More like BG2 please

[Waywocket]

 

 

 

It's not fun to throw some magic tin suit and a magic pig sticker +3 on my PC Paladin and cut him loose auto-attacking linebacker style while the wizards go to work with all their spells.

That's your opinion, and if that's what you think I suggest you play with a different class that better suits your preferred play-style. That's a part of why the IE games were so great; they allowed a variety of different play styles.

 

If you don't like the PoE style of classes and encounters then I suggest you play a different game that better suits your preferred play-style.

 

For God's sake, why do people have to take it down to this level of trolling? For shame.

[Mayama]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont really think that spamming fireballs/clouds of whatever off screen was interesting or challenging.

 

That wasn't what the mage battles were like.

 

 

Of course they were like that, you closed the distance to the enemy wizard. When he started to cast his defensive spells you ran away, waited the spells out till he was defenseless and spammed him to death. 

 

Your two statements don't go together, rationally. Either you stood off screen and spammed stuff and exploited that system weakness or you closed the gap - not both.

And there are heaps of ways to dispose of a defensive wizard like that. Heck, you could even raise your own barriers, and let him do his thing, while you took care of other enemies.

 

 

Nope it is exactly how it worked because those big boss mages we are talking about did not chase you at all.

[Mrakvampire]

Point is that this game is not heavily inspired by this game (and here is the parte that really really piss the ****ing hell out of me and i've just discovered it) because the guy in charge of the game mechanincs ****ing despises the game that they had put in the god damnit front page of their kickstarter page

 

Oh, you are absolutely not alone here. If I've seen this statement from this person (Josh Sawyer) that he basically dislikes most successfull and praised IE game (Baldur's Gate 2) - then there would be absolutely NO MONEY, $0 from me, and all my friends that were actually shocked, when I've shown them this comment. 

I hate being manipulated and I feel right now that Obsidian just used my nostalgia feelings and tricked me. 

[Mayama]

 

Point is that this game is not heavily inspired by this game (and here is the parte that really really piss the ****ing hell out of me and i've just discovered it) because the guy in charge of the game mechanincs ****ing despises the game that they had put in the god damnit front page of their kickstarter page

 

Oh, you are absolutely not alone here. If I've seen this statement from this person (Josh Sawyer) that he basically dislikes most successfull and praised IE game (Baldur's Gate 2) - then there would be absolutely NO MONEY, $0 from me, and all my friends that were actually shocked, when I've shown them this comment. 

I hate being manipulated and I feel right now that Obsidian just used my nostalgia feelings and tricked me. 

 

 

Their is a difference between liking (loving) something and blindly thinking its the holy grail. I really love the baldurs gate games but I could make a very long list about things that I think are not very well made or just plain bad. Romances for example are one of those points.

[Namutree]

Kharador: I can see what you mean. It should be a CRPG worthy of 2014, with some new and exciting stuff, on top of good things that really worked. It should rest on the shoulders of titans, if you will. Also, it should definitely not be a BG3, and as much as I love D&D, it should definitely not be a new D&D CRPG. I'm actually very happy about all the good and promising things we're seeing already in PoE. However, combat, xp and pathfinding aren't up to snuff yet. Far from it. Personally, I reckon they should lend heavily from the CRPG giants of yore - and just steal everything that worked great. Every poet is a thief, so why not game devs as well, devs that actually worked on those brilliant games?

The problem with that is that if they did lend from CRPG game of the past Obsidian would living up to it's word, and according to some on this thread that would be TERRIBLE because the IE games apparently had terrible mechanics.

[Mrakvampire]

 

 

Point is that this game is not heavily inspired by this game (and here is the parte that really really piss the ****ing hell out of me and i've just discovered it) because the guy in charge of the game mechanincs ****ing despises the game that they had put in the god damnit front page of their kickstarter page

 

Oh, you are absolutely not alone here. If I've seen this statement from this person (Josh Sawyer) that he basically dislikes most successfull and praised IE game (Baldur's Gate 2) - then there would be absolutely NO MONEY, $0 from me, and all my friends that were actually shocked, when I've shown them this comment. 

I hate being manipulated and I feel right now that Obsidian just used my nostalgia feelings and tricked me. 

 

 

Their is a difference between liking (loving) something and blindly thinking its the holy grail. I really love the baldurs gate games but I could make a very long list about things that I think are not very well made or just plain bad. Romances for example are one of those points.

 

 

No, no, no. He basically said, quote:

 

I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it.

 

[archangel979]

 

 

 

I love the mage battles in BG2 and waited 15 year to play similar game. (including the combat system).

Now it looks that the combat is different.

 

At this point i just hope that the PoE combat can be modded. 

 

I dont really think that spamming fireballs/clouds of whatever off screen was interesting or challenging.

 

That wasn't what the mage battles were like.

 

 

Of course they were like that, you closed the distance to the enemy wizard. When he started to cast his defensive spells you ran away, waited the spells out till he was defenseless and spammed him to death. 

 

That was one of the options.

You could also attack him until he died.

You could destroy his buffs with your spells or magic items and kill him faster.

You could use stealth to make him not being able to target you. It worked great when combining stealth with boots of speed or haste spell as you could run fast behind the corner so you could stealth again. 

You could scout the enemy with your rogue or invisible caster and cast AoE spells off screen. 

You could buff yourself like crazy and run in solo so to let him use up his spells on your protective barriers while dispelling his and then have your fighter bash him to death. 

You could use your high level dwarf fighter that was basically immune to all spells (due to having saves that went in minus values which means he could only fail the save on roll of 1 on 1 to 20 roll), give him cloak of reflection and send him to murder Casters, Beholders and other spell slingers. 

You could do mass summon from spells or scrolls and confuse enemy AI with that. Or summon your Planetar in Throne of Bhaal to take care of some enemies. 

You could summon undead that were immune to many things challenges ahead used against your party let them tank.

There were other tactics. The point is, combat was fun and you had many options. 

 

BG1 Sarevok fight, you use Protection from Magic scroll on yourself and just run around the traps having all of them fire off and kill Sarevok and his minions. How many cRPG even offered this kind of option for the boss fight (and I am sure it was not predicted by developers)? BG games had some much content and options that you could find so many combinations that you just cannot in modern games. Part of those options were result of AD&D that people are bashing here now. 

 

So far I doubt the Sawyer system will be equal although I am sure it will be fun as well.

[bonarbill]

The less this game is like BG2, the better.  The game certainly doesn't need dumb dispell the mage battles, shіtty save imoen plots, or the huge amount of dumb peasants barging you with quests in athkatla.  The more this game is like Planescape Torment (sans the battle system), the better.

[Namutree]

About Sawyer not liking aspects of BG2. First of he didn't say disliked the game overall; lets not conflate what he said. Heck, there are things I don't like about BG2, and I love that game.

 

Even if he did; BG2 is 1/5 of the IE games, and I know he liked them as a whole; so it doesn't really matter. I never asked Sawyer to like making an IE style game. Obsidian said they would, and now I'm trying to hold them to that promise. I couldn't care less what the developers think of the IE games.

 

All that matters here is their honesty. If they are honorable people; they will tweak the game to make exploration feel like it did in BG, and make combat feel like it did in Ice wind dale. That is what was promised.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Namutree

[Namutree]

The less this game is like BG2, the better.  The game certainly doesn't need dumb dispell the mage battles, shіtty save imoen plots, or the huge amount of dumb peasants barging you with quests in athkatla.  The more this game is like Planescape Torment (sans the battle system), the better.

They already said that the exploration was to be like BG, and the combat/dungeon crawling was supposed to be like Ice wind dale. As for the story; it was pitched to be like Planescape Torment. So in terms of story you should be set.

[Mrakvampire]

About Sawyer not liking aspects of BG2. First of he didn't say disliked the game overall; lets not conflate what he said. Heck, there are things I don't like about BG2, and I love that game.

 

Even if he did; BG2 is 1/5 of the IE games, and I know he liked them as a whole; so it doesn't really matter. I never asked Sawyer to like making an IE style game. Obsidian said they would, and now I'm trying to hold them to that promise. I couldn't care less what the developers think of the IE games.

 

All that matters here is their honesty. If they are honorable people; they will tweak the game to make exploration feel like it did in BG, and make combat feel like it did in Ice wind dale. That is what was promised.

 

Yeah, you are right. Just my emotions...

[Giubba]

About Sawyer not liking aspects of BG2. First of he didn't say disliked the game overall; lets not conflate what he said. Heck, there are things I don't like about BG2, and I love that game.

 

Even if he did; BG2 is 1/5 of the IE games, and I know he liked them as a whole; so it doesn't really matter. I never asked Sawyer to like making an IE style game. Obsidian said they would, and now I'm trying to hold them to that promise. I couldn't care less what the developers think of the IE games.

 

All that matters here is their honesty. If they are honorable people; they will tweak the game to make exploration feel like it did in BG, and make combat feel like it did in Ice wind dale. That is what was promised.

 

BG share the same combat of IWD so if he despise (and he plainly admit it that he would save basicaly nothing from BG2) he despise both BG and IWD.

 

And for being completly honest at the moment i do not give a flaming **** about what Sawyer prefer. They had my money because they put baldur's gate,icewind dale and torment in their objective as goal to reach. And what i discover? that the guy who created the game dosen't give a **** about two of the said title. OH ****ING JOY

Edited August 21, 2014 by Giubba

[Namutree]

 

About Sawyer not liking aspects of BG2. First of he didn't say disliked the game overall; lets not conflate what he said. Heck, there are things I don't like about BG2, and I love that game.

 

Even if he did; BG2 is 1/5 of the IE games, and I know he liked them as a whole; so it doesn't really matter. I never asked Sawyer to like making an IE style game. Obsidian said they would, and now I'm trying to hold them to that promise. I couldn't care less what the developers think of the IE games.

 

All that matters here is their honesty. If they are honorable people; they will tweak the game to make exploration feel like it did in BG, and make combat feel like it did in Ice wind dale. That is what was promised.

 

BG share the same combat of IWD so if he despise (and he plainly admit it that he would save basicaly nothing from BG2) he despise both BG and IWD.

 

They have similarities in pace, but technically the combat was different. For one; you couldn't stack as many buffs on a character in IWD2 as you could in BG2. There are subtle differences in the stats and level up system too; both of which affect combat.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Namutree

[Giubba]

 

 

About Sawyer not liking aspects of BG2. First of he didn't say disliked the game overall; lets not conflate what he said. Heck, there are things I don't like about BG2, and I love that game.

 

Even if he did; BG2 is 1/5 of the IE games, and I know he liked them as a whole; so it doesn't really matter. I never asked Sawyer to like making an IE style game. Obsidian said they would, and now I'm trying to hold them to that promise. I couldn't care less what the developers think of the IE games.

 

All that matters here is their honesty. If they are honorable people; they will tweak the game to make exploration feel like it did in BG, and make combat feel like it did in Ice wind dale. That is what was promised.

 

BG share the same combat of IWD so if he despise (and he plainly admit it that he would save basicaly nothing from BG2) he despise both BG and IWD.

 

They have similarities in pace, but technically the combat was different. For one; you couldn't stack as many buffs on a character in IWD2 as you could in BG2. There are subtle differences in the stats and level up system too; both of which affect combat.

 

 

Ok i'm trying to control my temper.

 

In fact i wrote IWD (implyng icewind dale 1) because IWD 2 was based on D&D 3 or 3.5 i don't remember the exact relase.

[Bill Gates' Son]

 

About Sawyer not liking aspects of BG2. First of he didn't say disliked the game overall; lets not conflate what he said. Heck, there are things I don't like about BG2, and I love that game.

 

Even if he did; BG2 is 1/5 of the IE games, and I know he liked them as a whole; so it doesn't really matter. I never asked Sawyer to like making an IE style game. Obsidian said they would, and now I'm trying to hold them to that promise. I couldn't care less what the developers think of the IE games.

 

All that matters here is their honesty. If they are honorable people; they will tweak the game to make exploration feel like it did in BG, and make combat feel like it did in Ice wind dale. That is what was promised.

 

BG share the same combat of IWD so if he despise (and he plainly admit it that he would save basicaly nothing from BG2) he despise both BG and IWD.

 

And for being completly honest at the moment i do not give a flaming **** about what Sawyer prefer. They had my money because they put baldur's gate,icewind dale and torment in their objective as goal to reach. And what i discover? that the guy who created the game dosen't give a **** about two of the said title. OH ****ING JOY

 

 

Actually, he does like the infinity engine combat.  Here are some quotes from his blog.

 

 

* Tactical combat. I disliked some of the specific rules or rule implementations, but I always enjoyed the tactical combat in the BG and IWD games. I loved designing it and I loved playing it. In particular, "symmetrical" battles with parties or other class/level characters were a lot of fun. I like the more scripted feeling of those fights even if I didn't like the rock/paper/scissors nature of some of the hard counters. I enjoy turn-based combat a lot, but I had already been introduced to RTwP 6 years before BG, so I also enjoyed/had no problem with BG's fundamental style of RPG combat. 

 

* The tactical combat in BG2, IWD, and IWD2. My main complaint with BG2 combat is the hard-counter wizard fights. I don't think hard-counters belong in a game where you can easily, unintentionally, build a party that lacks the hard-counter. I also don't think save or die effects belong in a game with save/reload, but that's a larger issue with 2nd and some elements of 3rd Edition A/D&D. Notably, it's mostly absent from 4E and I think that aspect of the game is better for it. 

Edited August 21, 2014 by Bill Gates' Son

[Kiel29]

 

About Sawyer not liking aspects of BG2. First of he didn't say disliked the game overall; lets not conflate what he said. Heck, there are things I don't like about BG2, and I love that game.

 

Even if he did; BG2 is 1/5 of the IE games, and I know he liked them as a whole; so it doesn't really matter. I never asked Sawyer to like making an IE style game. Obsidian said they would, and now I'm trying to hold them to that promise. I couldn't care less what the developers think of the IE games.

 

All that matters here is their honesty. If they are honorable people; they will tweak the game to make exploration feel like it did in BG, and make combat feel like it did in Ice wind dale. That is what was promised.

 

BG share the same combat of IWD so if he despise (and he plainly admit it that he would save basicaly nothing from BG2) he despise both BG and IWD.

 

And for being completly honest at the moment i do not give a flaming **** about what Sawyer prefer. They had my money because they put baldur's gate,icewind dale and torment in their objective as goal to reach. And what i discover? that the guy who created the game dosen't give a **** about two of the said title. OH ****ING JOY

 

 

 

But they didn't quote the games as their goal. They wanted the feel of them, in a modern age. And those are very different. If they wanted to make those games, they could have been the ones that made the Enhanced Editions, but they weren't. They made a Kickstarter for a new game, that is LIKE those old games, specifically in the ways mentioned.

 

Playing hours and hours in the beta, the new sense of exploration is like BG, it is not the same. But it feels like it, and looking around in nooks and crannies, wondering what is over here, over there, is fun(subjectively). Sometimes you get stuff, sometimes you don't. That is what the exploration felt like(to me).

Edited August 21, 2014 by Kiel29

[Namutree]

 

 

Ok i'm trying to control my temper.

 

In fact i wrote IWD (implyng icewind dale 1) because IWD 2 was based on D&D 3 or 3.5 i don't remember the exact relase.

 

I see. Well their are differences between BG2 and IWD1 as well.

[Giubba]

No the simply and plained said that they wanted make a game wi

 

 

 

 

Ok i'm trying to control my temper.

 

In fact i wrote IWD (implyng icewind dale 1) because IWD 2 was based on D&D 3 or 3.5 i don't remember the exact relase.

 

I see. Well their are differences between BG2 and IWD1 as well.

 

 

Minimal, you didn't need to relearn the combat from scratch switching between baldurs gate and icewind dale.

 

And sorry i'm literaly too angry with this bastards for having a civil discussion.

[Mrakvampire]

 

 

 

Ok i'm trying to control my temper.

 

In fact i wrote IWD (implyng icewind dale 1) because IWD 2 was based on D&D 3 or 3.5 i don't remember the exact relase.

 

I see. Well their are differences between BG2 and IWD1 as well.

 

 

To be honest - differences were minor.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

The less this game is like BG2, the better.  The game certainly doesn't need dumb dispell the mage battles, shіtty save imoen plots, or the huge amount of dumb peasants barging you with quests in athkatla.  The more this game is like Planescape Torment (sans the battle system), the better.

They already said that the exploration was to be like BG, and the combat/dungeon crawling was supposed to be like Ice wind dale. As for the story; it was pitched to be like Planescape Torment. So in terms of story you should be set.

 

Heh! Yeah, they promised us the best of both worlds! No pressure, OE!

So far, it's looking bright for the story part. We are all holding our breaths regarding combat systems, rewarding gameplay (including the xp issues), as well as meaningful exploration: right now the maps are too crowded, mixing that with the non-finished fog of war, and you could easily be swarmed by beetles).

[C2B]

Wait what?

 

Josh Sawyer doesn't give a **** about IWD?

 

BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

This thread entertains.

[Namutree]

 

 

But they didn't quote the games as their goal. They wanted the feel of them, in a modern age. And those are very different. If they wanted to make those games, they could have been the ones that made the Enhanced Editions, but they weren't. They made a Kickstarter for a new game, that is LIKE those old games, specifically in the ways mentioned.

 

Playing hours and hours in the beta, the new sense of exploration is like BG, it is not the same. But looking around in nooks and crannies, wondering what is over here, over there, is fun(subjectively). Sometimes you get stuff, sometimes you don't. That is what the exploration felt like(to me).

 

Without any xp for exploration as the system is now it is not even like BG. I explored a lot in BG in order level up specifically; because I didn't find most of the quests interesting. A big part of the feel of exploring in BG is the sense progress you make while exploring. Now exploring isn't all that exciting knowing I get any xp for it; not to mention the now enhanced trash mobs will make it much deadlier.

 

By adding objective xp they could fix this "if I'm not on a quest I make no progress while exploring" issue, but if they don't; poe is going to be a major disappointment.

[Ineth]

BG2 had the best mage battles in any RPG ever.

 

Only with the "Smarter mages" component from the Sword Coast Stratagems mod. Vanilla BG2 mages can be cheese'd too easily (and too repetitively).

 

The aforementioned mod makes enemy mages cast (or activate brebuffs/contingencies/spelltriggers with) magic protections like Magic Immunity: Abjuration or Improved Invisibility, and also makes them move around more, in order to counteract the standard Dispel Magic / Breach tactic.

Among other things, this increases the variety of mage battles since different enemy casters will (randomly) use different anti-magic and anti-weapon buffs, so you have to deal with them differently.

 

Of course, it comes at the cost of making enemy mages effectively "steal the show", by being much more significant foes than enemy warriors (who, unlike the player's warriors, tend to be very under-equipped in terms of weapons, armor, and magic items with passive bonuses, and don't seem to use any active item-based abilities).

[Kiel29]

 

 

 

But they didn't quote the games as their goal. They wanted the feel of them, in a modern age. And those are very different. If they wanted to make those games, they could have been the ones that made the Enhanced Editions, but they weren't. They made a Kickstarter for a new game, that is LIKE those old games, specifically in the ways mentioned.

 

Playing hours and hours in the beta, the new sense of exploration is like BG, it is not the same. But looking around in nooks and crannies, wondering what is over here, over there, is fun(subjectively). Sometimes you get stuff, sometimes you don't. That is what the exploration felt like(to me).

 

Without any xp for exploration as the system is now it is not even like BG. I explored a lot in BG in order level up specifically; because I didn't find most of the quests interesting. A big part of the feel of exploring in BG is the sense progress you make while exploring. Now exploring isn't all that exciting knowing I get any xp for it; not to mention the now enhanced trash mobs will make it much deadlier.

 

By adding objective xp they could fix this "if I'm not on a quest I make no progress while exploring" issue, but if they don't; poe is going to be a major disappointment.

 

 

 

Coming from that perspective, that makes sense then. I always explored for its own sake, I like just finding whatever stuff was just out there. An argument could be made for finding loot and being more powerful, even just in the limited scope of the beta, but if XP is what you are looking for, I can see how you would be disappointed.

 

I guess this whole argument comes down to what parts of the old games you felt were most intrinsic.

[Ineth]

2. Intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale

 

Combat right now has nothing in common with Icewind Dale combat, that was 99% similar to BG2 combat.

 

Actually, Namutree's complaint of trash mobs being a significant challenge and not orders of magnitude easier than boss fights, would fit IWD2 as well.

 

On my first playthrough of IWD2, the little groups of nameless Malarites on the Shaengarne Dam gave me big trouble and forced me to reload several times (just to name one example), whereas some of the named "bosses" in the game could be disabled in round 1 with Feeblemind or similar.

It's true that this is different from the BG/BG2 outdoor area exploration experience, but those do not define the Infinity Engine "spirit" alone.