Ukraine discussion

[Chilloutman]

Little off topic, but I muust say that Russian army machines looks always much more badass that western counterparts I mean look at Hinds, they are so macho!

[obyknven]

moar of debunking  

Ukrainian tank T-72M (not T-72B3)  with Belarusian sight "Sosna" and Kontakt-5 at Ilovaisk.

 

Yet another T-72 of Ukrainian Army.

 

Former Soviet tanks T-72A and T-64 at Ukrainian factory in Kharkov.

 

Former Soviet tanks T-72B at Ukrainian reserve base in Artyomovsk.

 

Ukrainian tank T-72UA-1 with 5TDFMA-1 engine at Kiev tank factory (KBTZ).

 

Upgraded Ukrainian tanks T-72 at Kiev armor factory (KBTZ).

 

 

Ukrainian tank T-72 at Lvov tank factory (LBTRZ).


 

[Walsingham]

I approve entirely of the discussion, but what exactly do a half dozen random images actually prove, 'oby'?

 

Also, to bring in the other half of the point, what about the mysterious rise in dead paratroopers?

 

I'm genuinely amused to find the usual useful idiots (see other thread) accusing the BBC of being corrupt koolaid for the masses, and the Nu Kremlin owned media as being more trustworthy. To me this smacks of the adolescent who thinks their parents are the worst people in the world. The cure in both cases is to get out into the world and see the alternatives.

[Malcador]

 

Harper's whoring for Ukrainian votes of late (would help some in Toronto, for sure)

[obyknven]

Russia has called for "a 100% guarantee that no-one would think about Ukraine joining Nato".
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30107520
NATO say GTFO
http://www.mnogovbloge.com/?p=7910&lang=en
 
And Russia say "ok, if Ukraine stop being a neutral country this is meant a solving of crisis in East Ukraine by Russian military force". In other words in this case we finally really begin war against West.
 
Russian mode on.

Do want! Finally we can squash weak skulls of our enemies. We await this too long.
I'm so happy now.

 
Russian mode off.

[Zoraptor]

 

I approve entirely of the discussion, but what exactly do a half dozen random images actually prove, 'oby'?

 

 

 

 

His first post is most relevant, since it shows the Ukrainians have a sight that matches (well, as much as can be told from a low res still) the one on the tank in question.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Zoraptor

[HoonDing]

Tanks are cool.

[Walsingham]

 

 

I approve entirely of the discussion, but what exactly do a half dozen random images actually prove, 'oby'?

 

 

 

 

His first post is most relevant, since it shows the Ukrainians have a sight that matches (well, as much as can be told from a low res still) the one on the tank in question.

 

 

Open question: aren't you being a wee bit selective? That variant has some sort of macguffin on the near side that looks to like some active emitter that would be presumably paired with the sight. The original doesn't have that so far as I can see.

[Zoraptor]

On the blurry image? If I'm looking for the same thing you are I'd say it is there, slightly below and to the right of the second open hatch on the turret/ slightly above and to the right of the fourth ER block, very nearly obscured by the tree branch. Unprovable short of CSI's 'enlarge and enhance' technomagic due to the low res blurriness, but it certainly looks like it to me.

 

Don't really know about being overly selective, it cannot be proven that it isn't a Russian tank, it can only be proven that it may be of Ukrainian origin so there has to be some selectivity. It isn't like it's a Leopard/ Challenger/ Abrams v T72 question where there is totally different hardware, you have to pick on narrow sets of similarities/ differences because both sides largely use the same equipment.

[Agiel]

The PNK-6 system can only verifiably have been placed on T-84 "Oplot" tanks, the absolute bleeding edge of Ukrainian tank-building, and not on any Cold War-vintage T-72Bs, of which it certainly is no trivial matter to simply attach the sight to any old tank or make it work in conjunction with the FCS. And in any case as I stated before there is very little reason to believe that the Ukrainians upgraded many of them to this extent, and even if they did, the Rebels would have had to have pinched the tank from the plant in Kharkiv dozens of miles behind pro-Kiev lines and driven to to the battlespace.

 

moar of debunking  

Ukrainian tank T-72M (not T-72B3)  with Belarusian sight "Sosna" and Kontakt-5 at Ilovaisk.
 

 

Shows what you know. T-72M is the designation for export versions of the T-72A "Ural". Ukraine never purchased the SOSNA-U sight from Belarus, and the only relevant system is their own indigenously-built SAVAN-15 sight, again largely for export purposesonly. And the photo was dated during the intervention that was fully acknowledged by the CIS.

[obyknven]

The PNK-6 system can only verifiably have been placed on T-84 "Oplot" tanks, the absolute bleeding edge of Ukrainian tank-building, and not on any Cold War-vintage T-72Bs, of which it certainly is no trivial matter to simply attach the sight to any old tank or make it work in conjunction with the FCS. And in any case as I stated before there is very little reason to believe that the Ukrainians upgraded many of them to this extent, and even if they did, the Rebels would have had to have pinched the tank from the plant in Kharkiv dozens of miles behind pro-Kiev lines and driven to to the battlespace.

 

moar of debunking  

Ukrainian tank T-72M (not T-72B3)  with Belarusian sight "Sosna" and Kontakt-5 at Ilovaisk.

 

 

Shows what you know. T-72M is the designation for export versions of the T-72A "Ural". Ukraine never purchased the SOSNA-U sight from Belarus, and the only relevant system is their own indigenously-built SAVAN-15 sight, again largely for export purposesonly. And the photo was dated during the intervention that was fully acknowledged by the CIS.

 

Lol, you reject reality. Tank from photo marked by signs of Ukrainian Army and this photo from zone of civil war in East Ukraine.

 

All these tanks (t-72, t-64) IRL are old Soviet tanks and such tanks are widespread in the world especially in ex-Soviet countries (especially in such militarized country as Ukraine is (4-th army by power in world in 1991)). Hysterical cry of western elites in style "Holy sh*** 40-year-old soviet tanks has been noticed in ex-Soviet country, this is our proof of Russian invasion" looks really retarded. Obviously all these tanks don't stay unchanged all these years, Ukraine modernized them also (by Belorussian and Russian equipment too, Ukrainian-Russian partnership of military manufacturers is very close until last year), and if you don't known about this - it's only because such things usually are secreted in these very corrupted Ukrainian military forces ( Ukraine is probably biggest black market of weapon in the world).

[obyknven]

Yet another funny photo. Ukrainian president at Ukrainian military base.

Behind him "Russian" Ukrainian t-72.

Guys, in difference with you all i really known what happened in East Ukraine IRL ( but don't say all truth to enemies of my people obviously ). I can only say - all these "proofs" of Russian invasion is total bull**** (though this is don't mean what Russia do nothing, but in world of adult people you must have proofs for accusations, accusations in style all mean are rapists because of they have penises "Russia do this because Russia have possibility to do this" looks really childish here).

[Walsingham]

On the blurry image? If I'm looking for the same thing you are I'd say it is there, slightly below and to the right of the second open hatch on the turret/ slightly above and to the right of the fourth ER block, very nearly obscured by the tree branch. Unprovable short of CSI's 'enlarge and enhance' technomagic due to the low res blurriness, but it certainly looks like it to me.

 

Don't really know about being overly selective, it cannot be proven that it isn't a Russian tank, it can only be proven that it may be of Ukrainian origin so there has to be some selectivity. It isn't like it's a Leopard/ Challenger/ Abrams v T72 question where there is totally different hardware, you have to pick on narrow sets of similarities/ differences because both sides largely use the same equipment.

 

I don't think there is anything on the side there. Although Aggi has trumped our debate with his point.

 

I do have to object to the notion that it's impossible to tell. I may not be a tankspotter, but if you know any old soldiers surely you've witnessed them telling vehicles apart due to the fifth idler wheel on the offhand track assembly, or what have you?

 

Generalising about how "all these countries have the same old soviet tanks" is surely the one thing has been established beyond reasonable doubt by this discussion. Thus oby's reply is disingenuous at best.

[obyknven]

Although Aggi has trumped our debate with his point. 

 

 

Lol, this kid even cant read. He wrote: "The PNK-6 system can only verifiably have been placed on T-84 "Oplot" tanks", though manufacturer on own official site say  "The sight is mounted in the T-84 tank fire control system and can also be used to upgrade the T-64B, T-72 and T-80 tanks".  He is male version of Psaki.

 

 

Generalising about how "all these countries have the same old soviet tanks" is surely the one thing has been established beyond reasonable doubt by this discussion. Thus oby's reply is disingenuous at best.

Fat troll detected.

 

t-64 - manufactured from 1963 year. 

t-72 - manufactured from 1973 year.

t-80 - manufactured from 1976 year

 

USSR dissolving is 1991 year.

Obviously all ex-Soviet countries has  huge amount of these old tanks.  My God, even many NATO members has huge amounts of these tanks (and they can easily send few of them to Ukraine for making "proofs")

Only if someone spotted t-90 or Armata in Ukraine it's can be used as proof of Russian involvement. All other accusations is just stupid Murican propaganda for stupid Murican voters.

 

https://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2014/11/19/rt-kerry-to-lavrov-ignore-obamas-naming-of-russia-on-top-threats-list/

 

“Not so long ago, I was having a conversation with John Kerry and asked him what it all meant. He answered, ‘Pay it no mind’,” Lavrov said.

[Zoraptor]

I don't think there is anything on the side there. Although Aggi has trumped our debate with his point.

 

Not really. The manufacturer says that the sight can be fitted to a T72 fine. I might feel differently if there were evidence that the Russians used that sight or something that appears very similar on their T72s but at present you have a Ukrainian sight, a T72 model that both sides have access to and ER that both sides have access to. You also have the rebels grabbing a lot of military store houses and the like.

 

For the second picture oby is quite right, the two white lines are Ukrainian id markers, there are multiple other examples floating around to support this. They could have been painted on after the tank was knocked out or it could have been a prize (there was a claim of a prize taken in the relevant area by Ukrainian (para)militaries, unfortunately at least two tanks of that type with Ukrainian markings have been knocked out in distinctly different areas) but that's an open question at this point.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Zoraptor

[Agiel]

You don't *just* attach said sight onto any old tank like you would a web-cam. Modern fire-control computers have to factor in everything from range, elevation, wind, humidity and even the warp of the barrel from repeated firings in order to hit a target up to 3500 meters away with standard unpowered tank rounds (with an extreme instance being an Iraqi T-72 killed by a Challenger 1 from 5100 meters away). To use an American example to explain the complexity, proposals for the M1A3 call for the wiring to be replaced with fiber-optics, resulting in weight savings of one ton! Not to mention the fact that panoramic sights are expensive pieces of equipment that add considerably to unit costs. The original M1 was slated to have it until congressional beancounters stepped in, and only the provisions for it to be installed at a later time were left (until the introduction of the M1A2), and the Germans settled for an analogue day-only "Peri" as an interim measure for their own Leopard 2s (they only received panoramic sights with thermal imaging capabilities with the Leopard 2A5).

 

And as I have said at least two times before I find it unlikely to the extreme that the Ukrainians would upgrade tanks for their own armed forces of whom the prime contractor of parts would come from a foreign country unless they were meant for foreign sales as was the case with the T-72AG.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Agiel

[Malcador]

So any actual proof that Russians have tank units in Ukraine, yet ?

[Drowsy Emperor]

If the Russians had invaded Ukraine they'd be on Ukraine's western borders by now.

 

The Ukrainian "army" is a patchwork of paramilitaries funded by local tycoons, neo-nazis, volunteers and international mercenaries. Ukraine's regular army doesn't have enough gear in working condition to fight a real war.They couldn't secure a win even against the eastern local militias how would they keep the russian armed forces at bay?

Edited November 21, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[obyknven]

So any actual proof that Russians have tank units in Ukraine, yet ?

Nope. Actually even no proofs of Russian-made tanks presence in Ukraine. But...

 

British scientists government do want be clowns also. They spread this funny pic... and this explain why some forum members (who acts as members of British propaganda-squads) begin ****storm here.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/19/british-embassy-ukraine-tweets-guide-russian-tank

 

1. T-72BM tanks never existed.

2. Second photo is t-64 lol.

3. Third photo is old Soviet (1989) t-72b1 with Kontakt 5 (burned tank of Ukrainian army)

4. First photo  t-72b1 again. Ukraine has quite big amount of these Soviet tanks and non-surprisingly  rebels expropriate few of them.

 

http://www.simthetiqestore.com/tracked-vehicle-t-72-m1-p-1197.html

Operators Ukraine

 

Moar burned Ukrainian T-72B1.

 

 

Later Ukrainian upgrades of old Soviet T-72B1 (export variant T-72UMG with a bit masked Kontakt 5 Era for avoid of  paying to license owners (yep Ukrainians are thiefs)).

In near past Ukraine flood Afrika by a bit reshaped T-72B1 tanks, this is even cause some scandal (because of  Black market again).

 

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/us-official-accuses-ukraine-of-lying-about-2008-ar-92515.html

http://rpdefense.over-blog.com/article-africa-increases-imports-of-ukrainian-arms-79792657.html

[Chilloutman]

If the Russians had invaded Ukraine they'd be on Ukraine's western borders by now.

 

The Ukrainian "army" is a patchwork of paramilitaries funded by local tycoons, neo-nazis, volunteers and international mercenaries. Ukraine's regular army doesn't have enough gear in working condition to fight a real war.They couldn't secure a win even against the eastern local militias how would they keep the russian armed forces at bay?

 

Well if they are there, they definetelly dont want full scale war, because if they use paramilitary forces no-one can accuse them of being there - and by the way, even russia say there are there, but on vacancy

[Walsingham]

You don't *just* attach said sight onto any old tank like you would a web-cam.

 

This is the point. real life machinery isn't like a computer game. Fitting new sights or other electronics takes years of planning, engineering, and development. Look at how long it's taking to the British Army to upgrade our Warrior IFVs. That was starting when I was in the TA, and it's still not completed.

 

In any event we're allowing this to become a debate fixated on a single photograph. the much more important point is to query how the rebels are operating so many advanced systems. Not just tanks, but artillery and SAMs. The scale of operation is equally significant.

[obyknven]

Meanwhile in Ukraine...

Freedom of press is same as in Russia is... though IRL Ukraine is one of world leaders in journalists killings. You can trust to western propaganda media lol
https://cpj.org/killed/2014/

Destroyed by civil war Ukraine where laws mean nothing (after Maidan police just hiding), and any criminal can kill you as "separatist" or "Russian spy" - such country as Ukraine is more happy than Russia too.

http://www.happyplanetindex.org/data/

Truth, truth everywhere. Especially so much truth in words of such NWO organisations as New Economics Foundation is.
 
Other news. Sanctions against Russia show own effectiveness.
Russian hate against Muricans reach historic maximum! 78% of Russians don't like Murica now it's a Great Victory!
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kommersant.ru%2Fdoc%2F2617838&edit-text=
 

 

 

My God! Why all these moneybags looks so nasty (and so similar to each-other)? Do they are reptiloids? The Natural selection is really ended in society ruled by money.

 

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

If the Russians had invaded Ukraine they'd be on Ukraine's western borders by now.

 

The Ukrainian "army" is a patchwork of paramilitaries funded by local tycoons, neo-nazis, volunteers and international mercenaries. Ukraine's regular army doesn't have enough gear in working condition to fight a real war.They couldn't secure a win even against the eastern local militias how would they keep the russian armed forces at bay?

 

Well if they are there, they definetelly dont want full scale war, because if they use paramilitary forces no-one can accuse them of being there - and by the way, even russia say there are there, but on vacancy

 

 

Its no secret that volunteers have been streaming across the eastern border into Ukraine. Probably gear with them as well. But an organized army incursion simply did not happen or we would have seen a massive shift in the front.

[Chilloutman]

 

 

If the Russians had invaded Ukraine they'd be on Ukraine's western borders by now.

 

The Ukrainian "army" is a patchwork of paramilitaries funded by local tycoons, neo-nazis, volunteers and international mercenaries. Ukraine's regular army doesn't have enough gear in working condition to fight a real war.They couldn't secure a win even against the eastern local militias how would they keep the russian armed forces at bay?

 

Well if they are there, they definetelly dont want full scale war, because if they use paramilitary forces no-one can accuse them of being there - and by the way, even russia say there are there, but on vacancy

 

 

Its no secret that volunteers have been streaming across the eastern border into Ukraine. Probably gear with them as well. But an organized army incursion simply did not happen or we would have seen a massive shift in the front.

 

 

Well, define volunteer with gear . At least where i live you cant stumble across top notch military gear on the streets

[Drowsy Emperor]

I meant weapons and basic supplies. I doubt the Russians have been giving them tanks, if they have, it must have been no more than a handful.

 

Its common sense that a large force would lead to the front being pushed westward. Nothing of the kind has happened therefore there is no invasion.