A "How to" on Revamping the 6 Attribute System!

[TrueMenace]

Ok, so I have a very interesting idea on how we can revamp and revitalize the 6 Attribute System. As we all know, Intellect and Resolve are "dump" stats. Might, Dexterity, and Constitution are REALLY good stats for all classes. So how can we make EACH attribute interesting for EVERY class? Well, read on and find out!

 

First, I will thoroughly list what each of the 6 Attributes currently do:

 

1. Might (MIG): +X% Damage & Healing (+2%/point spent)

• During interactions, used for: intimidating displays and acts of brute force...
• Bonus to Fortitude Defense

 

2. Constitution (CON): +X% Stamina & Health (+2%/point spent)

• "...sometimes checked to withstand pain or endure a physically taxing ordeal..."
• Bonus to Fortitude Defense

 

3. Dexterity (DEX): +X Accuracy (+1/point spent)

• Represents a character's hand-eye coordination, balance, and grace. It is used for sleight-of-hand and fast reactions in Interactions.
• Bonus to Reflex Defense

 

4. Perception (PER): +X% Interrupt (+3%/point spent)

• "...represents a character's senses as well as their instinctive ability to pick up on details..."
• In Interactions, it can be used to catch a liar, make an observant comment about someone, or to notice things off in the background. 
• Bonus to Reflex Defense

 

5. Intellect (INT): +X% Duration & Area of Effect (+5%/point spent)

• Represents the logic and reasoning capabilities of the character.
• In Interactions, it is used for "...deduction, sudden realizations, and problem-solving..."
• Bonus to Will Defense

 

6. Resolve (RES): +X% Concentration (+3%/point spent)

• Key Words: Internal drive, determination, and emotional intensity a character projects to others...
• During Interactions, used for: Mental intimidation, leadership, & convincing performances...
• Bonus to Will defense.

__________________________________________________________________________________

 

Ok, now that I have explained what each attribute does, I can finally get into explaining what is currently wrong with the above system. 

 

First and foremost, the primary goal of PoE's class/attribute system is to make any character VIABLE.

 

Thus, when going into character-creation, everyone should have 2 questions they need to ask themselves.

 

1. What do I want to role-play as?

2. Is my type of character equally viable both in combat and out of combat? 

 

The currently implementation of the attribute system when creating a character doesn't really satisfy these 2 central questions. 

 

For instance, let's say i want to make a Sherlock-Holmes type of character that happens to be a Monk. This character needs to be good at what a Monk does which is to take a beating...build up wounds, and then transform that suffering into damage in combat. Also, he needs to be a good problem-solver and have great deductive abilities. With the current system in place, I would want pretty much everything because I need damage from MIG, health from CON, DEX for accuracy, and INT for its use in interactions. However, I really don't need PER and RES, screw those stats! 

 

Ideally, I really should be investing in CON and PER. CON symbolizes the character's ability to withstand pain. Something a Monk would like right? Also, PER is perfect for rounding out his ability to fully become a Sherlock Holmes type of character. 

 

Now we need to ask ourselves, how can we change these attributes to create this Monk/Sherlock-Holmes type of character? 

 

It's quite simple actually. 

 

Each of the 6 Attributes need to do MULTIPLE things, whether superfluous or unique to any other attribute.

 

At the moment, each of the 6 attributes are way to focused on 1 specific goal. For example, Might gives every class straight up damage and healing. But everyone wants that! But that goes against the 2 fundamental pillars of creating a character, primarily in role-playing a specific type of character. 

 

What we need to do is have every attribute do multiple things so that we can really flesh out any type of character we want and have it be viable both in combat and out of combat.

 

I'm going to propose a VERY basic example of this and by no means have I really thought about the "balance" of it. I'm merely trying to clarify what I mean.

__________________________________________________________________________________

 

Below is a VERY ROUGH example of the revamped 6 Attribute System.  

 

1. Might (MIG):

• +Damage
• +Bonus Damage to Large one-handed & two-handed weapons
• +Healing
• +Stamina
• +Health
• +Bigger Inventory
• +Movement Speed
• Bonus to Fortitude Defense

2. Constitution (CON):

• +Bonus damage to using fists/legs only
• +Healing
• +Stamina
• +Health
• Less easily Fatigued
• Bonus to Fortitude Defense

 

3. Dexterity (DEX):

• +Damage
• +Accuracy
• +Bonus Damage to Fast one-handed weapons
• +Bonus Damage to Projectile Weapons
• +Crit Chance
• +Movement Speed
• +Crit Damage
• Bonus to Reflex Defense

 

4. Perception (PER):

• +Damage
• +Increases the intrinsic bonus of every weapon type (e.g. Extends the already extended reach of Quarterstaves)
• +Interrupt
• +Accuracy
• +Crit Chance
• Bonus to Reflex Defense

 

5. Intellect (INT):

• +Damage
• +Accuracy
• +Bonus Damage to Wands, Rods, Sceptres
• +Duration & Area of Effect
• Bonus to Will Defense

 

6. Resolve (RES):

• +Crit Chance
• +Crit Damage
• +Accuracy
• +Interrupt
• +Concentration
• +Less easily Fatigued
• +Duration of positive status effects from food, potions, scrolls, etc.
• Big Bonus to Will Defense

P.S. I didn't list what each attribute does for interactions because they remain the same as what I listed above. 

 

So let's test this new revamped system out.

 

I would need CON, PER, INT as my 3 major stats for my Sherlock Homes/Monk character. Throw in a bit of Might, Dex, and quite a few into RES.

 

So...what do you think? If we allow each attribute to contribute to damage in some way while adding in unique perks, will that make a more robust and balanced system that allows us to make any type of build viable both in and out of combat?

 

Let me know...

 

(Sorry if there are grammatical errors or if this entire post made no sense  ).

Edited August 20, 2014 by TrueMenace

[TrueMenace]

What do people think?

[Tartantyco]

That I can't be bothered reading that.

[Billy O]

I certainly like it much better than what currently exists. I was creating a character in my head as I went down your list.

[IndiraLightfoot]

It's pretty interesting. It's pretty simulationist, and it does indeed make all stats really valuable for probably all classes and weapon choices, etc.

Its biggest flaw is that the synergetic effects are pretty massive all across the board, but in a weird way that could be seen as a strength too, since it would give us a plethora of fun options to try out.

[PrimeJunta]

Too complicated IMO. Turns the attributes into a soup which semi-arbitrarily adjust the final combat stats that actually make a difference.

[Osvir]

Ideas/Thoughts on top of them.

+ = most bonus on these (internally in the stat)
- = least bonus on these (internally in the stat)
this text = unnecessary or undermines main strengths of other attributes, abilities, talents.
 

1. Might (MIG):

• ++Damage
• +Bonus Damage to Large one-handed & two-handed weapons ~// There is a weapon system already.
• ++Healing
• Stamina
• +Health
• +Bigger Inventory // There's an Unlimited Stash
• -Movement Speed 
• -Bonus to Fortitude Defense

2. Constitution (CON):

• +Healing
• ++Stamina
• ++Health
• +Bonus to Fortitude Defense

 

3. Dexterity (DEX):

• -Damage
• +Accuracy
• +Crit Chance
• ++Movement Speed
• +Crit Damage
• +Bonus to Reflex Defense

 

4. Perception (PER):

• -Damage
• +Increases the intrinsic bonus of every weapon type (e.g. Extends the already extended reach of Quarterstaves) translation below:
• +Bonus accuracy with all weapon types
• ++Interrupt
• ++Accuracy
• ++Crit Chance
• -Bonus to Reflex Defense

 

5. Intellect (INT):

• -Damage
• +Accuracy
• ++Duration & Area of Effect
• +Lore
• -Bonus to Will Defense

 

6. Resolve (RES):

• -Crit Chance
• ++Crit Damage
• +Accuracy
• +Interrupt
• ++Concentration
• +Attack Speed/Cooldown/ATBSystemEffect
• +Duration
• +Big Bonus to Will Defense

 

Whilst doing this I was wondering... could Attributes affect Skills? (example: 12 points in Dexterity gives +1 Atheltics). 10(+2) [Attribute] = (+1) [skill]

EDIT: I think the system might be a bit too complex, and everything doing everything makes every stat a dumpstat. But that's not to say that they could do everything, but just at different values.

E.G. Both Resolve and Dexterity have "Crit Damage", why does RES have ++ and DEX only +? Both still have it, but one just gives it a little bit better. That also makes every stat important and diversified. Just a bit complex to implement. I don't recall the word but I semi-recall the definition "when you do something more complex than it has to be".

Edited August 20, 2014 by Osvir

[TrueMenace]

That I can't be bothered reading that.

Thanks for your contribution to this discussion.

[Fluffle]

Whilst doing this I was wondering... could Attributes affect Skills? (example: 12 points in Dexterity gives +1 Atheltics). 10(+2) [Attribute] = (+1) [skill]

 

Ah, I was wondering this anyway. Is there any connection at the moment between skills and attributes.

For example would a character with very low Dexterity but high Athletics make sense?

 

Shouldn't Athletics be influenced (positive or negative bonus) by Dexterity?

Maybe Survival should be influenced by Constitution?

And so on ?

[Osvir]

I don't know, but some of the Skills could make sense together with some of the Attributes, and giving a slight bonus to one of the Skills.

Example/Concept:
1) Dexterity 10 = +0 Points into Level 1 Athletics 0/3
2) Dexterity 12 = +1 Points into Level 1 Athletics 1/3
3) Dexterity 16 = +3 Points into Level 2 Athletics 0/6

It'd give some of the Attributes more value.

[TrueMenace]

Ideas/Thoughts on top of them.

 

+ = most bonus on these (internally in the stat)

- = least bonus on these (internally in the stat)

this text = unnecessary or undermines main strengths of other attributes, abilities, talents.

 

1. Might (MIG):

• ++Damage
• +Bonus Damage to Large one-handed & two-handed weapons ~// There is a weapon system already.
• ++Healing
• Stamina
• +Health
• +Bigger Inventory // There's an Unlimited Stash
• -Movement Speed 
• -Bonus to Fortitude Defense

2. Constitution (CON):

• +Healing
• ++Stamina
• ++Health
• +Bonus to Fortitude Defense

 

3. Dexterity (DEX):

• -Damage
• +Accuracy
• +Crit Chance
• ++Movement Speed
• +Crit Damage
• +Bonus to Reflex Defense

 

4. Perception (PER):

• -Damage
• +Increases the intrinsic bonus of every weapon type (e.g. Extends the already extended reach of Quarterstaves) translation below:
• +Bonus accuracy with all weapon types
• ++Interrupt
• ++Accuracy
• ++Crit Chance
• -Bonus to Reflex Defense

 

5. Intellect (INT):

• -Damage
• +Accuracy
• ++Duration & Area of Effect
• +Lore
• -Bonus to Will Defense

 

6. Resolve (RES):

• -Crit Chance
• ++Crit Damage
• +Accuracy
• +Interrupt
• ++Concentration
• +Attack Speed/Cooldown/ATBSystemEffect
• +Duration
• +Big Bonus to Will Defense

 

Whilst doing this I was wondering... could Attributes affect Skills? (example: 12 points in Dexterity gives +1 Atheltics). 10(+2) [Attribute] = (+1) [skill]

 

EDIT: I think the system might be a bit too complex, and everything doing everything makes every stat a dumpstat. But that's not to say that they could do everything, but just at different values.

 

E.G. Both Resolve and Dexterity have "Crit Damage", why does RES have ++ and DEX only +? Both still have it, but one just gives it a little bit better. That also makes every stat important and diversified. Just a bit complex to implement. I don't recall the word but I semi-recall the definition "when you do something more complex than it has to be".

Thanks for your feedback.

 

As I said in my initial post, I wasn't going for balance when I listed all those bonuses under each attribute. I just wanted to explain what I meant. 

 

You are completely right that the system shouldn't be more complex than it has to be. 

 

One thing to keep in mind is that these attributes play a big part in how YOU want to role-play your PC. At the moment, everyone is disregarding Perception and Resolve because simply that don't matter as much in combat. 

 

Ultimately, you want to be able to role-play your character and not have it be gimped. If you think about it, if you maxed out PER and RES, you would be amazing outside of combat, but in combat not so much.

 

Maybe what I listed was a bit overly complicated than it has to be.

 

Maybe we should all work on drafting all the bonuses under each attribute? 

 

I like how you were able to tie attributes and skills as it can give more incentives to put points into that attribute. 

 

I may have been wrong to say that each stat should give damage, but maybe have MIG, DEX, and INT give damage to their respective weapon types?

[hairyscotsman2]

OP. Having Int increase both damage and AoE and duration goes against the design intent. Character building should create a stat divide between varying builds for each class, not enforce any one stat to a class. For intents of their design, the current system is much better than your suggestion.

[Osvir]

I may have been wrong to say that each stat should give damage, but maybe have MIG, DEX, and INT give damage to their respective weapon types?

 

Not entirely, if Obsidian would put some of the "Weapon Style" into Skills instead, MIG, DEX and INT could affect the values on those "Weapon Skills".

 

In the Infinity Engine games, when you leveled up, you could distribute points to your weapons (profficiency). So, making Weapon Styles into upgradable Weapon Skills instead could benefit character creation, balance and diversity as well.

 

EDIT: further brainstorm:

Maybe even taking some of the passives from different classes and toss them into the Skill system as well. Race choice and Class choice affecting Skills too. This way a Priest could get a Cipher passive, and thus be able to psuedo-"Multi-Class". Just use the 100% value of what the Passive is now as the "max level" of Skill, and then chop it up into levels~ making it stronger the more you focus your points into it.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Osvir

[Matt516]

Great suggestions. I think there's definitely some need for the attributes to be reworked, and I'm a fan of a lot of your suggestions.

[bob54386]

I think this helps with building a Tony Shaloub (get it? Sherlock Monk? heh. heh.) character from a Role-Playing perspective but I'm not sure it would add combat variety to a character which is what I'm personally after. I don't think Role Players lose much by moving 5 points from one stat to another so they can meet their theme - the power curve isn't that high, and a well designed system should mean average effectiveness stays constant.

 

A homogenized system like this suggestion doesn't change the playstyle of your characters if you adjust the attributes-- there's that much less reason to play through a second time for a different experience.

 

From tactical build design perspective, each attribute really needs to do something no other attribute does so that you can build a wizard to fill two different roles based almost exclusively on stats.  As long as it's designed well, any stat distribution to meet the needs of a theme character should be comparably powerful to a tactically designed character, just with a less clearly defined niche in the party.

 

I'm interested in making some interrupt builds myself, I think perception could actually be a decent stat as long as the effect is tuned right -- it sounds like it's basically CC built into your attributes.  Between beta bugs and work I haven't been able to experiment with this as much as I'd like.

 

I do agree with the suggestion here and in other threads to tie Resolve into DT and attack speed.  Concentration is far too conditional of a stat to ever boost -- it's only useful IF you're the character taking aggro and IF the attacker has a decent interrupt chance.

[Mayama]

Int is seriously not a dump stat, the duration increase is huge.

[Namutree]

Your premise is flawed. Intellect isn't a dump stat. Every class has a use for it.

[Hormalakh]

It seems to me that a lot of people are looking at attributes from one perspective and Obsidian is looking at it from another:

 

Many people seem to want attributes to be part of the customization of their OVERALL character, allowing this system to define the absolute limits of their character: a genetic limit on their character if you will. The thought is that the attributes affect and defines how high or low every aspect of their character's details can go: skills, combat abilities, dialogue options, scripted interaction, defenses, etc

 

Obsidian, on the other hand, looks at it solely as an "added" touch to the character and wants players to define their characters by 1) what they do in game 2) the class they choose 3) the skills they choose and SOMETIMES 4) the attributes they chose in the beginning of the game.

[Namutree]

I've posted this on other threads, but I'll post it here too:

 

I've looked into this issue and I believe I have a simple solution to poe's attribute woes:

 

A) Might should not affect healing rate. Damage and fortitude defense is enough. Right now might is op. This will fix it.

 

B) Resolve should affect healing instead of might. Resolve is both under-powered and not useful enough for every class. This will fix it.

 

C) Perception needs to be given a very minor chance to increase your crit rate. I'd say about +0.25%. This will fix perception.

 

Give us 2 less attribute points

 

Done. Poe will now have pretty balanced attributes.

 

For the OP: Poe's attributes don't need to be revamped; just tweaked.

[Cabamacadaf]

I think giving accuracy to perception instead of dexterity would make a lot of sense, and maybe give speed or something to dexterity instead.