Experience point system in the beta and onwards

[Shdy314]

Are the pot shots at me necessary? I've been even handed and civil. Also haven't made any direct attacks at anybody from out of the blue.

 

Um the pot shot was at CatatonicMan. I agree it is annoying when people play grammar nazi. I was serious that you should have given him a taste of his own medicine.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[Zansatsu]

 

Are the pot shots at me necessary? I've been even handed and civil. Also haven't made any direct attacks at anybody from out of the blue.

 

Um the pot shot was at CatatonicMan. I agree it is annoying when people play grammar nazi. I was serious that you should have given him a taste of his own medicine.

Sorry mate. Hard to gauge tone sometimes on the forums. Plus it's 455am where I'm at and I've been up all night. My reading comprehension is shot ATM.

[Sarex]

Do you not understand what a vocal minority is? It probably looks something like the 130 or so people that decided to participate in the poll.

 

The problem is that those 138 are probably quarter of the people who are going to visit the forum and add any input in to how the game should proceed. So for us it's not a minority.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Sarex

[GrinningReaper659]

 

Do you not understand what a vocal minority is? It probably looks something like the 130 or so people that decided to participate in the poll.

 

The problem is that those 138 are probably quarter of the people who are going to visit the forum and add any input in to how the game should proceed. So for us it's not a minority.

 

 

This will be my last attempt to explain this, people can feel free to look up vocal minority if there's any remaining confusion.

 

Even if you're exactly right and it's 1/4 of all the people that will visit the forum and give input, then it is still by definition a vocal minority. "So for us it's not a minority." Huh? 1/4 = minority because 25% < 50%. Not to mention the participant bias that drives those who are dissatisfied with the current system to comment/vote more than those who are satisfied. But that last point is superfluous, the support for one side of the argument on this poll represents a vocal minority, I'm shocked people are still arguing this point with me, please go look up the term.

 

Let's take a look at the group that voted in this poll, are they:

Minority of backers - absolutely

Minority of backers with beta access - still yes

Minority of people on the forum - check

Minority of backers with beta access that are giving feedback on the forum - by your estimation yes and I tend to agree

 

Clearly a minority, vocal because they're speaking out about an issue they're dissatisfied with. Vocal minority. This horse is dead, please can we move on from it.

[Shdy314]

 This horse is dead, please can we move on from it.

 

They'll never move on Reaper. They are literally addicted to it. At least Indira was decent enough to admit it.

 

 

Yes! I admit. I am addicted to xp. I am addicted to killing sprees, and I reserve the right, from my years of experience of RPGs, PnP and CRPGs, to call this deep roleplaying.

 

In case someone thought I was speaking in jest.

 

I admire Indira's blunt honesty. The behaviour of kill-xp proponents makes so much more sense when you realize you aren't having a serious discussion. You are talking to someone that wants their fix.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[Sarex]

This will be my last attempt to explain this, people can feel free to look up vocal minority if there's any remaining confusion.

 

Even if you're exactly right and it's 1/4 of all the people that will visit the forum and give input, then it is still by definition a vocal minority. "So for us it's not a minority." Huh? 1/4 = minority because 25% < 50%. Not to mention the participant bias that drives those who are dissatisfied with the current system to comment/vote more than those who are satisfied. But that last point is superfluous, the support for one side of the argument on this poll represents a vocal minority, I'm shocked people are still arguing this point with me, please go look up the term.

 

Let's take a look at the group that voted in this poll, are they:

Minority of backers - absolutely

Minority of backers with beta access - still yes

Minority of people on the forum - check

Minority of backers with beta access that are giving feedback on the forum - by your estimation yes and I tend to agree

 

Clearly a minority, vocal because they're speaking out about an issue they're dissatisfied with. Vocal minority. This horse is dead, please can we move on from it.

 

But that is always the case with the polls, even if Obsidian did the poll and posted it on the front page of their site and sent an email to all it's forum goers and ks backers, you would still get less then 50% of them (much less). For Pete's sake even when choosing the president for a country the turnout is almost always less then 50% of possible voters. Still the polls are used and have value. Your definition of minorities doesn't change that.

 

 

In case someone thought I was speaking in jest.

 

I admire Indira's blunt honesty. Their behaviour of kill-xp proponents makes so much more sense when you realize you aren't having a serious discussion. You are talking to someone that wants their fix.

 

Edited August 21, 2014 by Sarex

[Shdy314]

 

 

 

Dopamine isn't just released when you play MMO's Sarex. Denial is a common phenomenon of addiction. We can help you.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Yes! I admit. I am addicted to xp. I am addicted to killing sprees, and I reserve the right, from my years of experience of RPGs, PnP and CRPGs, to call this deep roleplaying.

 

In case someone thought I was speaking in jest.

 

I admire Indira's blunt honesty. The behaviour of kill-xp proponents makes so much more sense when you realize you aren't having a serious discussion. You are talking to someone that wants their fix.

 

 

Dude, part of the appeal of RPGs is the sense of constant progression. When you only give out XP for very specific things, in very large chunks, you are effectively breaking a core pillar of the gameplay experience.

 

Does this mean kill xp is the only way to make the game enjoyable? Hell no.

 

Does this mean more granular xp rewards from varied, not necessarily quest-related activities would improve the game? Hell yes.

 

 

 

Also, please refrain from creating an unnecessarily hostile forum atmosphere. Having to wade through pages of screaming matches is draining, and eventually the only people who'll bother participating in the discussion will be the ones who have nothing to add but even more noise.

Edited August 21, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[GrinningReaper659]

Sarex, please don't take my words out of context, you originally quoted my response to someone, I did not make the statement in a vacuum and I never suggested that this poll was more or less representative than other polls, I was making a statement of the representative nature of any such poll with a similar number of participants.

 

Apart from the fact that none of what you just said negates the correctness of my argument, my sentence that you quoted was a response to Helm's giant-font bold response attempting to negate someone's assertion that Helm's position was one of a vocal minority. Helm's response was incorrect, as I pointed out. Your defense of his response is equally incorrect. You can keep repeating justifications all you want, and I'll just keep repeating the facts which negate your argument and support mine. You said that one quarter is not a minority, I disagree, I'll leave it to third party observers to determine which of us is correct.

 

 

Meh, I'm getting too worked up about this and things are getting a bit heated (sorry for my contribution to this); I need some sleep. Enjoy your poll, and feel free to believe that it's representative of PoE backers at large if you so desire (for all we know, it may be).

[Shdy314]

 

Dude, part of the appeal of RPGs is the sense of constant progression. When you only give out XP for very specific things, in very large chunks, you are effectively breaking a core pillar of the gameplay experience.

 

Does this mean kill xp is the only way to make the game enjoyable? Hell no.

 

Does this mean more granular xp rewards from varied, not necessarily quest-related activities would improve the game? Hell yes.

 

Also, please refrain from creating an unnecessarily hostile forum atmosphere. Having to wade through pages of screaming matches is draining, and eventually the only people who'll bother participating in the discussion will be the ones who have nothing to add but even more noise.

 

This isn't a discussion. This is an exercise in utter futility. We long ago reached the point of only noise being added. The exact same points have been brought up over and over for YEARS now.

Sure some people (including myself) have advocated for adding xp for exploration and maybe spreading out the points in quests you get xp. But it is hard to hear over the constant shrillness of the kill-xp camp who freely admit they don't expect Sawyer to listen to them and add it.

 

As for hostile forum atmosphere you can let the mods decide who is doing that.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

This isn't a discussion. This is an exercise in utter futility. We long ago reached the point of only noise being added. 

 

 

If you feel nothing constructive is being added to the discussion, you're free not to participate. Jumping in just to insult others is generally considered bad form.

 

 

As for hostile forum atmosphere you can let the mods decide who is doing that.

 

 

Look, I don't think anyone needs mod input to tell that condescending bull like this:

 

 

Dopamine isn't just released when you play MMO's Sarex. Denial is a common phenomenon of addiction. We can help you.

 

 

is not helping to facilitate reasonable discussion and mutual understanding of each others' stance.

 

 

But we're getting OT here.

[Shdy314]

 

If you feel nothing constructive is being added to the discussion, you're free not to participate. Jumping in just to insult others is generally considered bad form.

Look, I don't think anyone needs mod input to tell that condescending bull like this:

is not helping to facilitate reasonable discussion and mutual understanding of each others' stance.

But we're getting OT here.

 

There is nothing to participate in. You are laboring under a false impression. I explained this.

 

Stop playing mod. That is the only thing worse than playing grammar nazi.

 

There is NO reasonable discussion to facilitate here. I explained this. We understand each others points. We have reached the point everyone is firmly entrenched in their viewpoints.

The ghost of Gygax could appear to argue against (or for) kill-xp and it would not change anyone's mind. Kill-xp fans have said multiple times they do not think Obsidian will change it. They know they are wasting everyone's time. They do not care. Because this is not about having a real discussion on design. 

 

I am completely serious and so was Indira. The dopamine fix in games is very real. Combine that with nostalgia and you have a recipe for some hardcore emotional attachment.

 

Go ahead and get OT. This thread is going nowhere. It is a giant cycle of sadness and future regret on our deathbed for the time that was wasted

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[aluminiumtrioxid]

There is nothing to participate in. You are laboring under a false impression. I explained this.

 

 

There is NO reasonable discussion to facilitate here. I explained this. We understand each others points. 

 

 

Except - and I know this is totally selfish - I'm trying to have a conversation with Helm and understand his stance on why he feels the riskiness of combat should yield an appropriately greater reward, and having to skim through three pages of toxic bile between posts is something I could do without, thank you very much.

 

Stop playing mod. That is the only thing worse than playing grammar nazi.

 

I could argue that "telling off others for asking nicely to refrain from behaving like an asshat" is also a strong contender, but I'm trying to avoid sounding snarky. (And desperately failing at it. Still, I've tried.)

 

We have reached the point everyone is firmly entrenched in their viewpoints.

 

Based on my experience with internet discussions, that's usually not "a point to be reached", but the starting assumption. That doesn't change the fact that people try to discuss said viewpoints.

 

Also, Indira was firmly anti-kill xp until he fired up the beta, so the "everyone is entrenched in their viewpoints" stance doesn't exactly hold water.

 

 

I am completely serious

 

So I've noticed...

 

and so was Indira. 

 

...but I have doubts about that.

[Shdy314]

 

Except - and I know this is totally selfish - I'm trying to have a conversation with Helm and understand his stance on why he feels the riskiness of combat should yield an appropriately greater reward, and having to skim through three pages of toxic bile between posts is something I could do without, thank you very much.

 

This is what PMs are for. Ive used them to great effect for speaking to a single individual.

 

I could argue that "telling off others for asking nicely to refrain from behaving like an asshat" is also a strong contender, but I'm trying to avoid sounding snarky. (And desperately failing at it. Still, I've tried.)

 

You could argue that but youd be wrong. Also such vulgar language is against forum rules. You have been reported.

 

Based on my experience with internet discussions, that's usually not "a point to be reached", but the starting assumption. That doesn't change the fact that people try to discuss said viewpoints.

 

Find better discussions.

 

Also, Indira was firmly anti-kill xp until he fired up the beta, so the "everyone is entrenched in their viewpoints" stance doesn't exactly hold water.

 

By Indira's own admission he was NOT. He claimed to be on the fence.

 

and so was Indira. 

 

...but I have doubts about that.

 

If that is so then go read the thread he posted it in. I didn't quote out of context. This is simply an emotional tradition based argument repeated ad infinitum for years here. Indira simply admitted he is married to particular conventions in his RPGs. It is what he knows/likes/prefers and is comfortably familiar with. I can respect that while still disagreeing.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Except - and I know this is totally selfish - I'm trying to have a conversation with Helm and understand his stance on why he feels the riskiness of combat should yield an appropriately greater reward, and having to skim through three pages of toxic bile between posts is something I could do without, thank you very much.

 

This is what PMs are for. Ive used them to great effect for speaking to a single individual.

 

 

 

...So you're telling me to use the PM function to discuss a question pertaining to preferences of xp system instead of doing so in the topic that was opened to discuss questions regarding the xp system. Presumably because civilized discussions might interfere with the ongoing drama, and that would be a terrible loss. 

 

I mean... dude. 

[Immortalis]

 

 

 

now if they do decide to change it for some silly reason like a vocal minority complaining about it

Dude, do you not understand the poll?

 

90% of the voters want a different XP system than the one that is currently implemented in the game, which is quest only XP (the first option).

 

Do you not understand what a vocal minority is? It probably looks something like the 130 or so people that decided to participate in the poll.

 

Do you understand what extrapolation is?

 

130 people isn't a lot but it is enough to see that a extremely large majority don't like the current XP system (which is understandable, because it sucks)

 

 

 

I want to point out that the poll is not inclusive of every backer.. However I did notice a lot of people who don't generally post on this forum appearing out of the blue to comment after the beta.. I think people don't actually know about the choices developers are making for fear of spoilers.. I would be in that same group if I hadn't seen the Tim Cain interview.

 

I notice the larger majority of this forum.. were in favor of.. whatever the developers want.

 

Now after the beta.. the poll seems somewhat biased towards kill xp especially if you just count people who are new to the discussion and weren't chest beating for the last 2 threads..

 

I have no empirical data obviously but this seems to be what is going on.. the kill-xp group was originally greatly outnumbered in opinions in this forum but our position is strongly represented in the polls and every day that number is climbing.. and yet we 6 have already voted.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Immortalis

[Msxyz]

I want to point out that the poll is not inclusive of every backer.. However I did notice a lot of people who don't generally post on this forum appearing out of the blue to comment after the beta.. I think people don't actually know about the choices developers are making for fear of spoilers.. I would be in that same group if I hadn't seen the Tim Cain interview.

I started posting here again after having played the beta. Usually, I don't post on game specific forums or communities but since I invested in this Kickstarter and I'm part of the beta group, it's appropriate to contribute with feedback.

 

As for the relevance of this poll, we have around 200 responses and quite a few backers particpating in the discussion. People willing to spend some time on these very forums care about the game more than most out there and are also probably Kickstarter backers, even if they didn't pledge 110$ or more to access the beta as some of us did. Everything considered, I think 200 posters out of 73000 (?) backers is a sizeable slice with enough statistical relevance to draw some conclusions.

 

unfortunately, from what I've heard in these past few days, certain decisions were set in stone for a long time and no amount of discussion could move Obsidian or its lead designer from their vision. I DO hope, however, that Obsidian will finally consider the feedback of us betatesters because we speak after having seen and experienced their intended design firsthand.

 

I gladfully pledged enough money to enter in the beta test not because I had hoped to play the whole game a few months before the others but to give my contribution in improving the game I was helping financing. The poll results and other threads in the beta forums speaks for themselves... this game mechanics and feel need to undergo some significant tweaking before being published. As it is now, bugs aside (which are totally excusable and understandeable), it leaves a sizeable part of the community dissatisfied.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Msxyz

[Stun]

 

Except - and I know this is totally selfish - I'm trying to have a conversation with Helm and understand his stance on why he feels the riskiness of combat should yield an appropriately greater reward, and having to skim through three pages of toxic bile between posts is something I could do without, thank you very much.

 

This is what PMs are for. Ive used them to great effect for speaking to a single individual.

 

 

 

...So you're telling me to use the PM function to discuss a question pertaining to preferences of xp system instead of doing so in the topic that was opened to discuss questions regarding the xp system. Presumably because civilized discussions might interfere with the ongoing drama, and that would be a terrible loss. 

 

I mean... dude. 

 

Don't sell that gem short! He also accuses you of trying to play moderator... and then he turns right around and asks us all to "take it to PMs", which is probably the single most used Moderator response to heated personal arguments that pop up on message boards.

 

God I love this place.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Stun

[Bloody Hypocrite]

I'll post here the same thing that I did in the beta section. Please forgive my copy-paste laziness but it's been a long night.
It's hard to gauge the current system because in every play-through I've done, I've never leveled up. I've only even received any XP two/three times in three different play-throughs. I'm not against the concept of objective-based XP,  but it would have to be greatly expanded from the current quest-based system. I do think that the XP should be broken up so that you feel like you are actually accomplishing something.
When they first brought up the XP system, I definitely imagined something far more complex than what we are seeing thus far. For example, whether you kill/sneak/talk past any significant encounter (including tough groups of enemies in the wilderness)  you would get some amount of XP. I don't mind not getting XP for individual mobs killed, but by overcoming, by any method, an obvious choke-point  such as the beetles I feel that it should merit XP. Finding locations through exploration should reward XP. Dealing with mini-bosses should grant XP.
Honestly, I feel that a true objective-based XP system is far harder to properly implement in a crpg than the old IE XP systems. Even if it were actually working, I don't think I would like the lump-sum quest system that's currently in place.

[Shdy314]

 

...So you're telling me to use the PM function to discuss a question pertaining to preferences of xp system instead of doing so in the topic that was opened to discuss questions regarding the xp system. Presumably because civilized discussions might interfere with the ongoing drama, and that would be a terrible loss. 

 

I mean... dude. 

 

Don't sell that gem short! He also accuses you of trying to play moderator... and then he turns right around and asks us all to "take it to PMs", which is probably the single most used Moderator response to heated personal arguments that pop up on message boards.

 

God I love this place.

 

Stun you understood my comment about tried and tested failure which was great but I can't tell if you understood this post or not. I think you did but it is hard to tell from what you wrote so I want to check. Did you also notice I claimed to have reported him? Do you think I really did?

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[Helm]

 

 

 

Yes! I admit. I am addicted to xp. I am addicted to killing sprees, and I reserve the right, from my years of experience of RPGs, PnP and CRPGs, to call this deep roleplaying.

 

In case someone thought I was speaking in jest.

 

I admire Indira's blunt honesty. The behaviour of kill-xp proponents makes so much more sense when you realize you aren't having a serious discussion. You are talking to someone that wants their fix.

 

 

Dude, part of the appeal of RPGs is the sense of constant progression. When you only give out XP for very specific things, in very large chunks, you are effectively breaking a core pillar of the gameplay experience.

 

Does this mean kill xp is the only way to make the game enjoyable? Hell no.

 

Does this mean more granular xp rewards from varied, not necessarily quest-related activities would improve the game? Hell yes.

 

 

 

Also, please refrain from creating an unnecessarily hostile forum atmosphere. Having to wade through pages of screaming matches is draining, and eventually the only people who'll bother participating in the discussion will be the ones who have nothing to add but even more noise.

 

Are you turning too? 

[Nomadmerc]

"I think that there is a strong case to be made for more objective-based XP (such as XP for clearing a wilderness area of dangerous beasts, XP for the handling of the scripted events, XP for exploring a ruin, etc.), but I don't see any merit in the arguments put forth here for per-kill XP." (Grimreaper659)

 

 

I agree with the first portion of what you said--there is a strong case for a more advanced experience system; the second part I still believe there are merits to a per-kill xp system.

 

    Now if the more objective-based xp system gave you rewards for a certain amount but perhaps not the full amount of a certain trash mob type in a area it would make sense if the completion reward was not a lets go fedex so some mob somewhere can slap my back with xp but instead something akin to a global effect ...(e.g., your party renown has increased, party member b says 'that was a hard fight i think we learned something' and you get xp, ...you feel yourself more advanced at killing this mob type and better at salvaging the parts).

 

Without these global rewards but instead the gamer having to hunt some random mob to thank the party with a exp backslap the games pace is off. You end up with scenarios which I experienced  where I just went exploring and killed things that seemed logical for my characters role to want to have done but then find after a hour of play i achieved nothing until i went and talked to every npc in town to find the ones that would xp backslap me.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Are you turning too? 

 

I am still convinced that objective xp is inherently fairer and easier to implement well than a combination of kill xp and objective xp.

 

I am also incredibly disappointed that based on the beta, "objective xp" seems to mean "quest xp only" for PoE.

 

Edit: I also feel a mix of shame and betrayal at the fact that after months of repeating "no, you kill xp guy are blowing this out of proportion, surely the devs wouldn't be so incompetent as to reduce 'objective xp' to 'you only get xp for completing quests'" I am proven spectacularly wrong by the beta.

 

Anyways, let's get back to our previous discussion which got a bit lost in the noise.

Edited August 21, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[IndiraLightfoot]

Aluminiumtrioxid: Yeah! I'm quite perplexed and taken aback by that. Like SilentWinter wrote earlier: I had expected at least the rudiments of an intricate and new and fresh objective xp system, where xp triggers went off here, there and everywhere! But as things are now, it's only quest xp as far as we know. It's almost bizarre.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we*ll see a dev post or some lines in a patch update, reading something like this:

"Our fine-meshed objective xp system didn't make the cut, so we scrapped it for the beta build we brought to Cologne. In the next patch, we will have the xp system in place, and we really welcome your feedback on it."

 

If not, I have no clue what happened.

Edited August 21, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sarex]

Aluminiumtrioxid: Yeah! I'm quite perplexed and taken aback by that. Like SilentWinter wrote earlier: I had expected at least the rudiments of an intricate and new and fresh objective xp system, where xp triggers went off here, there and everywhere! But as things are now, it's only quest xp as far as we know. It's almost bizarre.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we*ll see a dev post or some lines in a patch update, reading something like this:

"Our fine-meshed objective xp system didn't make the cut, so we scrapped it for the beta build we brought to Cologne. In the next patch, we will have the xp system in place, and we really welcome your feedback on it."

 

If not, I have no clue what happened.

 

That would have been something I would expected to read in the known issues thread, instead they said they wanted to get our feedback on leveling up. Also why is there quest xp then.

 

Strange either way.