"No Bad Builds" a failure in practice?

[Rostere]

This is my greatest worry about the game. Usually "no bad builds" means "only bland builds". I want to be able to make characters which are really impaired in various ways during character creation. Additionally, I want to be forced to make them impaired in some way if I make them great at something.

[Shdy314]

After an extended absence, I've been lurking the Beta forums for the last day or two, and I have a question for some of the...responses about the attribute system.

 

While it is clear that (theoretically), some attributes may have comparatively diminished usefulness, can this be attributed to scenario exposure? I see numerous complaints about the uselessness of Resolve and Constitution to many characters. Are there enemies in the Beta which have sufficient attacks (ranged, magical, or otherwise) which can target these attributes? Are there instances within the Beta where attributes have significance beyond combat such as dialogue, crafting, "cut-scene" choices?, etc?

Well the biggest danger is probably AOE (especially ranged) effects from enemies. But it is really hard to say right now. Common bug is that the game keeps switching to easy or is permanently stuck on easy? Not quite sure. HA! Anyways haven't seen anyone be able to spam those so it's not likely to drop people with average con. 

 

Definitely better AI can put your back line in more danger so AI will never compare to player I and I think with the right management and CC you can avoid most danger.

 

Like Sensuki said AI currently is more brain dead than usual. Very common for betas especially so early.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[Corto81]

The AI actually is the reason why you don't need to put any CON on ranged characters, pretty much nothing ends up attacking them.

 

Not exactly the case in the IE games, ESPECIALLY in BG2 where you had fear, hold, confusion, smart AI targeting, and all sorts of nasty save or bad things happen effects and stuff.

 

Assuming the AI gets "fixed"... I still don't think it fixes the problem of one stat being way too important to pass on and some of the rest being a bit rubbish, really.

I really don't see a reason why cleric wouldn't benefit from "wisdom"  or rogues/archers from dexterity, or why mages shouldn't get spellpower from INT,...

Rather than absolutely everything that matters in combat coming from Might.

[Shdy314]

 

The AI actually is the reason why you don't need to put any CON on ranged characters, pretty much nothing ends up attacking them.

 

Not exactly the case in the IE games, ESPECIALLY in BG2 where you had fear, hold, confusion, smart AI targeting, and all sorts of nasty save or bad things happen effects and stuff.

 

Assuming the AI gets "fixed"... I still don't think it fixes the problem of one stat being way too important to pass on and some of the rest being a bit rubbish, really.

I really don't see a reason why cleric wouldn't benefit from "wisdom"  or rogues/archers from dexterity, or why mages shouldn't get spellpower from INT,...

Rather than absolutely everything that matters in combat coming from Might.

 

You dont know what you are talking about. Dex is also very important. It is not only Might that matters. Int isnt good for its AOE but the duration buff is nice for party/self buffs and DOTs.

 

It is Resolve and Perception that are the king of dump stats currently. Nothing seems to be attacking will yet. AI is too stupid to go after people in the back and interrupts also seem to be doing nothing. Or if they are then nothing that matters.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[Sensuki]

One of the reasons why attributes are a bit disappointing is because the Lead Designer actually does not like attributes in general. He has in the past taken snipes at other designers who design the attribute system before the rest of the game systems and in the case of Pillars of Eternity has done the opposite.

 

All of the game systems were in place before he decided to design attributes.

 

While not necessarily a bad thing per se, these facts alone are part of the reason why attributes feel inconsequential in general.

 

I believe he is also not interested in attributes having much of an impact. An example: A Level 1 PE Fighter gets +25 Accuracy, but the maximum accuracy you can get from Dex is +20. In D&D, at first level your attribute basically determines how good you are at stuff. Fighters get a +1 to BAB (or Thaco in 2E) but they get up to +5 attack bonus from Strength in D&D (and I think -3 to THACO from a 18/00 STR in 2E) - much more than a +1 at 1st level.

 

INT probably has the most impact atm, but that's mostly due to AoE Sizes actually scaling properly with attributes, whereas the others don't really make as much of a difference as that.

 

Some sort of staggered point buy would make Racial and Cultural bonuses matter, so that their +1/+2/-1 is "worth more" than the sum of their points.

 

I made some threads a while ago about Attribute Theory if anyone is interested in historicals:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64712-attribute-theory/

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64891-attribute-questionnaire/

 

You can also see what the attribute system looked like previously.

 

One of the issues with the attribute design is that they are kinda D&D inspired, but not really. Josh has taken defenses out of the mix, inspired by D&D 4th and 5th editions. Action Speed is tied into the armor system. This leaves us with very few combat stats to play around with.

 

Karkarov keeps going on about how a five attribute system would be better, but six attributes are pretty much locked in due to their use in scripted interactions and dialogues.

 

I believe this system can be done properly, it just takes a bit of thinking and perhaps some concessions of the design constraints listed in the linked threads.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shdy314]

Some sort of staggered point buy would make Racial and Cultural bonuses matter.

Ugh. Why would you want them to matter? Classes forcing race choices for optimization is one of the things I hate most in DnD.

[Mrakvampire]

 

Some sort of staggered point buy would make Racial and Cultural bonuses matter.

Ugh. Why would you want them to matter? Classes forcing race choices for optimization is one of the things I hate most in DnD.

 

 

If they doesn't matter then you should remove them totally. Adding something in system that doesn't matter - is bad game design.

[Namutree]

 

 

Some sort of staggered point buy would make Racial and Cultural bonuses matter.

Ugh. Why would you want them to matter? Classes forcing race choices for optimization is one of the things I hate most in DnD.

 

 

If they doesn't matter then you should remove them totally. Adding something in system that doesn't matter - is bad game design.

 

Why? Who does it hurt? Yes they play only a bit different, but that doesn't mean it needs to go. Getting rid of race modifiers would be like killing a mocking bird.

[Sensuki]

I agree with his last bit, adding a system that doesn't matter is bad design.

[Fearabbit]

I agree with his last bit, adding a system that doesn't matter is bad design.

 

But it matters, only not as much as you want. Which is exactly the sweet spot for me. You're not forced to play a certain race, but playing a certain race has a nice little bonus.

[Namutree]

I agree with his last bit, adding a system that doesn't matter is bad design.

It was probably a waste of development time to make it, but getting rid of it is as much a waste.

[Sensuki]

To make what?

 

I've said this quite a few times but racial and cultural modifiers basically mean this

 

Your stat minimum is 1-2 points higher/lower and your maximum is 1-2 points higher/lower

 

That's not very interesting to me.

 

I enjoy attributes, rarely do the systems create interesting choices (they do in games like Fallout etc). This system can be a different style of interesting to a game like Fallout or Age of Decadence, but it still needs work, and perhaps some constraint concession.

[Shdy314]

I agree with his last bit, adding a system that doesn't matter is bad design.

To be clear we are talking about race and cultural choice right? I want it to matter for roleplaying. It is just a cosmetic choice that will come up in dialogue. It informs my character to know how I fit into the world and where I come from. It shouldn't be I am a Wood Elf from Aedyr so Im the best druid. Suck it everyone else! I already think it is too much. Look at the Wood Elf in beta. Are you a ranged combatant? Great enjoy your race. Want to melee? No idiot you are doing it wrong! No racial bonus for you. That is terrible DnD design.

 

 

To make what?

 

I've said this quite a few times but racial and cultural modifiers basically mean this

 

Your stat minimum is 1-2 points higher/lower and your maximum is 1-2 points higher/lower

 

That's not very interesting to me.

 

I enjoy attributes, rarely do the systems create interesting choices (they do in games like Fallout etc). This system can be a different style of interesting to a game like Fallout or Age of Decadence, but it still needs work, and perhaps some constraint concession.

 

You are forgetting the racial super powers. Many livestreamers were very taken with the Moon godlike's special power.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[Ahvz]

 

Examples of those games, please.

 

*rolls eyes* You respond with asking me for a list of every game (RPG) that doesn't have D&D style stats, instead of addressing the fact that most people can read the description for Might and adapt accordingly - and that younger players who haven't spent years playing D&D games will adapt faster than you. That was actually the point of my response, btw - when you said 'if we don't get it, those 17 year olds won't'. But hey, don't let me stop you from focusing on only one aspect of my post.

 

Dungeon Defenders - RPG, hero stats split into damage/health/casting rate/speed

Borderlands 2 - RPG, no stat system at all. 

Skyrim - RPG, the stat system just increases your available HP/MP/Stamina.

Mass Effect - class system

 

And that's not counting other games that have character progression that don't really label themselves as RPGs, like Payday 2, Dishonored, and Sanctum 2. And it's hardly a comprehensive list because I don't play a huge variety of games. 

[Sensuki]

You are forgetting the racial super powers. Many livestreamers were very taken with the Moon godlike's special power.

I am talking about attribute bonuses only. I am aware that all races have a special ability.

 

To be clear we are talking about race and cultural choice right? I want it to matter for roleplaying.

It already does that. I am talking about System Design.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Sensuki

[GreyFox]

I was never a fan of the way the stats were described and the banter here has me greatly worried...

 

Might encompassing physical/magical "power" was always a "what?" for me anyway.

 

Another user said this in a previous post but there is a reason those are usually defined by separate stats. I also don't like how no attributes really help your defense(ability to AVOID getting hit).

[hairyscotsman2]

 

I would like to see an example of modern western rpg that uses something non-intuitive like "Might".

 

In its present state, it would probably be clearer to call it "Power," which carries less association with purely physical strength. 

 

But then players only used to RuneQuest might say they are confused as, for their sensibilities, POW shouldn't be giving a damage bonus to melee.

[PrimeJunta]

I think it'd help if they just made the race/culture attribute bonuses a bit bigger. +2 or +3 means more than +1. Perhaps reduce the free pool of attribute points accordingly.

[Rostere]

From what I've seen, there sure seem to be an awful lot of attribute points lying around at start.

[Shdy314]

 

You are forgetting the racial super powers. Many livestreamers were very taken with the Moon godlike's special power.

I am talking about attribute bonuses only. I am aware that all races have a special ability.

 

To be clear we are talking about race and cultural choice right? I want it to matter for roleplaying.

It already does that. I am talking about System Design.

 

You lost me. It is not good design to build bonuses into races and cultures so that you screw yourself choosing the class they don't synergize with. THAT is bad design. The wood elf is probably the worst offender because of the racial ability not the attribute bonus. Melee classes need not apply. I don't particularly care about attributes because the 1-2 is not a huge deal but any higher and it will be especially if resolve and perception don't get fixed.

[Starwars]

I'd be glad to have cultures even if they did not change any stats at all, as long as there is *some* response to it in-game. I do not see how it is bad design to have them in and not have them matter much stats-wise. Stats are but *one* aspect of this game, there is in my opinion no need to have absolutely everything you choose be reflected in a big way in the stats.

[Sensuki]

You lost me. It is not good design to build bonuses into races and cultures so that you screw yourself choosing the class they don't synergize with. THAT is bad design. The wood elf is probably the worst offender because of the racial ability not the attribute bonus. Melee classes need not apply. I don't particularly care about attributes because the 1-2 is not a huge deal but any higher and it will be especially if resolve and perception don't get fixed.

The issues you describe wouldn't apply here because the attributes are ideally supposed to be useful for every class in PE. In D&D this is not the case.

[PrimeJunta]

You lost me. It is not good design to build bonuses into races and cultures so that you screw yourself choosing the class they don't synergize with. THAT is bad design. The wood elf is probably the worst offender because of the racial ability not the attribute bonus. Melee classes need not apply. I don't particularly care about attributes because the 1-2 is not a huge deal but any higher and it will be especially if resolve and perception don't get fixed.

 

Anything that discourages people from playing elves is a pro in my book.

[Shdy314]

 

You lost me. It is not good design to build bonuses into races and cultures so that you screw yourself choosing the class they don't synergize with. THAT is bad design. The wood elf is probably the worst offender because of the racial ability not the attribute bonus. Melee classes need not apply. I don't particularly care about attributes because the 1-2 is not a huge deal but any higher and it will be especially if resolve and perception don't get fixed.

The issues you describe wouldn't apply here because the attributes are ideally supposed to be useful for every class in PE. In D&D this is not the case.

 

WHAT? I just specifically brought up the wood elf from the backer beta. You know their racial power right? It is an issue.

Even if they do manage to make every stat equally useful to every class (they won't) then you are still getting shafted when you want to play that race/culture you like but you want to try out a high int build on such and such class. It is bad in DnD. It is bad in every stupid system that has used it.

 

 

You lost me. It is not good design to build bonuses into races and cultures so that you screw yourself choosing the class they don't synergize with. THAT is bad design. The wood elf is probably the worst offender because of the racial ability not the attribute bonus. Melee classes need not apply. I don't particularly care about attributes because the 1-2 is not a huge deal but any higher and it will be especially if resolve and perception don't get fixed.

 

Anything that discourages people from playing elves is a pro in my book. 

HEHE. Yeah I am a bit sick of elves myself but at least PoE elves are not the "screw you we are better at everything (with appropriate subrace) master race". Players should be able to play the race and class they want without getting the shaft.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[Mrakvampire]

 

 

Examples of those games, please.

 

*rolls eyes* You respond with asking me for a list of every game (RPG) that doesn't have D&D style stats, instead of addressing the fact that most people can read the description for Might and adapt accordingly - and that younger players who haven't spent years playing D&D games will adapt faster than you. That was actually the point of my response, btw - when you said 'if we don't get it, those 17 year olds won't'. But hey, don't let me stop you from focusing on only one aspect of my post.

 

Dungeon Defenders - RPG, hero stats split into damage/health/casting rate/speed

Borderlands 2 - RPG, no stat system at all. 

Skyrim - RPG, the stat system just increases your available HP/MP/Stamina.

Mass Effect - class system

 

And that's not counting other games that have character progression that don't really label themselves as RPGs, like Payday 2, Dishonored, and Sanctum 2. And it's hardly a comprehensive list because I don't play a huge variety of games. 

 

 

All games that you've mentioned have INTUITIVE STAT SYSTEM. IN-TU-IT-IV-E. You don't need to read manual to understand that stat called 'damage' should obviously boost... DAMAGE.

You understand what I'm saying, or I need hamster-English translator?