 

 

If we're talking other games that have them...there is a system in place for that mechanic alone such as built into armor or having a value that needs to be taken down then you are interrupted after (say you take 10 damage then you are interrupted next hit).

 

In BG mages were automatically interrupted so that was merely hit the caster mode and was stupid then too.

 

 

This is exactly what i was thinking. 

[Ondb]

Well, I think the point is that you are able to build characters who focus on interrupt attacks. You can have a Barbarian who does AoE attacks that stops enemies from effectively attacking while the rest of your party cuts them down.

 

I don't think your "argument" has any legs unless you give actual reasons as to how this would detract from gameplay and character variety.

 

I have really hard time to imagine game dev be happy with 1 character stun locking every enemy via unlimited interrupts

Imagine going against Ogre with 2-3 melee characters with interrupts. Should this work?

[Luridis]

On the subject of making the non STR/Dex/Con attributes more attractive...

 

Will Defense needs to be moved to Resolve. A smaller bonus to concentration from this stat would help too, even though I thought it (Resolve) already did effect concentration.

 

Perception needs to produce a smaller, yet across the board bonus to all defenses (Will, Reflex, Fort). Perhaps even make it bonus rogue skills as well. It would make for more versatile rogues and rangers. i.e. Then it's not just about find traps.

[Luridis]

 

Well, I think the point is that you are able to build characters who focus on interrupt attacks. You can have a Barbarian who does AoE attacks that stops enemies from effectively attacking while the rest of your party cuts them down.

 

I don't think your "argument" has any legs unless you give actual reasons as to how this would detract from gameplay and character variety.

 

I have really hard time to imagine game dev be happy with 1 character stun locking every enemy via unlimited interrupts

Imagine going against Ogre with 2-3 melee characters with interrupts. Should this work?

 

 

Sure, if you're blowing lots of tightly limited resources.