No experience from combat

[prince87x]

As I understand they've said they just want combat to be for the fun of it. Taking away experience rewards from enemies just seems like it will leave the combat a bit unrewarding. I feel like I will skip even trying to get in fights because there's not much benefit and mostly detriment. You risk your characters getting hurt/knocked out/killed for what, beating enemies juts for the fun of it? There's always a balance of risk vs. reward in these kinds of games and it seems that balance has been upset.

 

Sure some enemies may drop items, but that'll be the only reward of combat? I think it's a mistake for them not to give any exp. Perhaps cutting the exp gains from enemies down so that you don't gain a ton, but none? That means the only point of the game is to just grind through quests as fast as you can with no reason to kill enemies and skip all unnecessary stuff.

 

It pigeon holes players into playing one specific way. What if players don't want to do many quests? The only way to play if you want to get anywhere is by questing now. There's no just going out and adventuring around killing things as a form of progression.

 

Let's face it, players want to be rewarded and they want to get that reward via the fastest means possible. That means is going to be skipping unnecessary combat and leaves combat in general feeling like a chore that you must do along the path to grinding out these quests.

 

I haven't played the beta myself so this is just as I understand it from what I've heard and read. Just wanted to get my thoughts out about this.

[sparklecat]

It pigeon holes players into playing one specific way. What if players don't want to do many quests? The only way to play if you want to get anywhere is by questing now. There's no just going out and adventuring around killing things as a form of progression.

Well, no.  This isn't Diablo.  If you don't want to do quests, this is probably not the right game for you.

[PrimeJunta]

I haven't played the beta myself so this is just as I understand it from what I've heard and read. Just wanted to get my thoughts out about this.

Then why not post your thoughts in the appropriate thread on the Gameplay and Mechanics forum instead of going OT on this one?

[Forkedman]

It disincentivizes exploration and combat for me. I know I'm better off waiting until I have a quest for tackling an area before actually going out and tackling it. 

I also know that with the exception of named NPC's there isn't any reason not to bypass random encounters with beatles/animals/etc because I'm not going to be rewarded even slightly for it. 

 

With no exp rewarded for encounters it's less rewarding to stray from the critical/quest path and do your own thing.

I doesn't have to be a lot either.  Even minimal exp can make a big difference.

[Osvir]

We can make it relevant though by asking a couple of questions:

What do you feel about no experience gain from combat in the beta? How does it feel not getting any experience from combat? What's your experience in the beta? Do you level up and learn more and more how to handle combat yourself? Are you the one getting all that "combat" experience? Does the character need to get experience from combat? 

This is the first time I'm even thinking about no-combat experience, and I've played tested a couple of hours. In other words: I'm not even paying attention to it, and I'm loving combat (albeit it is a bit technically bugged at the moment).

Edited August 19, 2014 by Osvir

[fruiteater]

The change was made to allow people to chose non combat ways to solve quests since alot of quests seam to have non combat options, if you got XP from kills you would allways have an insentive to kill for no other reason then to get XP. '

 

"As I understand they've said they just want combat to be for the fun of it. Taking away experience rewards from enemies just seems like it will leave the combat a bit unrewarding. I feel like I will skip even trying to get in fights because there's not much benefit and mostly detriment. You risk your characters getting hurt/knocked out/killed for what, beating enemies juts for the fun of it? There's always a balance of risk vs. reward in these kinds of games and it seems that balance has been upset."

 

not really, you will still get crafting materials/items/money.

 

"Sure some enemies may drop items, but that'll be the only reward of combat? I think it's a mistake for them not to give any exp. Perhaps cutting the exp gains from enemies down so that you don't gain a ton, but none? That means the only point of the game is to just grind through quests as fast as you can with no reason to kill enemies and skip all unnecessary stuff."

 

Well the point of the game is to do quests, that is how you advance the story. However i can see the point off not wanting to do all quests every playthrough to get all the xp you want/need.

 

"It pigeon holes players into playing one specific way. What if players don't want to do many quests? The only way to play if you want to get anywhere is by questing now. There's no just going out and adventuring around killing things as a form of progression. "

 

"Let's face it, players want to be rewarded and they want to get that reward via the fastest means possible. That means is going to be skipping unnecessary combat and leaves combat in general feeling like a chore that you must do along the path to grinding out these quests."

 

well the point is to have choice, you can solve quests by not killing creatures and find alternate routes, or kill the and get loot/money and have fun by killing.

 

I haven't played the beta myself so this is just as I understand it from what I've heard and read. Just wanted to get my thoughts out about this.

 

Overall i like the change, its not ideal, but it gives the game a stronger focus on letting people roleplaying their characters. However some people dont like to RP and plays mostly for character progression and loot, so i can see from that point of view how doing lots of quests over and over again seem lika a drag. IMO ideally i would like an option when you start the game where you can enable/disable creature XP, and obviously both modes will have their own XP table changed, so you dont lose out on xp either way you play.

[Orphansmith]

I feel like this keeps coming up because RPGs that focus on combat require a certain amount of enemies killed for balance. And the average gamer doesn't understand that when you're designing based on XP per quest instead of per kill you don't NEED to grind out kobolds to progress. And you can explore the vast wilderness because there's obviously something out there.

 

Quest per XP makes it easier to balance those challenges anyway. You know how many quests a PC should have completed by the time they reach a certain location in the game, which tells you how much in the way of combat options, utility and resources are available. You could do the same thing with enemies, except now you have to ask yourself if the PCs have over-leveled or not, which raises further questions (do you level up monsters with the PCs? Or not? If so, when will they reach the cap? Will combat be boring and unfulfilling past that point?)

 

In my experience, the games I enjoy that DON'T incentivize killing and instead focus on quests tend to be the better RPGs. Vampire Bloodlines and Shadowrun Returns are great examples of story-first. It isn't that combat first is bad, it's that there's a million other options out there (several by Obsidian) and it changes the dynamic of the game. If you really need to grind your way to success because you're afraid of exploring the world without arbitrarily going up in levels then play Mass Effect, The Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, Diablo, World of Warcraft, Divinity: Original Sin, Knights of the Old Republic, Neverwinter Nights, Arcanum, Fallout 1, 2 and 3, Fallout New Vegas, South Park and the Stick of Truth, Chrono Trigger, Etrian Odyssey, Earthbound, Jade Empire, Final Fantasy, Bravely Default, Borderlands, Disgaea or any Pathfinder game currently running at your local friendly gaming store.

 

I'll explore this world without needing a safety belt of XP. Sorry it's apparently a thing for you, better luck next time?

[Aramintai]

I don't like this new system where you don't get XP from kiling things. 

 

First of all, it's not very logical - you learn how to kill things by dispatching them, it's an experience. For that new knowledge you should get XP points. Just like you should get XP from lock picking and trap disarming. Sure, it should diminish in value as you gain higher levels, so there's no point in killing low level mobs, which by then you'll know how to dispatch with ease. It was all done in BG - mobs had static XP value, so killing a wolf at high level gave you a pittance of xp compared to what you needed to accumulate to level up.

 

Second, you won't be getting any XP or level ups during dungeon crawl in PoE - killed a ton of mobs? Nope, no XP for you till you get back to the quest giver in town. That's just stupid, no?

 

Third, this game seems like it will be combat heavy, combat heavy games should give XP for combat. I can understand no XP from combat in a game like Planescape: Torment, which you could beat without engaging in combat at all, leveling up just from dialogues and quest completion. But it doesn't seem that combat will be avoidable in PoE.

 

Which leads me to the fourth point - all stats should be equally effective both in combat and during social encounters. Some of them right now are lacking, like perception and resolve. Nobody wants to make a socialite character whom you have to ride on the shoulders of more combat effecitve characters till next social encounter. Stats are in need of tweaking.

[AdaMusic]

Killing "stuff" should not be rewarded if there is not a logical reason to kill a certain "stuff". I like this approach.

[Sarex]

Well, no.  This isn't Diablo.  If you don't want to do quests, this is probably not the right game for you.

 

Oh I could have sworn that this was a game for anyone who liked all the IE games (IWD included), must have misunderstood them...

 

This is still primarily a combat game. There are other games being made for those who want to do pacifist runs and similar.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Sarex

[Eldram]

I'm a big fan of the exp system, was concerned at the start but really enjoy it now. I never liked playing the stealth or diplomacy role because you would always end up with more exp by just killing everything. Seemed to take away from the whole point of role playing certain character types, the freedom on quest resolution with the new system is excellent. And as far as not needed to kill enemies on the map, I am sure quest will be hidden behind groups of wilderness enemies and with the stronghold gold will be much more important (I hope) almost acting as a gear/stronghold exp.

Edited August 19, 2014 by davebeaudoin@live.ca

[Silent Winter]

Second, you won't be getting any XP or level ups during dungeon crawl in PoE - killed a ton of mobs? Nope, no XP for you till you get back to the quest giver in town. That's just stupid, no?

You get xp for completing objectives - not just when you report back to the quest-giver - go kill the ogre and see.

[sparklecat]

 

Well, no.  This isn't Diablo.  If you don't want to do quests, this is probably not the right game for you.

 

Oh I could have sworn that this was a game for anyone who liked all the IE games (IWD included), must have misunderstood them...

 

This is still primarily a combat game. There are other games being made for those who want to do pacifist runs and similar.

 

You seem to be under the impression that the only reason to kill things is for the reward, XP or otherwise.  I plan to kill plenty of things when it fits for my character to do so; the options aren't "creature XP" or "pacifist run".

[Amentep]

 

Taking away experience rewards from enemies just seems like it will leave the combat a bit unrewarding.

 

Wouldn't the dropped loot from the bodies be the reward?

[Aramintai]

I think the devs are just lazy and don't wan't to balance XP tables for mobs, which is a pain. Having to figure out XP values just for quests is much easier.

[Sarex]

Wouldn't the dropped loot from the bodies be the reward?

 

Maybe in the first few hours of the game, after that most of the loot gets left behind. Though with the bottomless stash I guess you don't have to worry about filling your inventory so you can in essence pick everything up, but then again the merchants seem to have a limited budget so I guess it would still be just filler for your inventory.

 

You seem to be under the impression that the only reason to kill things is for the reward, XP or otherwise.  I plan to kill plenty of things when it fits for my character to do so; the options aren't "creature XP" or "pacifist run".

 

Oh so you think the beetles will care that your character doesn't want/plan to kill them?

Edited August 19, 2014 by Sarex

[AdaMusic]

 

 

Well, no.  This isn't Diablo.  If you don't want to do quests, this is probably not the right game for you.

 

Oh I could have sworn that this was a game for anyone who liked all the IE games (IWD included), must have misunderstood them...

 

This is still primarily a combat game. There are other games being made for those who want to do pacifist runs and similar.

 

You seem to be under the impression that the only reason to kill things is for the reward, XP or otherwise.  I plan to kill plenty of things when it fits for my character to do so; the options aren't "creature XP" or "pacifist run".

 

Well said! Then again, if I don't want to do quests and just explore, is there any way for me to gain enough experience to allow this?

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Taking away experience rewards from enemies just seems like it will leave the combat a bit unrewarding.

 

Wouldn't the dropped loot from the bodies be the reward?

 

 

Unfortunately not - it's not even close, I'm afraid. See the appropriate thread where the discussion is alive and kicking right now.

[sparklecat]

 

You seem to be under the impression that the only reason to kill things is for the reward, XP or otherwise.  I plan to kill plenty of things when it fits for my character to do so; the options aren't "creature XP" or "pacifist run".

 

Oh so you think the beetles will care that your character doesn't want/plan to kill them?

 

What?

[Silent Winter]

can't play the beta myself but judging from recent posts in this thread:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66528-experience-point-mechanics-fighting-enemies/page-27

 

it seems it really is just quest-xp (as opposed to 'objective-xp' for doing things) - in which case, I don't like that you can only be rewarded xp for completing certain things.

I honestly thought we'd be rewarded 'wow, you found a hidden cave' xp or 'way to solve those puzzles' xp or even 'didn't get killed while spelunking' xp

Missed opportunity with the whole objective-xp vs. kill-xp thing

[Silent Winter]

Edit: So many double-posts lately

Edited August 19, 2014 by Silent Winter

[archangel979]

Just let killing creatures reward a tiny amount of XP so people have a false sense of gaining something and be done with it.

[Amentep]

 

 

 

Taking away experience rewards from enemies just seems like it will leave the combat a bit unrewarding.

 

Wouldn't the dropped loot from the bodies be the reward?

 

 

Unfortunately not - it's not even close, I'm afraid. See the appropriate thread where the discussion is alive and kicking right now.

 

 

I've been a part of that discussion; I do not think Prince87x has AND since the Beta is now live I was hoping testers could comment on the game directly with regards to whether the loot seems adequate.

 

I've said repeatedly that - at least for me - whether QuestXP works in lieu of kill XP is going to depend on whether the combat is fun and whether loot drops make the player feel rewarded such that they don't miss the KillXP.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Amentep

[Sarex]

What?

 

A large part of this game is killing creatures.

[mrmonocle]

No XP from trash mobs is fine by me, completing a dungeon and killing bosses should yield some XP though.