racial and culture bonuses need more significance

[DigitalCrack]

I don't feel like racial bonuses are as significant or meaningful as they could be. I guess something a bit more juicy for each sub race would be awesome. A bonus that actually makes it a tough choice on what race to play cause they are all meaningful instead of a few stat differences. It would be an added bonus if cultures had a little more meat to their bonuses as well.

Edited August 20, 2014 by DigitalCrack

[Shdy314]

That sounds awful. I hate being encouraged to min/max my race and culture. The incentives currently are already annoying.

[Sensuki]

The problem here is the point buy system is not staggered, so the bonuses from Race and Culture are worth exactly the same amount as a point in the point buy system, making them irrelevant apart from the higher/lower minimums and maximums.

[Longknife]

Drastic differences = Always better

 

It encourages replay value and makes each character feel unique. Perhaps if every race had a passive sort of skill that gave them some sort of bonus towards a particular area of the game, for example let's say Elves perform all skills faster (cast spells fast or attack faster) whereas Dwarves get a respectable bonus to DT or the like. Just spitballing lame examples here, but I think differences in that kind of direction would be good.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Longknife

[DigitalCrack]

Drastic differences = Always better

 

It encourages replay value and makes each character feel unique. Perhaps if every race had a passive sort of skill that gave them some sort of bonus towards a particular area of the game, for example let's say Elves perform all skills faster (cast spells fast or attack faster) whereas Dwarves get a respectable bonus to DT or the like. Just spitballing lame examples here, but I think differences in that kind of direction would be good.

Making them feel unique is the key.  Cause they don't right now.

[Panteleimon]

If you're going to put more emphasis on something, for goodness' sake put it on CULTURE, not race. The world of PoE has already taken brave strides away from the infantile "Elf-landia" or "Orcopolis" of other fantasy media and put together legitimate nations where race is mostly a minor component.

 

Larger cultural bonuses/penalties would not bother me.

 

EDIT: I agree with Tartantyco, however, that emphasis should be placed on how they effect the character's interaction with the world rather than attributes.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Panteleimon

[Tartantyco]

I'm not really comfortable with attribute bonuses for race and culture at all. It's not a really big deal, but it always ends up with players picking races because they want the stat bonus. In IE games you don't make an archer character and not pick elf. It makes the race choice irrelevant, and could just as easily be traded out with a few more attribute points for the same effect.

 

Race and culture effects should be in the character's interaction with the world, not attributes.

[PrimeHydra]

Interesting to see how split people are on this point.

 

Maybe minor bonuses are a good compromise. I certainly don't want to feel like I have to play a Dwarf from Wherever if I want the baddinest-assinest fighter. But the culture stage of character creation adds depth, and I was happy to see it provided bonuses--albeit minor ones. Otherwise it's just cosmetic, so what's the point? It might color conversations...meh.

 

So, I'll be unpopular with both sides and say that minor race/culture bonuses are probably the way to go.  As it stands, they might be a little too minor.

[CatatonicMan]

I don't think culture/race needs to have anything more than minor attribute bonuses, but that assumes that the story will take care of the rest.

 

If you're a death godlike, I expect the game world to treat you like a death godlike.

[war:head]

I'm with the interaction crowd here. Race and culture should influence how the world reacts to and interacts with the character, not the stats. At least not to a significant extend.

[Kronos]

I don't feel like racial bonuses are as significant or meaningful as they could be. I guess something a bit more juicy for each sub race would be awesome. A bonus that actually makes it a tough choice on what race to play cause they are all meaningful instead of a few stat differences. It would be an added bonus if cultures had a little more meat to their bonuses as well.

I agree with this. In my opinion it adds more diversity between various races and cultures. It adds more flavour, differences don't just have to be stat related as well. Differences can affect interactions in the world, various resistances/weakness. Go wild.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Kronos

[Cthulchulain]

Modest racial stat bonuses are logical, though -- biologically, I don't see how you could expect an Aumaua and an Orlan to have exactly the same attribute ranges (physically, at any rate). Anyway, they only make a difference for min-maxers, so long as the stat point total is the same and the bonuses/penalties limited.

 

That said, somehow I feel that having cultural bonuses to stats is a bit strange. It feels more natural to have the background (drifter/labourer) etc provide skill and/or stat bonuses (probably just skill, to avoid another source of stat modifications). Then again, it's sort of nice to have some part of the character creation be pure flavour, though I'd be happy enough if culture was it.

[Mayama]

I'm with the interaction crowd here. Race and culture should influence how the world reacts to and interacts with the character, not the stats. At least not to a significant extend.

Yeah I agree its more logical that your origin influences your surrounding but for me it feels kinda weird to give everyone that was born at the same place +2 strength or something similar.

[Wintersong]

I don't feel like racial bonuses are as significant or meaningful as they could be. I guess something a bit more juicy for each sub race would be awesome. A bonus that actually makes it a tough choice on what race to play cause they are all meaningful instead of a few stat differences. It would be an added bonus if cultures had a little more meat to their bonuses as well.

Er... don't race already have racial abilities in addition to stat bonuses? Like Moon Godlike having healing weaves as they reach certain Stamina thresholds?  And Fire ones doing heat damage on being hit once getting 50% or less Stamina?

 

I read the thread and everybody seems to talk just about stats.

 

The culture stat bonus seems quite a generalization about each area. The background of each character would seem a better place to place an extra stat bonus.

[Shdy314]

 

I don't feel like racial bonuses are as significant or meaningful as they could be. I guess something a bit more juicy for each sub race would be awesome. A bonus that actually makes it a tough choice on what race to play cause they are all meaningful instead of a few stat differences. It would be an added bonus if cultures had a little more meat to their bonuses as well.

Er... don't race already have racial abilities in addition to stat bonuses? Like Moon Godlike having healing weaves as they reach certain Stamina thresholds?  And Fire ones doing heat damage on being hit once getting 50% or less Stamina?

 

I read the thread and everybody seems to talk just about stats.

 

The culture stat bonus seems quite a generalization about each area. The background of each character would seem a better place to place an extra stat bonus.

 

In another thread I complained about the stupid wood elf bonus forcing you to be ranged only with them.

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

I don't feel like racial bonuses are as significant or meaningful as they could be. I guess something a bit more juicy for each sub race would be awesome. A bonus that actually makes it a tough choice on what race to play cause they are all meaningful instead of a few stat differences. It would be an added bonus if cultures had a little more meat to their bonuses as well.

Er... don't race already have racial abilities in addition to stat bonuses? Like Moon Godlike having healing weaves as they reach certain Stamina thresholds? And Fire ones doing heat damage on being hit once getting 50% or less Stamina?

 

I read the thread and everybody seems to talk just about stats.

 

The culture stat bonus seems quite a generalization about each area. The background of each character would seem a better place to place an extra stat bonus.

Yeah people are talking too much about stat bonuses. Ideally I liked whoever mentioned only cultures giving stat bonuses and then do something more with subraces not stat related.

[Wintersong]

 

 

I don't feel like racial bonuses are as significant or meaningful as they could be. I guess something a bit more juicy for each sub race would be awesome. A bonus that actually makes it a tough choice on what race to play cause they are all meaningful instead of a few stat differences. It would be an added bonus if cultures had a little more meat to their bonuses as well.

Er... don't race already have racial abilities in addition to stat bonuses? Like Moon Godlike having healing weaves as they reach certain Stamina thresholds?  And Fire ones doing heat damage on being hit once getting 50% or less Stamina?

 

I read the thread and everybody seems to talk just about stats.

 

The culture stat bonus seems quite a generalization about each area. The background of each character would seem a better place to place an extra stat bonus.

 

In another thread I complained about the stupid wood elf bonus forcing you to be ranged only with them.

 

I'd say that it encourages you to be ranged. Probably I'd prefer a more generic ability but from a tactical point of view, it's not a bad idea to have everybody with melee and ranged weapons anyways.

 

The good thing is that races get a stat bonus, which for many will be more important that the racial ability bonus.

[Cabamacadaf]

I don't really care if they give you stat bonuses or not, but they should affect the story and dialogue more.

[Shdy314]

I'd say that it encourages you to be ranged. Probably I'd prefer a more generic ability but from a tactical point of view, it's not a bad idea to have everybody with melee and ranged weapons anyways.

 

The good thing is that races get a stat bonus, which for many will be more important that the racial ability bonus.

It doesn't just encourage, it literally says wood elf are ranged (whether weapons or spells) characters. Want to play melee then no bonus for you!

 

Tough to say if the stat boost is more important. Stat boost might bring an 18 to a 19 or 20 which is nice but the racial ability is unique and may provide an even better boost.

It is hard to know exactly without numbers. Is the wood elf ranged accuracy bonus +1 or +4? Even if it is +1 They are basically an extra +1 dex then ... but only if you play the way the designers want you too. That's BS. If the bonus is even higher then you are seriously screwing yourself if not using your racial ability.

 

In comparison Death godlike kill anything faster once it is down to 15% stamina whether they be melee ranged or spelled. Can we duplicate that with stats? Maybe Might but how much might? Without the numbers we can't be sure.

 

However with some races it is clearly incorrect to say the stat boosts matter more because the racial ability can offer truly unique abilities. Moon goodlike autoheal at 3 different damage thresholds! Duplicate that with stats! There aren't even spells that duplicate that! That beats a +1 stat boost in my book.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Shdy314

[Caladian]

I think a step in the right direction would be have the skill bonuses that are currently on classes moved to races/culture.  Wouldn't solve it, but would be a step in the right direction.

[Wintersong]

 

I'd say that it encourages you to be ranged. Probably I'd prefer a more generic ability but from a tactical point of view, it's not a bad idea to have everybody with melee and ranged weapons anyways.

 

The good thing is that races get a stat bonus, which for many will be more important that the racial ability bonus.

It doesn't just encourage, it literally says wood elf are ranged (whether weapons or spells) characters. Want to play melee then no bonus for you!

 

Tough to say if the stat boost is more important. Stat boost might bring an 18 to a 19 or 20 which is nice but the racial ability is unique and may provide an even better boost.

It is hard to know exactly without numbers. Is the wood elf ranged accuracy bonus +1 or +4? Even if it is +1 They are basically an extra +1 dex then ... but only if you play the way the designers want you too. That's BS. If the bonus is even higher then you are seriously screwing yourself if not using your racial ability.

 

In comparison Death godlike kill anything faster once it is down to 15% stamina whether they be melee ranged or spelled. Can we duplicate that with stats? Maybe Might but how much might? Without the numbers we can't be sure.

 

However with some races it is clearly incorrect to say the stat boosts matter more because the racial ability can offer truly unique abilities. Moon goodlike autoheal at 3 different damage thresholds! Duplicate that with stats! There aren't even spells that duplicate that! That beats a +1 stat boost in my book.

 

I get it but the thing is that the other kind of elf doesn't get a bonus ability to melee either so: does that mean that if you want to play melee, you shouldn't pick elves at all?

 

I don't think that racial bonus abilties are quite balanced but in any case, I think that they encourage certain archtypes... if you want to follow them. If you are trying to min-max, with no doubt there will be a clash of interests.

[Shdy314]

I get it but the thing is that the other kind of elf doesn't get a bonus ability to melee either so: does that mean that if you want to play melee, you shouldn't pick elves at all?

I don't think that racial bonus abilties are quite balanced but in any case, I think that they encourage certain archtypes... if you want to follow them. If you are trying to min-max, with no doubt there will be a clash of interests.

What are you talking about? Pale elves get bonus resistance to elemental effects. If they are hit with an elemental effect they take less damage. They always have that ability no matter their class or playstyle and it can help them. Its not a very good ability but it is viable for all classes. I harp on the wood elf ability because that was the one racial ability that forces a particular playstyle. The wood elf is not viable in melee. Literally anyone would be better than a wood elf in melee because their ability can help them in melee while wood elf ability can't.

 

Some encourage playstyles. Pale elves will get more use out of their ability if they are taking hits. Same with the Moon or Fire Godlike etc. Others don't encourage much at all. Everybody deals some damage so damage boost abilities work fine for everyone. They are a little better if you are focusing solely on DPS but it's minor.

It's really just the wood elf who gets completely shafted out of their ability if you dare to pick up a melee weapon. It is odd actually. Seems to go against the design goals of the game.

 

It is not about min/maxing at all. It is about making every race enjoyable no matter the role you put them in. If you play a melee pale elf and you manage to never get hit with an elemental attack the ability wasn't useless it just didn't come up. It will always be nice to have that resistance "just in case." For a melee wood elf though their ability IS useless.

 

A player shouldn't have to play a poleaxe fighter knowing they will never get the wood elf accuracy boost when every other npc/player/pc gets to enjoy having their racial ability.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Shdy314

[Wintersong]

If you play a melee pale elf and you manage to never get hit with an elemental attack the ability wasn't useless it just didn't come up.

It's useless because for all that matters, he may as well have a blank racial ability. A Fire Godlike that plays ranged of any kind and is never hit by melee, may as well have a blank. If the Death Godlike never hits someone with 15% or less of life...

 

Yes, of course that those abilities are better than an ability tied to ranged combat. Most probably, everybody will be hit by elemental stuff at some point. And no matter how well you play, the ranged Fire Godlike may find himself hit a few times in melee during his career.

 

I don't deny that and, as I said, I do think that the abilities are not balanced. But your melee wood elf can sport a bow as secondary weapon. If you finish the game without using it, it would be ok. But if at some point you had to use the bow with your wood elf fighter, you will enjoy the bonus. Which sounds much like your pale elf example. But unlike the pale elf who must wait to be hit by certain elements to use his racial ability, you can have your melee wood elf to start every encounter by shooting with a bow. Or a gun. I sure do that with my party. Still not the same feeling, I know. But secondary weapons are "just in case" too.

 

The wood elf ability isn't the best thing ever. Not when you compare it with others. I can agree with you on that. It feels weird to a point. I'd guess that Obsidian will tweak/change the abilities.

 

And a stat bonus is better than a racial ability by being a flat bonus always there. No matter if you are hit by elements, melee, if the enemy isn't at 155 or less of life, or if you use a bow/magic. That +1 MIght applies always.

[Sir Newbie]

I will give my two cents on this subject. I like the minor attributes bonus from race and culture and i don't want them to have any more importance. I feel it's necessary for making all the builds viable and the story immersive. Players can then create all kind of character without being worry about their effectiveness. 

 

Cultures (i don't care much about races except for Godlike, interesting concept) should have more impact in the dialogues and the story than the attributes.