The General Combat Thread

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Josh has posted this response on the SA forums.

 

 

Looks like some enemies will target specific characters in your party (eg. back line casters) and ignore other party members even when they get engaged. Where already seeing something like this with teleporting enemies (eg. Spiders) when they run into an obstacle like your front line and will teleport to your mage. I know it's a bug and should get sorted out. Now we have enemies still ignoring your front line who will try and get to your back line.

 

Part of me finds it a bit odd that an enemy will ignore the Fighter or Rogue that's doing damage to him right in their face, and then provoke opportunity attacks to try and continue to go after that Mage in your back line. Will have to see how it's implemented in the next Beta update.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[adam77]

 

- mess

- I can't see anything

- status bar above characters is useless in such mess

[BlueLion]

Please tell me the DoTs are going to be nerfed in the next patch as combat seems to be more about 'can i deal with the DoTs before they kill me' and less about working out varying ways of dealing with specific enemies. I have no issues with poison being a significant consideration when dealing with the beetles but it is far too devastating in its current form.

[adam77]

Battle.jpg

 

- mess

- I can't see anything

- status bar above characters is useless in such mess

maybe put down the status bar at the bottom of portraits

Edited September 14, 2014 by adam77

[prodigydancer]

Josh has posted this response on the SA forums.

 

 

Looks like some enemies will target specific characters in your party (eg. back line casters) and ignore other party members even when they get engaged. Where already seeing something like this with teleporting enemies (eg. Spiders) when they run into an obstacle like your front line and will teleport to your mage. I know it's a bug and should get sorted out. Now we have enemies still ignoring your front line who will try and get to your back line.

 

Part of me finds it a bit odd that an enemy will ignore the Fighter or Rogue that's doing damage to him right in their face, and then provoke opportunity attacks to try and continue to go after that Mage in your back line. Will have to see how it's implemented in the next Beta update.

Out of context it's hard to tell how well this is going to work. Because it all depends on the implementation. For example, if they'll have dynamic aggro tables and aggro management skills, we'll have traditional MMO combat. Which isn't odd at all though I doubt it's what we want.

 

If there'll be enemies that will ignore all aggro and simply go for the squishiest target then the question is how often we'll encounter those. If they're few and far between, crowd control and clever positioning (maybe with occasional kiting) should suffice. But if they're common enough the most efficient party composition may turn out pretty awkward: either six glass cannons betting on destroying everything really fast or six tanky characters winning fights through impenetrable defense and slow attrition. The latter possibility is particularly disturbing because it'll certainly kill all the fun.

Edited September 14, 2014 by prodigydancer

[DCParry]

 

Josh has posted this response on the SA forums.

 

 

Looks like some enemies will target specific characters in your party (eg. back line casters) and ignore other party members even when they get engaged. Where already seeing something like this with teleporting enemies (eg. Spiders) when they run into an obstacle like your front line and will teleport to your mage. I know it's a bug and should get sorted out. Now we have enemies still ignoring your front line who will try and get to your back line.

 

Part of me finds it a bit odd that an enemy will ignore the Fighter or Rogue that's doing damage to him right in their face, and then provoke opportunity attacks to try and continue to go after that Mage in your back line. Will have to see how it's implemented in the next Beta update.

Out of context it's hard to tell how well this is going to work. Because it all depends on the implementation. For example, if they'll have dynamic aggro tables and aggro management skills, we'll have traditional MMO combat. Which isn't odd at all though I doubt it's what we want.

 

If there'll be enemies that will ignore all aggro and simply go for the squishiest target then the question is how often we'll encounter those. If they're few and far between, crowd control and clever positioning (maybe with occasional kiting) should suffice. But if they're common enough the most efficient party composition may turn out pretty awkward: either six glass cannons betting on destroying everything really fast or six tanky characters winning fights through impenetrable defense and slow attrition. The latter possibility is particularly disturbing because it'll certainly kill all the fun.

 

 

The latter does not, by definition, kill all the fun. It is just a different way of approaching combat. You may not personally enjoy it, which is fine, but I don't think making players (many of whom are complaining about the nudery going on in their backline in beta) deal with non-optimal situations is a bad thing. 

[prodigydancer]

I don't think making players (many of whom are complaining about the nudery going on in their backline in beta) deal with non-optimal situations is a bad thing. 

We're discussing a game with no actual healing, remember? Dead people do no damage (and neither they do anything useful for that matter). People having naked backline characters has more to do with how the game currently punishes you for wearing any kind of armor. BTW, most low level robes in IE games were purely cosmetic too.

 

Now if a ranged caster, for example, can neither be realistically effective while wearing medium or heavy armor nor realistically survive while wearing light or no armor, what's the point of sacrificing a party roster spot other than "you're supposed to have a wizard in your party if it's a fantasy game"?

 

When the margin of error is too small, the option is no longer viable in practice no matter how sound it's in theory.

Edited September 14, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Elerond]

 

I don't think making players (many of whom are complaining about the nudery going on in their backline in beta) deal with non-optimal situations is a bad thing.

We're discussing a game with no actual healing, remember? Dead people do no damage (and neither they do anything useful for that matter). People having naked backline characters has more to do with how the game currently punishes you for wearing any kind of armor. BTW, most low level robes in IE games were purely cosmetic too.

 

Now if a ranged caster, for example, can neither be realistically effective while wearing medium or heavy armor nor realistically survive while wearing light or no armor, what's the point of sacrificing a party roster spot other than "you're supposed to have a wizard in your party if it's a fantasy game"?

 

When the margin of error is too small, the option is no longer viable in practice no matter how sound it's in theory.

 

Wizards and other ranged characters can and are effective while wearing armor, but currently they get hit so rarely that protection that armor offer don't justify loss of castings/attacking speed caused by armor, which is why people run with naked back liners.

 

Changes in AI behavior isn't meant to make armorless back liners useless but lessen their usefulness compared to armored back liners.

[Namutree]

 BTW, most low level robes in IE games were purely cosmetic too.

 

Which IE games are you talking about? All the robes have an effect as far as I can remember. I just got done with BG literally yesterday, and every robe had an effect of some kind.

[archangel979]

 

I don't think making players (many of whom are complaining about the nudery going on in their backline in beta) deal with non-optimal situations is a bad thing.

We're discussing a game with no actual healing, remember? Dead people do no damage (and neither they do anything useful for that matter). People having naked backline characters has more to do with how the game currently punishes you for wearing any kind of armor. BTW, most low level robes in IE games were purely cosmetic too.

 

Now if a ranged caster, for example, can neither be realistically effective while wearing medium or heavy armor nor realistically survive while wearing light or no armor, what's the point of sacrificing a party roster spot other than "you're supposed to have a wizard in your party if it's a fantasy game"?

 

When the margin of error is too small, the option is no longer viable in practice no matter how sound it's in theory.

 

Which brings us back to how design on everyone gets to wear armor might not be a correct one. I enjoyed having my wizard protect themselves with spells while fighters used armors. I still want wizards to have enough magical defenses that armors are not needed or wanted for them unless they are in melee all the time like fighters are.

In release version, I hope to see multiple defensive spells that actually work.

[morhilane]

 

 

I don't think making players (many of whom are complaining about the nudery going on in their backline in beta) deal with non-optimal situations is a bad thing.

We're discussing a game with no actual healing, remember? Dead people do no damage (and neither they do anything useful for that matter). People having naked backline characters has more to do with how the game currently punishes you for wearing any kind of armor. BTW, most low level robes in IE games were purely cosmetic too.

 

Now if a ranged caster, for example, can neither be realistically effective while wearing medium or heavy armor nor realistically survive while wearing light or no armor, what's the point of sacrificing a party roster spot other than "you're supposed to have a wizard in your party if it's a fantasy game"?

 

When the margin of error is too small, the option is no longer viable in practice no matter how sound it's in theory.

 

Which brings us back to how design on everyone gets to wear armor might not be a correct one. I enjoyed having my wizard protect themselves with spells while fighters used armors. I still want wizards to have enough magical defenses that armors are not needed or wanted for them unless they are in melee all the time like fighters are.

In release version, I hope to see multiple defensive spells that actually work.

 

 

The only thing armor provide is DT which has nothing to do with getting hit or not (that's deflection), it's less or more damage reduction against certain type of damage (at the cost of execution speed). Putting a Wizard in armor isn't going to increase his deflection stats, you need to use spells for that (there is at least one spell per level in the Wizard's spell list).

[archangel979]

You misunderstood my meaning. Deflecting physical attack and reducing its damage come down to the same thing and it protects from same kind of damage. It still does not change the fact that wizards should protect themselves with magic first and use armor only if they tend to be in melee often.

The penalty of wearing armor for spellcasters is more significant than for weapon users, so it is expected they will not wear it (as it reinforces the archetype wizard in robes) so I am only saying there should be plenty of good defensive spells that will protect the caster.

Edited September 15, 2014 by archangel979

[PrimeHydra]

Playing build 301. Noticing that when you issue a command in combat with the game paused, you don't see the ability's icon in the "current action" circle above the character's model. I like how the character swivels to face the target, that helps, but we need to see the actual ability icon.

 

For instance, if you choose an attack ability like Flames of Devotion, then click an enemy, the "current action" circle turns into the generic attack icon, not the one for Flames of Devotion specifically.

 

I realize Expert Mode users would like this to remain generic, but for us UI nuts please consider showing the icon for the ability I just commanded. Mages already show the icon of the spell they're currently casting in this spot.

 

Edit: It looks like some abilities like the fighter's Knockdown are shown in that circle upon selection. That makes me wonder if it's a bug...is this simply the issue where commands don't always work?

Edited October 2, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[PrimeHydra]

In build 301, responsiveness in combat remains frustratingly inconsistent. I often have to give commands two or three times before the character "hears me".

 

The little "pending action" icon (small circle above model's head) does not always show my chosen action; sometimes it just shows a generic attack icon for an attack ability.  While "Expert mode" fans may like this, some of us would prefer UI consistency. For instance, Knockdown will show in this circle nearly without fail, but not Flames of Devotion.

 

I get that these are bugs, but consider this feedback...I see an awesome combat system beneath these glitches, and I want to try it!

Edited October 14, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[Lephys]

maybe put down the status bar at the bottom of portraits

 

-image-

Either that, or just have some kind of press-and-hold toggle key to display status information above characters' heads. And/or show it while paused.

 

That and engagements/targets, etc. You could have quite extensive visual indicators for all this, and just only show them when you're actually, voluntarily thinking "Hmm, hang on... lemme see who all's attacking whom, again, at the moment. *Pause/press-key*"

 

Then, have intuitive "this guy just engaged this guy" cues in combat, when things happen, so that you don't have to get all your info from pausing and looking at the extremely verbose while-paused indicators.